 Poster: A snowHead
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| awf wrote: |
| A narrow glide does not restrict the range of edge angles you can achieve. It doesn't. It really really doesn't. |
Surely it depends on what your usual stance width is? How many skiers around the hill do you see with their feet so close together that their boots frequently touch? What about this chap? Do you think his stance is so narrow that he is compromising his ability to create decent edge angles as well as making balance more difficult?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, Yep, you need to adapt your stance width and pressure bias for the conditions and type of skiing, there does seem to be as jimmjimm, points out, a lot of confusion or lack of awareness at various levels... on the difference between stance width and sagittal/vertical separation of the feet. To my mind it is fundamental to understand this difference if you want to be able to crank up the angles, and I think it stops a lot of good skiers going beyond the skidded turn, I think it's also important to understand about the rate and range of separation, pedalling etc. those who struggle learning to carve or to go beyond a certain point, imv lack the awareness of "range"
The other threads are starting to highlight this but it maybe worth a thread of its own.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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gatecrasher, as well as a thread with diagrams to explain all the terms people are chucking about with wild abandon. Google has never had to work so hard to keep up. 
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I'm surprised nobody seems to have invented some kind of harness-and-cables device to practice the stances and movements with the right balancing forces but without having to worry about timing, terrain, etc at the same time.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, thanks, that picture is what I was trying to convey with the leaning on a wall stuff last night, if your thighs/knees are clamped together then I suggest it must impair your ability to create angles....
PS nice shades, matching the suit and bindings!!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar, kitenski, this pic does indeed explain the confusion. That's what I've been calling "boot out" (but on googling, I find I'm using that term incorrectly). Anyway, I meant that of course physically blocking your outside boot with your inside ski is going to limit your angles, but any punter can diagnose that for themselves in an instant, and they can fix it by making the movement which lifts the inside ski toward the hips.
In the past I've specifically asked "do you mean we need a wide stance in order to avoid the outside boot being blocked by the inside ski?" and been told "no, that's not the reason, it's to give you higher edge angles". Outcome: confused punter...
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awf, IMO narrower than hip width begins to introduce some compromises in terms of the capacity to create edge angles. How many skiers do you ski witha stance which is generally narrower than hip width? I see a fairly high proportion, and for them being told a wider stance is better would be good advice. That's not to say we should all ski like we're doing the John Wayne drill all the time, of course. But as I said earlier, the ability to vary stance width slightly is, IMO, perhaps more important that your normal stance. I know I go slightly wider than hip width when making fast, long turns on piste, and slightly narrower when skiing tricky unlisted snow.
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rob@rar, I would really be happy to to be proven wrong on this---it be a load off my mind to be honest. So, can you detail the "compromises" that the narrow stance (in the glide phase) begins to introduce. So far I can see only two:
1. Inside ski impedes outside boot. Easily diagnosed and fixed as above.
2. Impaired balance. Fine, but again easily diagnosed, and nothing to do with edge angles per se.
And I can see one major disadvantage: more danger of skis ending up in snow of different stickiness, or one in a rut, one out.
And one feature that may or may not be a compromise: the narrow stance discourages outrigger turns.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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PS, who's the model in the pic?
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| awf wrote: |
1. Inside ski impedes outside boot. Easily diagnosed and fixed as above.
2. Impaired balance. Fine, but again easily diagnosed, and nothing to do with edge angles per se.
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Those are two important compromises, and are resolved by widening the stance slightly. Isn't there a good reason, biomechanical efficiency, why we generally walk and run with our feet hip width apart? Why should skiing be fundamentally different?
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Thu 20-12-12 20:38; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| awf wrote: |
| PS, who's the model in the pic? |
Me. Also me in the earlier photo I showed with varying track width.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| awf wrote: |
| (in the glide phase) |
Not quite sure what you mean by this? Is it straight running, like a schuss, or the point at which you transition from one turn to another?
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awf, You say , A wide glide offers better balance. I would say you are more balanced with the skis closer together.
A wide stance offers better stability, but with two feet on the ground, that's not balancing,
that's just standing. you're only balancing when you lift one ski up.
Try doing that with a wide stance compared to a narrow stance. Much easier when the feet are closer together.
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| awf wrote: |
| (in the glide phase) |
Not quite sure what you mean by this? Is it straight running, like a schuss, or the point at which you transition from one turn to another? |
It's both. In your pic above it's the marked section, of a few metres. If one is "straight running" it can be 100s of metres. Basically it's the phase within which your average instructor will remark on your stance width.
In the turn itself, stance width cannot be determined from track width alone, as wide tracks can be created either with high edge angles and narrow stance, or low angles with wide stance.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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awf, thanks. I don't try to have an active glide phase at transition because I want to link my turns cleanly, and it's not something I teach other than in a couple of particular drills. In the photo you've annotated the distance when my skis are flat (the transition between the turns) is about the length of my skis, so there's no glide as such, just a roll from edge to edge.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
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We're just missing David Furnish watching from the side shouting "Elton, spread your legs you silly old queen"
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| DrLawn wrote: |
Posidrive,
I'd stick to what you got .. it will come back into fashion again! |
Sadly I threw my old Dynamic VR27 straight skis away when having a clearout before coming back from Canada
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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awf, Maybe not but whoever the girl in the photo with the wide stance is pretty hot. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FWIW I took a lesson in Austria last year that I wasn't overly impressed with, but the instructor spent the whole lesson encouraging me to ski with my boots practically touching and then to 'push' with the tails as I came round the turn. He claimed it made me look 'elegant'. I could do the drill to his complete satisfaction, but I didn't like the feel of the skiing and haven't skied like it since to my knowledge. I am not having another lesson there this year.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Megamum, maybe you had an overly wide stance, or the instructor saw something you could benefit from by doing the drill?
We used to do a lot of drills, ski as wide as you can, narrow as you can, low as you can, tall as you can, exaggerated movement, no movement etc. etc.
Not liking the feel of something doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong, just that it maybe something you are not used to feeling, the extremes type drills are good for this and a lot of time what feels extreme to you could be how you actually ski the best, from the instructors point of view.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 21-12-12 12:48; edited 1 time in total
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Sometimes narrow is good. Be wanting that for your moguls lesson. As above, we did everything from exaggerated John Wayne (jeez that was hard work) down to practically touching boots, just to demonstrate why bad things really are bad.
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| gatecrasher wrote: |
| Megamum, maybe you had an overly wide stance, or the instructor saw something you could benefit from by doing the drill? |
Or he's teaching the same lesson he's been delivering since 1973?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
maybe you had an overly wide stance, or the instructor saw something you could benefit from by doing the drill?
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In which case the instructor should have explained this? There's no point in doing a drill if you don't know the benefits.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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How the chuff do I "quote" a picture?
Anyway, rob@rar, in your picture would you want your body to be more upright?
I often get critised that I lean over to get edge ange instead of rolling the ankles and driving the skis. I noticed your body was inclined and thought that the ideal would be a vertical body from the waist?
(I'm no instructor, just interested.....)
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You know it makes sense.
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galpinos, the picture of me with my legs close together? Please, please don't take that image as technique to emulate. It's BAD skiing! It was taken in about 1989 when skiing like that was considered 'stylish'.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
Or he's teaching the same lesson he's been delivering since 1973?
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rob@rar, I hate to say it, but that was what it felt like. He was undoubtedly a instructor of a good age and it was almost as though he didn't think I should be aiming at carving as I was too old to do it. He wanted me to ski very upright. In fact when I got it right (and I did easily master what he wanted and got effusive praise for my efforts) it felt like the way I saw my Swiss friend skiing on her 2m+ 'chips' (as she used to call them) about 25 years ago.
NB. it was your picture above that reminded me of it, because you are in that in the position he seemed to encourage me into.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Megamum, I think you're right not to want to have another lesson with him. It's to your credit that you knew something wasn't right with what he was teaching you.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
galpinos, the picture of me with my legs close together?
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Nope, the other one.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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galpinos, OK. That will need a fuller answer than I can give on my phone half way up a mountain. Will reply later, although I'm sure others will chip in with sensible comments.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Megamum, ignore my comments, no worries, I'm sure you did anyway! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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What do I know but my own experience is that I have had some lessons from Austrians which I really felt I did not get a lot out of. On the other hand I've had some truly great lesssons with Austrians. I could say the same about british instructors. Sometimes the language/culture causes some complications but skiing is skiing and a good instructor is a good instructor regardless of nationality. The trick is just finding the right instructor for you. Personally, I find it helpful to have the same areas addressed just with a slightly different approach. I like the line from an instructor about correct as little as possible, vary as much as possible and I would include varying the instructor including nationality in that. Ultimately you have to take responsibility for your own development. Stance width is a good example. rather than specifying play with it and find what works in different circumstances. Just my take.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Posidrive wrote: |
| Having been taught to ski more years ago than I like to remember I still have difficulty widdening my stance on carving skiis. Does anyone have any recommendations of good excercises for correcting this habit? |
I think that having independent feet/legs/skis is really important because it develops your balance and with that the ability to experiment with different width stances. There does not exist a single skiing posture that is suitable for all terrain and all types of turn.
For me learning to ski on one ski was a big help for having independent feet.
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The last thing I was told by an instructor was to think more about angulation and less about banking - so that is where I will start the next time I'm on skis.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I vary my stance width according to what I am doing and where I am doing it. I would be very surprised if anyone tried to tell me that I was 'wrong' for doing so. When I am not carving sometimes I have my 'outer' knee' tucked in behind my 'inner' one for a speed turn - works fine for me. Other times I am worried about doing the splits inadvertently if I hit a bit of ice. Do what works for you but try everything to get to that point.
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rob@rar, I did that because on the critique of one very literal description by someone who readily admits that they know little or nothing about skiing instruction, you attempted to condemn a whole system. A cheap shot from you which I was surprised by as it is not usually your style.
Like another poster has already said, there are many ways of helping a person, particularly ones who take things literally, the value of understanding independent leg action as well as dynamic body position. One of those ways is to make them ski with the feet in all different positions ranging from glued together to as wide apart as possible. I've even done it with you and Scott. Again the upper body control is also demonstrated to someone who may find it difficult to visualise by getting them to ski with different body positions vis à vis the centre of the skis, exaggerated upper body rotation, high/low positions, etc. It all builds to giving the person a better practical experience of dynamic response to terrain, speed, weather, visibility, etc.
I would rather suggest that the cultural discrepancy and the courtesy of the instructor not to insult his client were probably more likely the cause of the misunderstanding. Plus the fact that, if I remember correctly, these were private lessons in isolation, not part of a continuous course building up to a finished product. Depending on what Megamum told the instructor her aims were for the lessons, the instructor would have done their damnedest to meet as many of the needs as possible in the time available to help to achieve those goals. But as you yourself often say, it takes time to break down and remove old habits and to rebuild from a better foundation.
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FAQ
