 Poster: A snowHead
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David@traxvax and PG, I think we are all agreed that entry to a training scheme is usually restricted by some test. This is a Good Thing. The dispute is over whether the Slalom test is appropriate. After medical school I had to pass a test (medical finals) to start practicing (interesting word) as a doctor. Most of us think the test appropriate. An inapropriate test is one used to shortlist candidates for consultant posts (I feel a rant coming on). Trainees are shortlisted primarily on the number of published research papers, NOT on their ability to diagnose and treat patients or their ability to teach (both key components of consultants job). What has research got to do with clinical albility? None. But counting papers on CVs is an easy convenient screening test. I see the slalom test in this catagory. A good test of slaloming ability no doubt, but is it a sensible test for entry into Ski Teacher Training School?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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PG, but done properly wouldn't it save money. Lesser ability (speedwise) teachers get the infants, beginners etc, get paid less and have a lower certification. Whilst the hot dogs get private lessons or top classes with more pay.
What's the point in having race level teachers watch people sidestepping for a couple of days?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| DavidS wrote: |
| The editor of PisteHors has been in touch with a request not to breach the site's copyright by copying and pasting material from the site to snowHeads. |
Thanks for that David.
I'm more than pleased for people to quote reasonable sections of any article or to summarize here but please link back to the original story. I think Snowheads provides a valuable and much needed discussion forum for skiers. Some people have done sterling work digging out and linking to interesting stories.
The person who covered this story for us (incidentally a French and English qualified lawyer), thought that the court imposed a tougher fine than requested due to the attitude shown by the defendants, particularly trying to pretend not to speak French when questioned by the Gendarmerie. I have asked her to try and get some more information from the court.
My comment about other businesses was simply a warning to make sure that your paperwork is in order if you are operating in France. People marvel at the infrastructure, such as the TGV, but this is largely paid for by taxes. For example, 55% of a train ticket is paid by taxpayers in France. Setting up a business, such as a travel company, that uses the infrastructure while repatriating profits to the UK to take advantage of lower taxes or worse, not paying tax anywhere, isn't going to make you very popular with the locals.
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What is successful race skiing? The ability to ski fast, sure. But what exactly does that mean?
- It means that you can stay on your feet and ski fast in all conditions - soft, rutted snow after dozens, sometimes more than 100 skiers have been down the same course before you. Or hard-pack artifical snow close to ice in patches. Sometimes going from blinding sunlight to poor visibility or vice versa in the same run. Ski a slalom or GS by feel where you can barely see beyond the next gate.
- it means you can carve properly. It means you can judge trajectory to the millimetre. It means you are physically and mentally strong.
- It means that you have put in hundreds and hundreds of hours of free skiing, off-piste, jumping, carving, exercising, practising other sports, skiing on one ski, etc etc etc for every 1/100th of a second you'll ever spend on a race course.
- It means that all the above has been overseen by a club/national team instructor, trained to the highest level.
No it does not mean that you can teach. But a teacher unable to demonstrate all of the above to a high level would be virtually useless to all but beginners. And if you can do all of the above, well there's no reason whatsoever why you shouldn't ski through a few gates reasonably quickly!
I'll shut up now and go and do something useful..... 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| DavidS wrote: |
| On his website, btw, Simon Butler says he's a grade 1, ISIA |
I've also found James Barrett-Boyce's website, where he promises "at least 2 hours of tuition per day with our fully qualified British instructors."
http://www.skibb.com/ski_index.html
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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PG, I was nodding in agreement as I read your posting: let's have a beer . It is just a small matter of degree.
But if you know an instructor who can demonstrate all you mention and get me to do it, can I have his number - trying to deal with those ruts after all the other guys have gone down is always my undoing.
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Jonpim, A beer?! That's not a beer! When you've been over here as long as I have, this is what you dream about!!
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 26-03-04 20:19; edited 1 time in total
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PG, Hey, I was cycling round there last weekend  . Are you on the piccy?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I wish! Didn't often get that far north (Richmond area), but when I lived in Harrogate/Knaresborough in my youth Theakstons pubs were the ones to look out for..... that piccy was from the http://www.fatbadgers.co.uk/ guide to good pubs....
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| davidof wrote: |
I have asked her to try and get some more information from the court.
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Well our Bonneville correspondant must have found a cybercafe somewhere because she's just posted the judgement. I have less sympathy for the two guys and think the tone of the original PisteHors piece was about right. Neither of the two accused had the relevant BASI exam or equivalent and Barrett-Boyce was also running an unlicensed bar.
This is not just an anglo-french issue but important to those BASI qualified instructors who have made efforts to be in compliance with local regulations.
http://www.pistehors.com/comments/248_0_1_0_C/
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Davidof. I tried to access the BASI membership list. Their website has an apparent link, but it's dead. A call to their office would certainly establish their qualifications. What do you mean by "relevant BASI exam"?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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PG, when I took thetest in Italy, the GS course was there, but it was not clocked.
It depends on the policy of the moment, years before (before the rapid gates, that is) there was also a Slalom test, and both were clocked.
The whole point of the gate run is to prove you are an effective skier, that is, you can understand how/where to turn to stay in a given course.
For the record, I did not pass.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Fri 26-03-04 17:51; edited 1 time in total
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| What do you mean by "relevant BASI exam"? |
The judgement from the French court said they were not in possession of either the French national ski instructors certificate or any equivalent certificate from a foreign body (diplomes étrangers admis en équivalance).
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You know it makes sense.
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Yes, they probably hadn't done the 'Equivalence' speed test. Some years ago, a whole group of BASI people were granted the status without doing the test, on account of their age and maturity (or maybe it was just age !). I think it was some sort of deal. Whether that concession is still given, I don't know.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I'm getting confused... Davidof states that the pair are lying about their qualifications, but DG is saying they probably do have BASI or whatever, just not the equivalence bit? Or have I misunderstood?
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Poster: A snowHead
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I don't think Davidof made that accusation. The two defendants may not have misrepresented themselves at all. It does appear that they didn't hold the Equivalence, but may have been highly gualified BASI people. I don't know.
The crux of the matter is this, as I see it. As a BASI 3 I can teach in Scotland, Andorra, the Val d'Aosta in Italy (EU country) and other places. It's also said that people without any teaching qualifications at all continue to teach skiing in certain Alpine countries when demand can't be met in high season.
The French continue to hold out for very high (and in my view irrelevant) standards for what is an exercise in instructing people to snowplough, sideslip, traverse, do parallel turns and have lots of fun. Predominantly beginner and intermediate classes. All on piste. It's not rocket science.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Simon Butler says he's a grade 1, ISIA. James Barrett-Boyce says his instructors are "fully qualified."Davidof says: "Neither of the two accused had the relevant BASI exam or equivalent."
Are these statements compatible?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hi David.
There are two debates here. Whether the Megève instructors were operating illegally and what qualifications/skills you need to be a ski instructor.
I can confirm that two instructors were not in possession of the relevant Basi qualification required to teach in France.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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For goodness sake, if someone actually knows what BASI level they actually were and if they'd done the Eurotest the for the love of Mike just say so instead whether they're fully approved or not.
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Thanks davidof, got that cleared up.
Back to qualifications. Are there rules in UK for instructor qualifications. How about teachers on the dry slopes. What qualifications do they need? (if any).
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(sorry, jonpim, ise - it's friday afternoon and i'm feeling a little dense) but what is grade 1, ISIA?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ise wrote: |
| For goodness sake, if someone actually knows what BASI level they actually were and if they'd done the Eurotest the for the love of Mike just say so instead whether they're fully approved or not. |
They don't hold the: International Ski Teacher Diploma (ex-Basi 1).
It is not a grey area. Either you hold the above exam (or an equivalent) and can work in France as a ski instructor or you don't.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Fri 26-03-04 17:22; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And I'm sure all other regions/provinces in Italy must have this, after all it's Europe.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Jonpim,
Now, qualifications here in the UK. There are indeed seperate qualifications you can get, not administered by BASI (BASI being on real snow, as such), administered by the ESC. Start at "Club Instructor", and upwards. There is not an equivialnce between the two, ESC and BASI. The ESC does theirs for all "artifical" slopes - including snow domes. (Hope i have that right. wimper, wimper)
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| davidof wrote: |
| ise wrote: |
| For goodness sake, if someone actually knows what BASI level they actually were and if they'd done the Eurotest the for the love of Mike just say so instead whether they're fully approved or not. |
They don't hold the: International Ski Teacher Diploma (ex-Basi 1).
It is not a grey area. Either you hold the above exam (or an equivalent) and can work in France as a ski instructor or you don't. |
I've known of Simon Butler for some years and was under the impression he was a BASI 1, which under current rules would include a Eurotest which you can take at BASI 2. BASI 1 still requires carte professional and attestation d'equivalence though does it not ? So just having BASI 1 would not have been enough. One assumes his operation did not have Centre de Formation status which in turn means that the BASi 1 and 2's he was employing must be on dodgy ground also.
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You know it makes sense.
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I have a Bronze Swimming Certificate (30m). What does that entitle me to do?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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masopa, Should be quite useful in some of the lower altitude resorts over the next month or so.... 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
| Some years ago, a whole group of BASI people were granted the status without doing the test, on account of their age and maturity (or maybe it was just age !). I think it was some sort of deal. Whether that concession is still given, I don't know. |
David Goldsmith, No that concession is no longer available in France. Those who received it still have to do refresher courses every now and again under the French system as well. A snowHead member I know is a BASI instructor in France with equivalence, and I'm sure she could clear up the exact current situation. I'll mail her - don't think she's seen this thread.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 26-03-04 21:26; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Jonpim,
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| now I've got him the wrong drink. Will this do? |
Is that particular anaesthetic administered free by the NHS?? We'd have to pay up front over here  (PS That'll do fine! Next round's on me....)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Goldsmith,
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| The French continue to hold out for very high (and in my view irrelevant) standards for what is an exercise in instructing people to snowplough, sideslip, traverse, do parallel turns and have lots of fun. Predominantly beginner and intermediate classes. All on piste. It's not rocket science. |
As you have not mentioned teaching ability in the above comment, nor do I below. So my thoughts just concern skiing standards.
They've brought in kids with 'A' levels to teach basics in some subjects in UK schools now, someone told me? I know that I would prefer my kids to first learn a foreign language from someone who can actually speak it with skill and who possesses a reasonable degree, rather than from someone who probably can hold only a limited conversation in the language in question. A post-'A' level undergraduate will make quite a number of mistakes unbeknown to their pupils, unaware of the subtleties involved.
Using your argument I could teach beginners to ski myself. I can do all you mention. But I know a few French and British instructors who would fall about laughing at the thought. With justification! There's nothing wrong with having high standards in my book. It provides a margin of safety in all regulated professions. I know this is something that some people in Britain find hard to accept, but faced with a choice, I'd say the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. And I reckon if you asked 100 ex-pat Brits in France you'd find a majority think the same way. If a poll of UK-based Brits who had no experience of living in the country concerned thought otherwise, well, big deal. It wouldn't have a great deal more value than my opinions about the system in Outer Mongolia!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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PG sorry about not saying this sooner but I've been out most of the day, anyway re your comment about ski instructors getting different pay, I would say that those handeling the smallest kids should get very big pay checks, I know wht they are expected to do, put up with tantrums and tears, make sure they've all been to the toilet and when they have been make sure theyre clothes are all done up and so on, easiest time has got to be had by those who teach early intermediates
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
The French continue to hold out for very high (and in my view irrelevant) standards for what is an exercise in instructing people to snowplough, sideslip, traverse, do parallel turns and have lots of fun. Predominantly beginner and intermediate classes. All on piste. It's not rocket science. |
I've only ever had a morning of instruction/guide in France (and that was from a british instructor in Val d'isere - she was pretty good incidently) so I'm not sure I can comment on that. However whenever I've been to Canada I've always done lessons and would have to disagree that lessons (and hence instructors) are only required for early stages of learning. The lessons I've done recently are not intermediate lessons to learn to side-slip, snowplough, etc, but advanced lessons in how to jump off cornices, ski trees, bumps, steeps, crud, gates, etc including training by ex Canadian Team racers and coaches. I'd rather not be taught these by someone who has only just started teaching!!
In Canada, the instructor for my level would have to hold CSIA 3 or 4(the highest). This is good for me because I know that without a doubt I'll get a decent instructor (and this has always proved the case  )
To hold a level 4 I believe you have to ski gates (of various sizes) within a certain time of the course pacesetter.
Spending 3 days being taught by an ex-world cup GS skiier really is an experience, she skiied absolutely stunningly and really did wonders for my skiing (both on and off piste) - though keeping up was somewhat impossible!! 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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You're quite right. I was certainly not advocating that semi-qualified instructors should be teaching more advanced skiers. The point I'm making is that a high proportion of ski instruction concentrates on people - beginners and intermediates - who don't need a teacher who can ski a fast time in a slalom / giant slalom, as proposed by the French.
In fact, hotshots sometimes get bored by teaching inexperienced skiers. Modest, patient, good teachers are usually more appropriate.
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PG, phew! I thought you were going to say you didn't put ice in it.
I can see we are never going to quite agree about skills required for a ski instructor.
No one has mentioned physique. A female friend of mine always asks for a young man with a small tight bum to follow . I like a filthy sense of humour.
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The last thing I want is a fit ski instructoress. I'll be staring at her bum all day and certainly won't be concentrating on my skiing!
It's not deliberate - it's genetic!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| PG wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Some years ago, a whole group of BASI people were granted the status without doing the test, on account of their age and maturity (or maybe it was just age !). I think it was some sort of deal. Whether that concession is still given, I don't know. |
David Goldsmith, No that concession is no longer available in France. Those who received it still have to do refresher courses every now and again under the French system as well. A snowHead member I know is a BASI instructor in France with equivalence, and I'm sure she could clear up the exact current situation. I'll mail her - don't think she's seen this thread. |
I can tell you the refreher situation, it's once every two years and it's a couple of days. This is based on the new model, how the old BASI 1's without Eurotests were dealt with though I don't know.
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David Goldsmith,
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The point I'm making is that a high proportion of ski instruction concentrates on people - beginners and intermediates - who don't need a teacher who can ski a fast time in a slalom / giant slalom, as proposed by the French. |
The bottom line is that unless you're out of condition (age, illness, lack of fitness) there is nothing to stop you skiing a relatively fast GS/slalom. Except if your skiing isn't up to scratch! Perhaps you can give me a direct answer why a young skier fresh out of training can't carve his way down a course without falling over or taking his/her time....? But I think I've asked that before, and I'm still waiting for an answer....
| Quote: |
| In fact, hotshots sometimes get bored by teaching inexperienced skiers. Modest, patient, good teachers are usually more appropriate |
Good (and therefore able to ski fast) skier = hotshot = immodest = lack of patience!! Are you serious?!
Sure, fast skiers, old skiers, young skiers fresh out training, all can get bored. The point you are trying to make?
It's all a matter of emphasis. Teaching skills are very important - of course I agree with you there. But you simply haven't explained why a properly trained and fit young skier should for some peculiar reason be incapable of skiing fast.
D G Orf,
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| ....easiest time has got to be had by those who teach early intermediates |
Don't know about that - I've heard instructors say they get by far the greatest pleasure out of teaching the younger, advanced skiers. But I get your point about pay for teaching hordes of little monsters. Often a task for the newest recruits, with lots of energy and enthusiasm though - who know that it's part of the learning curve.... or sometimes for the older instructor who no longer has the speed/condition for anything more demanding, and is happy to still be working.
Jonpim,
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| A female friend of mine always asks for a young man with a small tight bum to follow |
... Well she'll have few problems in France, given the physical demands that go hand in hand with the skill needed to ski fast! Physique and fitness are something I mentioned as part of the parcel needed to be a good, fast skier.
Masopa, I take it your new fiancée is not a snowHead
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FAQ
