Falling, failing and fear

A snowHead

Elston, I've had many lessons and I don't aspire to anything beyond bettering my abilities and I'm a far better border than skier. I'm posting this from a basis of conflicting experiences within lessons and a background in sports coaching and rather elderly bio-mechanics education.

This was thrown up for exactly the type of discussion we're having. Where instructors can tear me a new ringpiece as and if I deserve it . . . though as it seems my thoughts accord with much of the BASI principles.

Thank you for your input.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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I think an exchange between GrahamN and the late-lamented veeeight would add a certain je ne sais quoi to this thread. wink

And perhaps skimottaret too, with me as the stooge for them all to take pops at! Toofy Grin

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rob@rar, I used to love teaching little kids trampolining and early gymnastics, can't beat the enthusiasm of the wee boogers . . . not sure I'd have the energy for it these days wink

Appreciate your comments and the insight to the way things are changing. What prompted this most of all is an old article in the British Journal of Psychology about age related brain chemistry changes and fear as we age. More older people are joining us on the slopes and I'm wondering if the system is adequately flexible to cater for them properly.

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Masque, I believe that you can buy the basi manual before your course. It could be worthy of a read.

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You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

rob@rar, Interesting as I see my alignment through a virtual spot between my legs and my legs are adjustable around that. I think this must be a transference from boarding and telemarking as I stay stable and balanced from the hips up while I use boot pressure and fore/aft movement to adjust the mass insertion point in my skis once I have a edge running nice and stable in the track. This may be why Spyderman says I have an 'individual' technique . . . and one I may have to change.

A snowHead

I Masque, don't over think it!!

I don't recall any option on the l1 booking form to say you already have the manual!!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Masque, sounds to me like you are massively over-complicating it, perhaps because of your cross-discipline experience? KISS and focus on what is important (eg edge angle if you are carving) rather than stuff which, at best, plays an insignificant role in recreational skiing.

I have no idea what a mass insertion point is.

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rob@rar, not sure I should tell you wink

Simply, its the position on the ski or board where the forces acting on you, the skier/boarder are focused.. I could draw it for you but as you say, I'm over complicating things. I do see the interconnections between all elements of a skier in motion and this thread tells me that I have to be able to distill what I see into far more succinct terms . . . or just STFU wink

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rob@rar, your feet are just where you connect to your skis and when stood at a standstill the centre of mass is between them, where all the different forces end up can be very different once you're moving. Don't sweat it. I'm just over complicating.

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Masque, OK, I will erase it from my memory. It sounded like it was heading towards the hole that the great Inner Ski Tip Lead thread ended up in, so best avoided.

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rob@rar, About that . . . . I do miss vee8 Twisted Evil

Again cheers for your input, have a good night.

Masque, cheers! It's always good to think things through to clarify one's thoughts.

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Here you go Masque, Smile

Physics Of Skiing — Closer Look At Carving And Sidecut Edge Penetration

For a given tilt angle φ and sidecut radius RSC, the maximum amount of reverse camber occurs when the sidecut edge presses into the snow. To understand this consider the following. When a straight ski (with no camber) is edged into the snow at an angle φ, only the tip and tail part of the ski are touching the snow, and there is a gap in the middle of the ski between the sidecut edge and the snow surface. This gap is greater for a smaller sidecut radius, and this gap is smaller for a larger sidecut radius. The maximum amount of reverse camber occurs when this gap is closed — in other words, when the sidecut edge presses into the snow. So the larger the gap, the more reverse camber is possible, since the ski can bend more in the middle before the sidecut edge presses into the snow.

A ski with a smaller sidecut radius (and larger gap between sidecut edge and snow surface), can accommodate a greater amount of reverse camber, which means it can carve smaller radius turns. A ski with a larger sidecut radius (and smaller gap between sidecut edge and snow surface), can accommodate a lesser amount of reverse camber, which means it is best suited for carving larger radius turns.

Therefore in summary, skis with a larger sidecut radius RSC are best suited for carved turns with a small tilt angle φ (since they can only accommodate a lesser degree of reverse camber). And skis with a smaller sidecut radius RSC work well for larger tilt angles φ (since they can accommodate a greater degree of reverse camber). This tells us that carved turns of small radius RT are best executed with skis that have a smaller RSC, since the corresponding tilt angle φ can be high. But carved turns of large radius RT are best executed with skis that have a larger RSC, since the corresponding tilt angle φ can only be low.

Given the complexity of all these inter-related factors, the ability of a skier to make a purely carved turn comes down to his ability to recognize the terrain and make adjustments, based on the factors just mentioned. Clearly, carving adds substantial complexity to the physics of skiing.

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kitenski, I'm perfectly clear on the 'cone' representation of bending a ski with sidecut and how insertion angle moves and defines the position of the ski on the cone's radius. As you say there's more going on as there are intersecting radii. But I don't simply ride the sidecut to carve a turn. I load the front of the ski going in and the tail coming out. It is a crossover from boarding. Clipping my heel down to full alpine will be 'interesting' ...

It's a bit different in telemark where the nose loading is much less pronounced and the sidecut with it's insertion angle is more as you've described for changing turn radius in a carve.

DISCLAIMER - I know nothing about all this except for my own learning experience.

I've waded through this essay of a thread to this point, and as I did so a number of things occurred to me - so in no particular order the following points are these thoughts:

1. I will vouch for the fact that you don't make any progress until you relax on your skis. I spent 2 weeks over two years without lessons - then a break of around 15 years and three weeks over three years with lessons and still was only snow ploughing down the kids ski garden and easiest nursery slope on the hill. The reason for this abject failure was I couldn't get the fear out of my head, and I suspect I was trying too hard whilst being too tense. Viciously unproductive combination. I didn't loosen up until a SH took a day of their valuable time and put some mileage under my skis dragging me around the easiest slopes of VT. In fact I think Masque, may have been witness to one of my first accidentally carved turns (which was a pure fluke and happened that week), but resulted in a huge grin - I can still remember him commenting on it Laughing

. It was only after I had relaxed on the skis and loosened up that I got any benefit from lessons - every penny I had spent until that point in time had been a waste of money.

2. There have been odd occasions since when I have been gripped with fear - in particular last year on the Col de l'audzin in VT in literally zero vis on the really steep bit in the middle with the bend in it - that lone section which makes it the black side of a red amongst its majority which is only a blue grade red. In that situation the only thing that got me down was keying into the feel of the snow under my skis - it was the only way I could tell which way was 'down' and I literally took it one Z shaped turn at a time and stopped between each one. At that point in time the only sense that was functioning was the feel of the snow on my skis.

3. I think you can't do difficult stuff until you can do easy stuff instinctively i.e. when you become unconsciously competent. I think the 4 stages of learning that you talk about in management traing really apply to skiing.

As pinched from wikipaedia:

1.Unconscious incompetence - The individual does not understand or know how to do something and does not necessarily recognize the deficit. They may deny the usefulness of the skill. The individual must recognise their own incompetence, and the value of the new skill, before moving on to the next stage.[2] The length of time an individual spends in this stage depends on the strength of the stimulus to learn.[3]
2.Conscious incompetence - Though the individual does not understand or know how to do something, he or she does recognize the deficit, as well as the value of a new skill in addressing the deficit. The making of mistakes can be integral to the learning process at this stage.[4]
3.Conscious competence - The individual understands or knows how to do something. However, demonstrating the skill or knowledge requires concentration. It may be broken down into steps, and there is heavy conscious involvement in executing the new skill.[3]
4.Unconscious competence - The individual has had so much practice with a skill that it has become "second nature" and can be performed easily. As a result, the skill can be performed while executing another task. The individual may be able to teach it to others, depending upon how and when it was learnt

I particularly noticed this whilst riding on Sunday.

Now, I can ride horses. I've ridden horses since I was 4 years old and had lessons for over 12 years. I've recently gone back to riding once every two weeks after virtually not riding for about 5 years and 10 years since doing it regularly.

I have discovered that fitness to do the sport is important. Technically I could ride, but after the break my body wouldn't do it as well as I remembered. This walloped my confidence.

I've been back doing it now for about 5 mths, finally the muscles are starting to respond, and I have felt confident enough to jump again. I was very much aware last Sunday that I was controlling the horse instintively whilst I concentrated on controlling the approach to the jump. I didn't have to think about how to do it, I was just instinctively 'feeling' and responding to the movements of the horse under me whilst I added in the new equation of the jump. I certainly couldn't have contemplated the added complication of the jump without being able to instinctively control the horse and I couldn't do this until my body got used to doing it again. Skiing is similar - I couldn't have done that zero vis. pitch without the ability to feel what was under the skis which happily I am just starting to get to grips with. However, it didn't start to happen until I had first relaxed on the skis, second been given some instruction and third got lots of mileage under the skis. How this fits in with the OP I've no idea!! Laughing

As I said above - just some random thoughts - nothing more.

You know it makes sense.

right, read the first post in its entirety and skimmed some of the rest.

the way i read it

take new skier up to the top of the grand couluior, face, birds of prey (insert other steepish slope)
get them to either neck a bottle of 40% proof or smoke a big fat reefer
push them of the top and tell them to relax.

like your teaching style.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I think quite a few things that you said means "mastering the conditions" so yes, there is a way to "enforce the dominance over nature". I disagree that this is the first skill to learn though for a total beginner but usually with instruction and practice it's acquired by skiers over their carreers if they wish to. You adapt technique according to snow and terrain tyou are on but it takes time to learn the technique.

A snowHead

never summer, Like all skills there are developmental steps. I'm not saying that peeps should or need to be taught only this at the beginning but that it is an essential primary skill to be 'introduced' before we start making turns. We never dominate nature, we only adapt and survive it by becoming better skilled, people who think otherwise are frequently killed. Acquiring an enhanced ability to adapt to and slide relaxed in all conditions should not be left till the latter part of instruction to 'begin' learning it.

A snowHead

Just to chuck another factor in; until I had my boots fitted properly, I couldn't feel anything under my feet - now I can.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

This is a heck of a thread.

Someone made the point that little kids do everything by feel, and the analogy with nippers learning to walk is quite a good one. Nobody teaches us to walk (which as a biomechanical skill is remarkable), but everyone's pretty good at it. By age 2 most kids want to walk along narrow walls, and jump off things. Pretty much all of that behaviour is just them freestyling and playing and figuring what can and can't be done for themselves. And sometimes they really really mess up and bloody their noses and smash teeth out. But they don't really care, have a bit of a cry, and then carry on doing loony things as if nothing happened. Falling, failing, and not a lot of fear. Followed by success.

So superficially at least, I totally get what Masque is saying. And I think it's approximately ^ that.

Interesting to contrast skiing and snowboarding perhaps. Skiing is very much taught as a by-rote skill, where you later build upon the learned skills and gradually dial in the 'feel' aspect. Lots of snowboarders are self taught and do the whole thing on eye/feet to brain feel alone, right from day 1. I've seen threads on here before with boarders saying things like 'I was thinking about learning skiing, but I can't be doing with all those silly drills'. This contrast is maybe odd since - at heart - skiing and boarding are exactly the same. I guess you feel a bit more through your feet with flexible bindings and softish boots, even as an amateur.

I also think skiing beginners have a bit more sense of feel than they might sometimes imagine. You quite often see shoddy skiers very nearly stack it, and then somehow rescue the situation by lifting a ski or chucking their shoulders round, or putting a pole down, etc. In the blink of an eye, they're doing something quite clever instinctively that was never taught to them - even when in a fear/stress situation.

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Masque, Yes, adapting is a better word than dominating, but we are talking about the same thing here. You can't dominate the nature of course but you can dominate the conditions if you have the tecnique can change it according to what and where you are skiing. Ice, powder, crud, slush, bumps, rocky traverses... To adapt technique a skier needs to possess various skills first and they cannot be acquired all at once, that's why it's left to 'later stages'. It's a gradual process. There is nothing to adapt if all the skier can do is one type of turn with the same edge set etc. But for all of us there was time when one type of turn was all we knew and could execute.

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Mosha Marc, you should be experiencing skiing through and with your whole body.

never summer, I have to dissagree though it may just be semantics in that the mountain doesn't move, we do and all we leave is a track that demonstrates our skill and ability to survive. The mountain and snow don't give a dam about us or our pretensions of mastery. wink

No skill can be acquired at once, I've not claimed so. What I'm advocating is that skiers need practical experience of absorbing minor and greater terrain variations and with this the ability to relax, soften their joints and lose the rigid tension in their muscles. Beginners get horribly fatigued learning to snowplow across the hill. I really believe that the speed of progression in learning will be enhanced if more emphasis is placed on exercises to relax the musculature and improve feedback recognition and response right from the point before a beginner even clips in for the first time.

Boarders are no different, though to progress much beyond the basic bulldozer you will have to learn to relax a little but how many of us do you see wobbling, bent waisted at far too high speed with knees locked out?

I'm told above that things are changing with instruction and I believe them . . . with just a wee pinch of salt.

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Pedantica, far too much editing rolling eyes

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Pedantica, and mine are never relevant! Toofy Grin

Masque, Knees locked out and being bent waisted is a bad technique, and I doubt any instructors would teach that. The issue is that often new skiers abandon instruction too soon, trying to perfect what they've learned (too little), and develop bad technique as a result. Still I believe that the most important thing for a beginner is to learn the proper balance so that he could keep his feet under him. Once this is learned, he will feel more in control and relaxing legs will be easier. It's hard to relax when you are afraid of skis running away from you. So this one should be tackled first. Lot of people on the hill are sitting on their tails, and I am not sure relaxing will help them much.

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never summer, and that's why I advocate walking pace bunny slope that flares out to nothing or a big cushion to straightline into while learning posture and position for both skier and boarder.

Instructors don't teach it but we see it all the time. In boarding the first thing most of us are taught before going straight up a green is scooting just to get to the lift . . . and we spend the next two days playing bulldozers and staring at a spot two feet in front of our feet rolling eyes

All that can be eliminated with a morning in the kids playground.

Help!!

Falling, failing and fear

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