No bad aimed at the OP or others spreading the word of caution but I think you have to keep a sense perspective here. Most days we ski we see stacks pf people skiing to the side off pistes. If you look at the number of skier runs compared to the number of ava's it will be tiny. To say you should never ski off piste without ava gear or a guide is IMHO way OTT.
I agree. It's about managing risk in a sensible way. The more you understand the danger signs (by doing courses, or reading books, or online resources, etc) the better you will understand that risk. What this sad tale illustrates is that "skiing by the side of the piste" is not a guaranteed way of avoiding avalanche danger, and we should continue to look for the danger signs all the time not just when we are "properly off-piste".
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Layne, of course but the vast majority ducking off the side won't know the difference between a fine time to do it and a potentially disastrous one. What you need to be safe isn't really equipment but as I hope everyone would agree knowledge and the ability to apply it. The avalanche you don't get caught in can't hurt you and that at it's essence is almost entirely down to the terrain a person chooses to ski on any given day. In this case the equipment was an important factor in the guys survival though and that is why you carry it. For the times when you make bad decisions which result in bad consequences. I wouldn't ski in potential avalanche terrain without companion rescue kit not because I expect anyone to get avalanched but to deal with the consequences should it happen, most of the risk mitigation is actually in decision making. Guides exist because they typically have superior knowledge and mountaincraft to help those that don't.
So if you don't rate your knowledge grab a guide and if you're going to ski in avalanche terrain take companion rescue kit. Both will increase the odds of you coming through a long skiing career in one piece, particularly if you ski off-piste for most of it! The latter point I'd argue is a moral responsibility as well as the majority of the kit is there to help you save other people not your own protection.
Anyway the point of linking this originally wasn't to suggest you strictly needed avi gear or a guide (you shouldn't need either if all your decisions are always correct) but that avalanches do occur in what a lot of people, particularly those who stick mostly on piste would think are pretty benign slopes right next to them.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
Layne wrote:
No bad aimed at the OP or others spreading the word of caution but I think you have to keep a sense perspective here. Most days we ski we see stacks pf people skiing to the side off pistes. If you look at the number of skier runs compared to the number of ava's it will be tiny. To say you should never ski off piste without ava gear or a guide is IMHO way OTT.
I well sort of agree, having a sensible perspective is one thing, on the guide issue if your going off piste close to the piste then no its not always necessary to have a guide, however as rob@rar, points out
Quote:
It's about managing risk in a sensible way. The more you understand the danger signs (by doing courses, or reading books, or online resources, etc) the better you will understand that risk.
This helps greatly and having all the avalanche kit with you is not a replacement for having awareness of the situation you are putting yourself into.
On this incident IMHO I would guess that the person who got caught saw a line that no one or very very few people had taken and thought that looks nice probably was following his mates who skied the more mellow line off to the side and he took the steeper option, on the pics there does not look to be many lines straight into the steeper section. It was a bad decision to take, there are many resorts with steep little pitches close to the piste which are not skied by the locals and there is a good reason, so one part of the awareness is asking the question why is there no fresh tracks down that bit?
OK back to sensible perspective, if your "off piste" your "off piste" this season so far has seen a number of avalanches by the side of the piste and in what are usually seen as controlled areas, within the resort.
Quote:
"properly off-piste".
I know what Rob means and lots of us think the same way, but we must always stop and think or plan a line with the right questions running through our minds, so if you do not know what the questions are don't do it and go and get some training.
On this incident IMHO I would guess that the person who got caught saw a line that no one or very very few people had taken and thought that looks nice probably was following his mates who skied the more mellow line off to the side and he took the steeper option, on the pics there does not look to be many lines straight into the steeper section. It was a bad decision to take, there are many resorts with steep little pitches close to the piste which are not skied by the locals and there is a good reason, so one part of the awareness is asking the question why is there no fresh tracks down that bit?
Maybe he'd heard the tired old saying that following other people's tracks is the most dangerous thing you can do.
No previous tracks means it's therefore safer, logically speaking.
Maybe he'd heard the tired old saying that following other people's tracks is the most dangerous thing you can do.
From a navigation point of view it might well be very sensible, but from a snowpack stability point of view snow which is skier compacted is likely to be more stable than a snowpack which is completely untracked. That doesn't mean, of course, that tracks = 100% safety. There's a a scary video which Henry uses in the HAT talks where a slope with maybe dozen tracks on it slides when skier number 13 is half way down it.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Ahhh, a blanket of untracked powder... heaven and hell
After all it is free
After all it is free
Austrian television transmitted in the Tirol heute programme on 07.01 an interview with the Italian skier, Massimo Costa, who was caught in this avalanche (in the section "Großes Glück"). He speaks in English although that is somewhat drowned out by the German translation. The man looks in good shape and, not surprisingly, very happy.
There is also a text report (in German) here. In the few minutes before he was rescued his body temperature had already sunk to 33°C and he fell asleep or lost consciousness.
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Interesting. So he had a beacon and a bag but reckons he had no time to pull the handle.
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Layne wrote:
Interesting. So he had a beacon and a bag but reckons he had no time to pull the handle.
I think that happened in an avalanche in Val d'Isere last season. A couple skiing with a guide, both of whom had air bags. One survived and the other did not. The survivor's bag deployed but the bag worn by the person who died did not. It suggests that when things happen very quickly, you may just not have time to grab the handle before your arms get trapped or tangled up somehow.
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espri, nice one, love the guys avalanche T shirt
He says he had no time to pull his avalanche backpack, there could be a number of reasons why he didn't and of course we have to assume he had the handle ready to pull.
I fear it may well have been one of those occasions, as he was so close to the piste he thought twice about it before trying to pull the rip cord!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
That is quite scary. The sort of thing I probably would have skied without a second thought. Although fresh lines available that close to piste might have made me a bit wary.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
This story is clearly sobering as I, like many others, have been guilty of going off the side when I am on my own, and without gear. But in most of the resorts I have been to the sides off piste are heavily tracked, so I assume must be reasonably safe. If that could still slide, why don't steep ungroomed runs slide? And I would have thought that they would undertake avalanche control in areas besides pistes anyway due to risk of sliding onto a piste?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
eddiethebus, There are two reasons I always wear my transciever, even if not planning a big off piste day. The first is as Pedantica descirbed, in case I'm tempted off the groomers, which is more likely than not. The Second is in case I come across someone or a group in some sort of drama. If I have my gear with me maybe I'll be able to help.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
snowgood wrote:
eddiethebus, There are two reasons I always wear my transciever, even if not planning a big off piste day. The first is as Pedantica descirbed, in case I'm tempted off the groomers, which is more likely than not. The Second is in case I come across someone or a group in some sort of drama. If I have my gear with me maybe I'll be able to help.
OK I'm sold: Prior to your comments I have always regarded it as sensible to have my transceiver on or at least with me in case a day on the piste turns out to be something different due to the temptations. Now I am going to make a conscious effort to always have it with me (and a probe and claw, but not shovel, I'm not a martyr) so that if I see an incident I can attempt to attend and help.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Layne wrote:
No bad aimed at the OP or others spreading the word of caution but I think you have to keep a sense perspective here. Most days we ski we see stacks pf people skiing to the side off pistes. If you look at the number of skier runs compared to the number of ava's it will be tiny. To say you should never ski off piste without ava gear or a guide is IMHO way OTT. All this example shows is that very occasionally someone f**ks up. I'd agree that if you have it by default you should wear your ava gear. But for me it's not a given.
Completely agree with this Layne.
In addition, I feel that mainstream reporting of avalanches has become a bit of a trend over the last few seasons and although we certainly can learn a lot from the proper reports it is beginning to feel that there is a scaremonger culture relating to avalanches and off piste skiing.
As other people have mention we all have differing levels of experience, risk to reward thresholds and common sense. As humans we will all make the wrong decisions occasionally!(Look at some of the professionals that have unfortunately lost their lives over the last few seasons) Hopefully we survive, learn from them and share these experience with others to learn from them.
If people choose to ski on piste with a transceiver, that entirely their choice (It would be great if they new how to use it, understood its functions and carried a shovel and probe... ) They should not be chastised for this by the off-piste fraternity for this as seems to be the case frequently on a variety of forums including this one. It is becoming the new generation form of ski snobbery.
Having been an outdoor professional and skier for the 20 plus years, i train and educate people to be safe in the outdoors... Yet just like every other person on here who skis/boards/slides i occasionally make the wrong decisions when I'm skiing with companions or on my own, so why should i expect someone whose experiences equal a week once a year to not make the wrong decisions. Unfortunately we are not always lucky enough to come out of this without consequences... but no-one sets out to make these things happen, it is unfortunately the human factor of life!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
scottieruss, this makes no sense as the vast majority of the "off piste fraternity" I know all over the world ski with avi gear on piste. Indeed most people here are quite rightly pointing out that a transceiver is less useful than some investment in the knowledge and skills to spot problematic terrain in order to make good decisions. There have been a couple of knee jerk posts generalising about whole groups from one individual post and it's lame.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Thanks for posting, meh - really interesting (and sobering) report.
patricksh wrote:
And I would have thought that they would undertake avalanche control in areas besides pistes anyway due to risk of sliding onto a piste?
I'm a bit surprised by this too - I can see that this didn't actually reach the piste (and I appreciate the resort has no responsibility to you once you step off the piste), but it's close enough that if I'd have been looking at that slope and thinking about skiing it, one of the factors I'd have taken into account is that it was so close to a piste and therefore I'd have expected ski patrol to be keeping an eye on any avalanche danger building up there. Does that make me really naive? Are resorts just too big for patrollers to go around triggering on every slope that might slide, or was this an unusual location for an avvy and it caught patrol unawares?
Generally it is slopes above pistes that ski patrol will be concerned about. This slope seems to have been by the side of the piste and the fact that the avalanche didn't reach the piste seems to indicate ski patrol's judgement was right.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I was coming back down to the piste on the last EOSB and although only a few hundred meters away on tracked out snow I mentioned that it felt a little slabby. There was a couple of feet of a little chute with a few rocks showing so I decided that it would be fun to shoot over it. The rocks had allowed a small amount of slab to build up underneath it, even though it looked totally innocuous. As I went down it some cracks appeared at my feet, they shot forwards for 20 or so feet, then the small slide took my feet away. It was only about 10 inches deep and carried me on my side for approx 8 feet. I had my hand on the air bag handle but as I was stable I was waiting to see if the slide would develop. I came to a halt after about 2 seconds and was pretty glad that I hadn't set the bag off.
It really did not look like anything dodgy as we had just come down all the way from the top with no sign of slides higher up at all. As mentioned above, an eye opener not to take anything for granted. Looking back on the vid my comment that it felt slabby should have been a wake up call to me
It has been a while since I saw Henry's Avalanche Talk presentation, but this incident reminds me of the fatal accident he used to show which happened in Val d'Isere a few years ago.
It was close to the piste near the Tovier lift if I remember correctly and Henry used it to illustrate how dangerous something just to the side of the piste can be.
The fatal avalanche in Tignes at the beginning of December was just under Tovier as well, not sure if it was on the same side or area as mentioned in your talk tho, but again, it wasn't far from the piste, indeed we ended up assisting in the search as we saw it from the Aeroski
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Its been posted before, but its always good to hear from people who survived an avalanche and what they think after the event, I met her at the London ski show so Henry grabbed his camera and did this little interview.
It has been a while since I saw Henry's Avalanche Talk presentation, but this incident reminds me of the fatal accident he used to show which happened in Val d'Isere a few years ago.
It was close to the piste near the Tovier lift if I remember correctly and Henry used it to illustrate how dangerous something just to the side of the piste can be.
The fatal avalanche in Tignes at the beginning of December was just under Tovier as well, not sure if it was on the same side or area as mentioned in your talk tho, but again, it wasn't far from the piste, indeed we ended up assisting in the search as we saw it from the Aeroski
I am pretty sure the avalanche in the HAT presentation was on the Val side. Actually I should have said Tommeuse lift because of course Tovier is the location at the top of the lift.
I was in Tignes the week after the recent one and our guide pointed out where it had taken place. That avalanche was definitely on the Tignes side roughly under the Aeroski.
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patricksh wrote:
This story is clearly sobering as I, like many others, have been guilty of going off the side when I am on my own, and without gear. But in most of the resorts I have been to the sides off piste are heavily tracked, so I assume must be reasonably safe. If that could still slide, why don't steep ungroomed runs slide? And I would have thought that they would undertake avalanche control in areas besides pistes anyway due to risk of sliding onto a piste?
Can't rely on tracks to mean it's safe. Certainly, with regards to loose snow and fresh snow the tracking out has the effect of mixing up the layers in the snow-pack and increasing stability, but in the spring especially, what could have been fresh and tracked out a day or so ago could quickly become unsafe as the temperatures change.
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ChrisWo wrote:
I'd have expected ski patrol to be keeping an eye on any avalanche danger building up there. Does that make me really naive? Are resorts just too big for patrollers to go around triggering on every slope that might slide, or was this an unusual location for an avvy and it caught patrol unawares?
I think you are being a bit too deterministic about avalanches. The piste patrol may put a 2kg charge on a slope, nothing happens. Next day they decided to put a larger charge down. Nothing. Skiers ski the slope. Then someone goes down and boom, the whole lot goes. No-one can really say why an 80kg skier triggered the slope when high explosives or the passage of other skiers didn't. Don't make too many assumptions about off piste and be prepared for the unexpected.
Which brings me to another point. I don't ride round on piste with a beacon transmitting, in fact I don't go out for a day's piste skiing with a whole load of avalanche kit at all. The chance of being killed by an on-piste avalanche in N.A or Europe is somewhere around 1 in 250 million skier days. Off piste the risk is more like 1 in 50,000^ skier days. If I'm going to be going off piste or touring I've decided that in advance and thought about when, where and with whom I'm going, preparing for the unexpected. I personally don't whizz around on piste than suddenly decide I'm going to do some random off piste pitch, what slope aspect is that? what did the avalanche bulletin say again? did I do a beacon check? where am I exactly if there is a problem? Prepare for the unexpected. Well that's how I approach things anyway. YMMV.
^these are guesses, don't go round quoting them as if they are hard 100% fact.
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davidof, so, are you saying that when you ski on piste, you stick absolutely to the pistes at all times? Whatever the answer to that is, the difference between you and 99.9%* of punters is that, if you did decide to deviate from the piste without avi kit, you would only ski in areas which you knew to be totally safe, for the simple reason that you really, really know what you're doing and most of the rest of us don't. Quite a few knowledgeable skiers on this thread alone have admitted that they might have been caught out by this one.
*This too is a guess. But the fact is that knowledge is everything and you have a LOT more than most!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Pedantica, And a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I've been hit by three slides in 3 years, once just knocked off my feet, once buried up the thighs on a flat forest trail as the embankment above slid as I passed under (how's that for bad luck?) and once had a lucky escape when I dived off down an eighty metre deep gully and managed to stop as the whole slope went. I've found that it tends to be the small scale decisions that lead you into trouble, on larger slopes you are more cautious and perhaps stop more often to evaluate and route plan.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Scarpa,
Quote:
it tends to be the small scale decisions that lead you into trouble
And I guess that a tiny diversion off the side of a piste could be described as the ultimate 'small scale decision'. This whole subject is going round in circles in my head...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
It's because you don't tend to think about them. If you take a good look you spot most dangers, many are quite obvious.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Pedantica wrote:
davidof, so, are you saying that when you ski on piste, you stick absolutely to the pistes at all times?
That's the way I approach things now but there is off piste that is safe to ski. What Meh's post shows very well is that you really need to have your "off piste" head on. Risk 3 and that little untracked cut through is a 40 degree slope, what can happen? You tend to think like this if you know when you go out that it is going to be an off piste day rather than just darting off piste because you have your avalanche gear with you. Well that's my personal outlook but everyone has different approaches. I'm just throwing this out as food for thought.
Pedantica wrote:
really, really know what you're doing and most of the rest of us don't.
Unfortunately the graveyards of the mountains are full of people who knew what they were doing. The major group at risk are people who are skiing a lot, locals, pros etc not one week a year holiday skiers. It is a question of the number of days of exposure and a certain tolerance to risk that comes with things like familiarity with the terrain.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
davidof wrote:
I think you are being a bit too deterministic about avalanches. The piste patrol may put a 2kg charge on a slope, nothing happens. Next day they decided to put a larger charge down. Nothing. Skiers ski the slope. Then someone goes down and boom, the whole lot goes. No-one can really say why an 80kg skier triggered the slope when high explosives or the passage of other skiers didn't. Don't make too many assumptions about off piste and be prepared for the unexpected.
That's a good point...and if I'm honest it suggests I am being a little naive (which I often am...).
Although that's partly why I do ski around all day with a beacon transmitting (and a shovel and probe in my bag). I know if I'm likely to be staying on piste or not, but even if I am I'm used to wearing a pack (and probably want some water and a spare layer anyway) and don't even really consider leaving my kit behind now. I guess for me it's just part of preparing for the unexpected, but I can well understand others taking a different view
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
davidof, very clearly put. Thanks.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Another picture of the slide (you can still kinda make out the debris), for some perspective of the gradient (not all that much):
(Photo form Stubai's FB page)
EDIT for clarity: To the left of where the skiers are in this picture, by where the nearest of the yellow poles on the piste is
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 20-01-13 21:00; edited 1 time in total
clarky999, honestly I think that would have caught me as well! I would not have hesitated to ski down there.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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clarky999, I must admit if my kids had asked me if they could ski down that and there had been previous skiers down it I would probably have seen no harm in saying yes - sobering stuff. Was there anything that I should notice about that slope that should service as a warning?
After all it is free
After all it is free
Good post, I am sure i have read somewhere that many avalanche accidents are close to pistes so its a good reminder for us all.
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Megamum wrote:
clarky999, I must admit if my kids had asked me if they could ski down that and there had been previous skiers down it I would probably have seen no harm in saying yes - sobering stuff. Was there anything that I should notice about that slope that should service as a warning?
The bit where the skiers are in the picture is safe, it's the bit off to the side where the slide was (nearest of the yellow poles on the piste). In hindsight, there's a convexity and the slope gets suddenly steeper, bit of a terrain trap at the bottom between it and the piste... Being honest, I probably wouldn't have though twice about skiing it either (with a lot of fresh snow/wind I'd have been thinking about where the wind was coming from and if it had loading it, but...).
Sobering, for sure. Lesson learnt.
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So there is lots being written about training being important. Where do we get it from, and how much do we need? I've got kids who are only getting older and more independant. I want to be able to make informed decisions when they ask 'can I go and ski down that bit?'. Things like clarky999's, info. above is easy to pick up and remember, I've been reading a fair bit about this subject, and about searching and rescue techniques and I've been following all the recently posted internet links and reading up. It certainly seems that the best learning is prevention, i.e. reading conditions and aspects etc. How much can I (the kids) self learn, and how much do I (the kids) need to be shown by an expert and where do we go to learn it.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
probably was following his mates who skied the more mellow line off to the side and he took the steeper option, on the pics there does not look to be many lines straight into the steeper section. It was a bad decision to take, there are many resorts with steep little pitches close to the piste which are not skied by the locals and there is a good reason, so one part of the awareness is asking the question why is there no fresh tracks down that bit?
