Off piste insurance, who is best ?

A snowHead

I have always, alteris paribus, done my utmost to avoid contractual obligations such as uberrimae fides. It's up there with "to the best of the party's ability" and other such "I'll do everything I can to avoid any liability" turns of phrase.

As you, I fear, rightly identify, when asked 'cui bono?' in relation to my cunning ruse to avoid buying yet more insurance, the answer is 'mihi soli'.

So, the outcome is:

Mrs. Zammo (nervous, on-piste only skier) should be OK with the extant AMEX cover + carre neige
Self needs to buy suitable cover which, let's face it, may or may not cover self in the regrettable circumstances wherein self has failed to look where self is going and ridden headlong into large granite object

Back to the original question: from whom should I buy this fabulous policy?

A snowHead

zammo,

Try MPI brokers. A few sHs are insured with them, me included.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

zammo, can't avoid it under English law with insurance Sad

I'm all for minimising insurance - have you asked AMEX what they recommend? It could be their underwriter might do a specifc extension for your situation and it's minimal cost to them as they are already on the hook for the existing risks. Otherwise I generally do 'Insureandgo' and carre niege - seems to cover most evils. Insureandgo Annual silver is about £40 and if I go late one season, early the next, it covers the lot (I did three trips once!). You can also do Backpacker multi-trip with them which covers varying amounts of piste time. You can get cover for off piste with them but you need to chat with them about it.

In understand Mrs. Zammo being nervous. Never mind the skiing, just being Mrs Zammo is cause enough .....

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I used World Wide Cover last year and when I missed the train home due to a fresh dump it was all sorted very quickly. They do offer Off piste without a guide within the resort boundaries and following resort guidance (don't duck under the rope or go down that 40% slope with a level 5 avalanche risk).

If you are doing multiple trips I have heard it may be worth joining the Austrian Alpine Club. I am told their Off Piste and general mountain cover is fantastic at around £40 a year (not read the small print though)

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I have just signed up with MPI brokers as Direct Travel only allow 17 days skiing per year in their Multi trip Insurance . Also the Direct Line policy covers you for medical evacuation by the most appropriate transport but excludes any costs charged to you for search and rescue costs.

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Pedantica, granted. If you check my posts you should have a field day - my typing's bad and my spelling worse, a combination of the two is not 'a consumation devoutly to be wished'.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

ima, Cheers for that link. I was looking at insurance for a couple of months climbing and skiing out in Austria and that suits me perfectly to cover the mountain activities, plus I can use the huts. I can just get standard travel insurance for the other stuff.

They cover worldwide with no trip limits as far as I can see, excluding over 6000m mountains and arctic / antarctic trips.

After all it is free

If anyone takes advantage of the AAC then please be generous and donate to the hut and expeditions funds.

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Pedantica, + 1 for MPI Brokers. V helpful on the phone and in fact took a couple of items off the cover on account of those things being already accounted for by AMEX.

Thanks for the recommendation.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

zammo, my pleasure. I was put on to them in the first place by someone recommending them on here, unfortunately I can't remember who that was, though I suppose it would come up on a search.

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I am looking for "top up" cover for my insurance that is provided by HSBC as it doesnt cover off piste without being with a guide. The AAC seems to fit the bill but I am little concerned about the limits for medical - €10k isnt all that much. I see above thatsah, mentions that this should be enough but I was wondering if anyone has acutally had a serious injury (or knows of someone who has) abroad (in france, austria)and what the cost of such injury was. I'm talking broken leg, broken hip, etc. What if you are taken to a private hospital or the likes and then your EHIC card would not be valid? Might just be better to go with snow card for an extra £40 and not have to worry??

Cheers

Having followed these off-piste insurance debates for some time, I think the insurance offered as part of membership of the Austrian Alpensverein (Alpine Club) potentially plugs some of the gaps of other policies. Covers rescue costs, medical and repatriation up to reasonable limits (for Europe/EHIC countries anyway). Doesn't distinguish between guided/non-guided, 'in-bounds'/backcountry, published avalanche risk (not that this should be ignored!)

Doesn't cover the 'usual' holiday insurance things - baggage, cancellation, etc. I have that elsewhere.

I'm a member of the British section (http://aacuk.org.uk) mainly for summer walking/climbing activities, but will certainly be taking my membership card when I head to the Alps later this month. Membership is £43 pp from memory, with reductions for couples/families.

http://aacuk.org.uk/p-faqs-insurance
http://aacuk.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/WWS_Folder_2012_E_ebook.pdf

As ever though, DYOR...

You know it makes sense.

I see IMA, Scarpa & others beat me to it. Doh! Should have read the 2nd page...

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I have just taken out insurance with DSV aktiv, cover is very reasonable, €39 for all winter sports and "normal" travel insurance included. I emailed them to ask about their ski cover and it covers all skiing, on piste, off piste and touring, policy details here

http://www.ski-online.de/xfiles/files/dsv_aktiv/DSV_AK_Englische_Leistungsuebersicht_Web.pdf

A snowHead

A snowHead

DidierCouch, Another recommendation is always welcome. I use an annual Tesco policy which does 60 day trips and will cover my motorbike touring during the summer as well and the AAC covers climbing and skiing. Between them and the EHIC card I should be ok as all my flights and tunnel crossings are only cheap, my arrangements are flexible and the AA covers vehicle breakdowns and recovery.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Citibank UK's bank accounts provide global off-piste cover explictly and with no guide/instructor requirement. You need to credit their current account with £1800 a month and it is free - otherwise they charge you £6/month. They'll throw in a free Euro current account which means free of charge bank transfers within the EEA.
The insurer is ACE.

Rescue services are included in the general medical cover limit - so the limit is £2m.

It covers partners and kids too.

It doesn't cover mountaineering requiring the use of ropes or guides - I guess that is the really high risk activity which BMC charge £450 for.

http://www.citibank.co.uk/personal/banking/bankingproducts/currentaccounts/sterling/plus/insurance.htm

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elbrus55, French Carte Neige and Carré Neige covers the whole of the EU There are no British branches, FSA rules or UK premium tax, so I assume this German equivalent will be the same?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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I'm currently in the process of looking for off-piste cover (without a guide) for a single trip in France. Some of the routes I have done in the past/plan to do would not be within sight of a piste, let alone whether I could crawl back to one!

I see MPI Brokers recommended often, but their policy wording is this:

"Many policies either exclude this or limit skiing ‘off piste’ to be with a guide.
It is our view that this is impractical as one can ski ‘off piste’ unwittingly and in
certain circumstances it is possible to ski on a ‘pisted’ run which is designated ‘off
piste’.
It is due to this type of confusion that we at MPI Brokers have negotiated with
underwriters that there is no such exclusion or limitation in this policy. There is,
however, a general requirement, common to all insurance, to behave in a reasonable and sensible manner"

It would be very easy for them to take the stance, that skiing off piste at all, or perhaps when the avalanche risk is 2/3 is neither reasonable not sensible - so IMO this policy wording still gives them plenty of wiggle room to not pay out. What are other peoples thoughts, or preferably experiences with this?

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Does anyone have experience of claiming on or info relating to LV's winter sports policy? My annual insurance with Dogtag went up from £80odd to £122 last year and I was claim free. LV have quoted half this premium and it includes the required 'off piste' cover, just I havent seen the full policy wording.

After all it is free

elbrus55, it covers a bit of Switzerland too I believe.

I actually think if you wish to take a punt on the recompense re: spoiled holiday, that a combination of the carre niege and E111 is easily the most cost effective and high standard ski insurance that you can get in France. The 'few thousand' you quoted is actually a top up in case you need more than the E111 supplies (unlikely).They refund your ski pass and cover all repatriation costs.

Since I have a 'pay if you ski' ski pass and my own place, I would not get any further insurance comp. under 'loss of holiday' so the only other element of claim would be bust kit damaged in the fall. Given excess charges and discounts for the age of my kit I am guessing the £23.62 the insurance company would - eventually - give me would be further decreased by inflation and thus de minimis. I've avoided this type of insurance for a while and I think I would have to take a kit loss of £1000+ to be out of pocket now - prob more.

In any event, the ski pass I use is set to automatically give me the carre niege when I ski so I don't even have to do anything each season - it's automatic.

BMG, I'd be careful if I were you about that Premier/Advance HSBC cover - I tried to deal with a claim and they were - to put it mildly - less than helpful. I gave up in the end. Very not impressed. They keep on changing the terms as well so I'd double check. I'd trust Citibank even less.

magicrichard, m8 - 'to behave in a reasonable and sensible manner' - I hate to break it to you but that's a clause lawyers pray for - when they are trying to prevent insurance payments. Have a drink with your lunch, did you? One at dinner the night before, perhaps? Would you say you were safe to drive? How do you know? etc, etc. NB your blood alcohol level will be a matter of record since the hospital would have to determine it prior to administering painkillers. And that's just the start.

magicrichard, I think Pedantica has spoke with them by phone about the off-piste cover, and was satisfied.

Maybe you could give them a call about it?

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@RattytheSnowRat - whilst I don't make a habit of skiing whilst drunk (esp. off piste!) I entirely take your point that this sort of phrasing gives them the ability to avoid paying out whenever they feel like it.

@ Hells_Bells - Not sure I'd be happy with anything other than written confirmation, but yes I will contact them directly to see why that wording is in place.

I guess my original question still stands though: Has anyone had any experience of trying to claim through MPI Brokers having been injured skiing off-piste?

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

magicrichard, a quick search for MPI found a few posts, but this one caught my eye http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=85257#2082768
. Husband of poster does touring. I can't find the quote she gave on the website though.

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magicrichard, I was in no way suggesting you would be drunk, just that you might have a drink. Alcohol at altitude behaves differently than at sea level. I parachuted and we had to abstain at least 48 hours prior to each jump as the alcohol would bubble back into your blood stream as you hit jump altitude. It's more or less the same for skiing although less pronounced. The point I was making is that it's easy to make the case that any alcohol whilst skiing is unreasonable if it leads to injury. Being French the carre niege guys would never be so gauche as to try and run this argument (within reason), I'm not so sure about Anglo-Saxon insurers ..... I know you get the point but the purpose of extreme sports insurance is to cover what the majority of people might regard as un-reasonable and certainly not sensible, which is why I had a short intake of breath when I read the words above. I'd be leery if I saw that wording in a contract of insurance that allegedly covered off piste skiing unless there were other excluding defs.

RattytheSnowRat, the guy who owns the company is a very keen skiier, there's some more stuff on off-piste on the website, but I have sent him an email asking for clarification.

You know it makes sense.

Henry's Avalanche Talk also recommend MPI, and state the only condition is a general duty of care, which applies to all insurance policies. http://www.henrysavalanchetalk.com/sites/default/files/Insurance.pdf

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Thanks Hells Bells, that's a really useful link.

A snowHead

magicrichard, Henry's is a very useful site, and their recommendation counts for a lot I think.
I will post when I get a reply from MPI too. Good insurance is one of my pet topics after my hubby had a skiing accident.

A snowHead

Hells Bells,

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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I've had a lengthy reply from MPI which I will quote when I have some time.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Hells Bells, I'm guessing it has a shed load of caveats in it. Fair enough, to some extent. If I were an insurer I would not like to underwrite some luantic's idiocy.

For everyone's clarification, telephone conversations and fireside chats will not override the terms of the policy and e-mails are only going to be of some use to either clarify something unclear in the policy or refute an interpretation/view allegedly held by the insurer at some later date. N.B it is unlikely to be the broker running the court case, it'll the underwriter or a cartel of the same. You need to read the small print - sorry - and be comfortable with it. It's designed to limit the liability of the insurer and will nearly all be either neutral or detrimental to you in some way or another.

The reality is that MPI are only brokers, i.e. salespeople, not insurers. The real conversation would have to be with the insurers/underwriters.

Please don't think I am knocking them - they may be the best around for all I know but the quote I always get always seems a bit toppy - about £100 per trip. I think my E111 carre niege works out at about £20 for the same period.

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RattytheSnowRat, here's the reply, I'll let you judge this for yourself.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

RattytheSnowRat, as for cost I paid less than £100 for an annual policy for a couple.

After all it is free

More or less as I expected. He's saying he's trying to be be reasonable about being reasonable without making any absolute statement. The site he directs us to has the statement 'We have already met the enemy - it's us!' halfway through which is less than encouraging. As it further points out, alcohol - as I pointed out above - is a major factor in contributing to the insurance analysis of liability.

I suggest anyone thinking of going off piste read the 'Henry'savalancetalk' article, it's a fairly pragmatic assessment of how much insurance is worth in off piste situations. One thing that did surprise me slightly was that one is not covered to ski on a piste that is closed, regardless. That would mean if the resort had closed a piste to preserve it for some reason that did not mean it was inherently dangerous (e.g. they just wanted to save it for an event) you would not be covered but shift your butt 10m to the right onto off-piste and you would - assuming your policy covered such activity and all other factors were in your favour - be covered - bizarre! That means all the times I have had a sneaky slalom on a ski school's pre-prepared course, I have been taking my uninsured life in my hands!!

The crux appears to be what is regarded as 'reasonable and sensible behaviour' which no insurer is willing to define. I think that this is a really problematic issue for back country or off-piste. The example Michael gives above is, I believe, not clear so I would argue that it is 'unreasonable' as he suggests. If you started off in good weather with friends but get seperated when cloud cover descends. You wait for them but they do not re-appear and you accidentally end up on that slope, at that time, alone and in that weather. Your options - back track into cloud, freeze to death or ski down. I know what I would do and I would argue strenuously that it was reasonable action in the circumstances.

With due respect to Michael's expertise, I am finding it difficult to believe that an insurer would not raise alcohol as a contributory factor if it was noted in the medical report, regrdless of the levels AND the HAT article makes a specifc point of the issue. Don't get me wrong - I like a drink and the idea of not drinking on a skiing holiday is alien to me. I just do it with the knowledge that I could pay the price for it in more ways than one.

As I was arriving at Les Arcs at about 8 p.m. this season we picked up three skiers at one of the lowest way stations. It was pitch black and they had obviously been drinking. Seems they were playing a little game. Order three rounds of three shots, knock 'em back, strap on your skis and ski as far as possible (without lights) then pick up the bus to go back to the top resort and start all over again. Judging by appearances they were on their third run and heading back for more. Never saw them again. Now, I accept THAT as uninsured behaviour. I suspect they'll turn up in the spring thaw.

RattytheSnowRat, I have given Michael the link to this thread.

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The reason I am banging on about this is that I think it would be difficult to argue with an average audience that backcountry ie EVER 'reasonable and sensible behaviour'. It's like sky diving, many people view the activity as inherently dangerous even though more people die on golf courses and horse riding. From an actuarial POV insurers should be rushing to offer skydivers cover at better rates than golfers, but guess what? They don't. Your average punter would wonder why a skier wanted to go away from the nice, safe piste (not having seen SH's in action on the groomed stuff).

Okey dokey - let's play.

I and two of my friends are off the back of Mont Blanc tracking down pristine powder, way off piste. We checked the weather report prior to leaving and it was 'changeable' the avalance level is '3'. The weather is sunny when we depart. We had a few drinks with a meal the night before but know our capacities and can hold our booze. We are kitted out for off piste but not mountaineering (although we have a rope) and have no intention of going anyway you can not walk up or ski down. We do not take a guide but are all physically fit, expert level skiers and have done the route planned with a guide at various times and are confident of our skills/knowledge/experience to do the route un-aided. It's half a day excursion - max. We have all done much harder physical challanges in much worse conditions. As we go past the half way point the weather turns nasty, cloud spilling over the ridge and the wind picking up. We stop, review and decide to turn back. We strap on skis and are half an hour down when one of us falls into a crevasse which had been covered by a snow bridge. The fallee has multiple fractures and is concussed. We set off flares, call via 'phone for support and eventually get picked up by helicopter with a three person mountain rescue team in tow, all of us sufferring from exposure. We are all hauled back to Cham via whirlybird, At the hospital an alcohol level below the drink/drive limit is detected in blood tests for the fallee. Eventually, our fallee has to be repatriated to the UK for medical attention. We are all insured by MPI as another SnowHead told us they were 'good'.

Discuss from an insurance POV.

Same fact pattern as above but with an Australian mountaineering guide who has never done the route before but knows of it. We are unsure if he is 'official' for the area or even what that would amount to. He didn't say and we didn't ask but he was recommended on SnowHeads. Discuss.

Help!!

Off piste insurance, who is best ?

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