 Poster: A snowHead
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roga, I might get myself down to Bracknell for training next summer - do they do that? So annoying that High Wycombe is closed.
It all depends on what I get in the way of summer jobs for 2013, really.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The very best skiers I've ever skied with haven't passed the Eurotest and I'd be more than happy to have a lesson with any of them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think you need to be able to do a skill to a degree to be able to teach it. However knowing how to do a skill very well does not mean you will be able to teach it.
Look at Alex Fergusson for example, he was a very mediocre professional footballer. So he could play football passably well but not well enough to win stuff or play at an elite level. However he is arguably the greatest football coach in the history of the sport. If he had only played football at a entry level coaching qualification standard it is unlikely he would be a great coach. Then look at a player like Paul Gascoigne who played at the top level but was an awful football manager.
One guy I know of who has passed his eurotest is an awful teacher. Lovely bloke, great skier. But he has no idea how he does what he does or how to impart that information to someone else.
So yes you want at least a very good skier, but they need to be a good teacher too. They need to have the skill of being able to watch, correctly analyse and design lessons that lead to the clients required outcomes (assuming they have an idea of where they want to get to), amongst a host of other skills.
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| Quote: |
One guy I know of who has passed his eurotest is an awful teacher. Lovely bloke, great skier. But he has no idea how he does what he does or how to impart that information to someone else.
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I think I know him also, on a BASI reval he bored us all.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Cynic wrote: |
| Quote: |
One guy I know of who has passed his eurotest is an awful teacher. Lovely bloke, great skier. But he has no idea how he does what he does or how to impart that information to someone else.
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I think I know him also, on a BASI reval he bored us all. |
 I'm sure there's more than one out there.
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| skir67 wrote: |
.. but they need to be a good teacher too. They need to have the skill of being able to watch, correctly analyse and design lessons that lead to the clients required outcomes (assuming they have an idea of where they want to get to), amongst a host of other skills. |
I thought that was what all the rest of the ISTD course (and all the years before that) was supposed to do? Teach them how to teach(as much as it is possible to teach that)...
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| skir67 wrote: |
One guy I know of who has passed his eurotest is an awful teacher. Lovely bloke, great skier. But he has no idea how he does what he does or how to impart that information to someone else.
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Ah so the rest of the BASI course requires revision to ensure only those that can teach well get to the ISTD level? Or he never passed his ISTD despite having Eurotest?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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little tiger, problem with the FEMPS Euro pro cartel exemplified by the more traditional French instructors but with echoes within all the member nations' systems is that the limiting step to entry isn't pedagogy but skiing ability. This is plainly designed to achieve nothing but the protection of the jobs of the top tier.
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Just checked the BASI website and as I thought passing the Eurotest is part of getting the ISTD. Some ex-racers get exemption because they have a certain number of FIS points - but they would be able to do the test and their racing experience shows it. Who are these others who supposedly have an ISTD and no Eurotest?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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^ there's no "supposedly" about it!
Basically anyone who qualified as a then Grade 1 and applied for equivalence before the Eurotest became compulsory, as part of the agreement the French accepted that effectively everyone who was already fully qualified at that point would be given exemption from the test. IIRC it was around 10 years ago that this happened so there are a lot of ISTDs around who don't have the Eurotest, including a number of BASI Trainers (these are the guys at the top of the tree who train and access instructors at all levels, including current Level 1/ISTD candidates).
I couldn't give you a list though, it'd be far too long! 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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BTW, I think there may have been a number who were exempted at the time in France and elsewhere but I couldn't swear to that, I can in the case of BASI because I know some of them and know the facts about the rest.
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I heard about 40 got exempted in 2000 ish plus also about 40-45 snowboard L3's who got their ISTD's in 2006 and can teach skiing as well being ISTD's. SOme ex racers get exemptions due to FIS points of I think less than 100 points. another 22 got their ET at the garmish giveaway where everyone passed after the german openers skied slow on a protest. so about a hundred got ISTD when the ET was in force without doing the ET properly or having good enough FIS points to get an exemption by rights.
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You know it makes sense.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| I heard about 40 got exempted in 2000 ish plus also about 40-45 snowboard L3's who got their ISTD's in 2006 and can teach skiing as well being ISTD's. SOme ex racers get exemptions due to FIS points of I think less than 100 points. another 22 got their ET at the garmish giveaway where everyone passed after the german openers skied slow on a protest. so about a hundred got ISTD when the ET was in force without doing the ET properly or having good enough FIS points to get an exemption by rights. |
Interesting that the snowboarding level 3's can also teach skiing. Just knew I shouldn't have given that up nearly 20 years ago! 
What exactly was the protest at the garmisch giveaway? Was it just the germans doing a go slow to get all their old boys through it or what?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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not sure as it is a taboo subject that no one likes to talk about. Fair play on the guys that got it as it was nothing to do with them.. i think the germans had a belly full of the French cheating on their own ET's (openers cutting gates when there were lots of foreigners where in and standing up when their own boys where in etc etc) bad enough that BASI started sending a FIS TD to ensure "fairness" and on the Garmisch test with mainly germans brits and no french virtually everyone got a pass... The French refused to accept the results and BASI did a deal with them in '06 that allowed these guys plus the top level snowboarders full equivalence as per the link on the main ET thread someone posted the document..
The snowboard guys now need FIS points to get ISTD so that has changed.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| slikedges wrote: |
| little tiger, problem with the FEMPS Euro pro cartel exemplified by the more traditional French instructors but with echoes within all the member nations' systems is that the limiting step to entry isn't pedagogy but skiing ability. This is plainly designed to achieve nothing but the protection of the jobs of the top tier. |
But the complaint against the eurotest used the example of someone WITH the Eurotest(and I guess therefore ISTD) who cannot TEACH. This would suggest not that the technical test(eurotest) is too difficult but that the teaching test is not rigorous enough
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
This would suggest not that the technical test(eurotest) is too difficult but that the teaching test is not rigorous enough
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yup... it is too easy to examine people on a timed test but not be rigorous in a subjective test on teaching... last year basi had a 6% pass rete in the ET and no one complains but if it took the young guns a dozen goes to pass the teaching module there would be uproar...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Huckacliff duckabranch wrote: |
| Yep, used to ski with the Arrows at Swad |
Well that was at least ten years ago. Arrows folded when J.Nike took over the slope, although various ex-Arrows racers can be found around the UK circuit if you know what you are looking for.
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little tiger, skimottaret, no, actually in purely logical terms it says nothing about how exacting either skiing or teaching tests are in absolute terms, but suggests that the emphasis is on skiing not teaching
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Just to add my, admittedly biased two cents. I am NOT a ski instructor. I've skied all my life, up to 8 or 9 weeks a year learning and training with the ESF who all have their Eurotest. I have a lot of friends who became ski instructors in their gap years and to be honest, I don't feel they would be able to teach me to improve my skiing.
HOWEVER, my biggest gripe with some instructors is that they aren't able to read the weather conditions, judge off piste snow conditions and therefore lead clients in a safe manner in adverse weather conditions. There were times when I was younger where I wanted to take a certain line off piste, or go to a certain area I could see is perfectly clear and I get told no, the snow pack is unsafe or the weather is coming in. Knowledge that I believe comes from a lifetimes experience in the mountains. I don't believe an gap year qualified instructor with one years experience can provide this.
Just my 2 (euro) cents, I expect to get torn apart, just adding a perspective.
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| Jakejenks wrote: |
| ... training with the ESF who all have their Eurotest. |
That's not correct. Not everyone in the red uniform will have a Eurotest pass.
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| Jakejenks wrote: |
| HOWEVER, my biggest gripe with some instructors is that they aren't able to read the weather conditions, judge off piste snow conditions and therefore lead clients in a safe manner in adverse weather conditions. |
Surely you want to ski with a guide not an instructor if you want to be led off-piste in a safe manner, even when conditions such as weather or snowpack stability are hard to read? That's what guides are trained to do, in significantly more depth that instructors, who are trained to teach.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Jakejenks wrote: |
| ... training with the ESF who all have their Eurotest. |
That's not correct. Not everyone in the red uniform will have a Eurotest pass. |
Point taken sir, I guess I didn't phrase that too well! I meant the ones I have skied have passed.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Jakejenks wrote: |
| HOWEVER, my biggest gripe with some instructors is that they aren't able to read the weather conditions, judge off piste snow conditions and therefore lead clients in a safe manner in adverse weather conditions. |
Surely you want to ski with a guide not an instructor if you want to be led off-piste in a safe manner, even when conditions such as weather or snowpack stability are hard to read? That's what guides are trained to do, in significantly more depth that instructors, who are trained to teach. |
There are instructors who specialise in leading off piste excursions if I'm not mistaken, or at least are experienced beyond standard holiday ski lessons? My main point wasn't so much the competence of the ESF, but perhaps the lack of experience of some other instructors. Once again, this is just a perspective and am happy to discuss it and not take my point of view as gospel!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Jakejenks, OK, I understand. Plenty of great instructors in ESF, but plenty of poor ones as well, IMO. I suspect whether they have passed their Eurotest or not is not a major factor in determining which camp they fall in to.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I guess I see the ESF getting bashed a lot, especially by some English people, I feel at least partially obliged to offer another side to the story.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Jakejenks wrote: |
| There are instructors who specialise in leading off piste excursions if I'm not mistaken, or at least are experienced beyond standard holiday ski lessons? My main point wasn't so much the competence of the ESF, but perhaps the lack of experience of some other instructors. Once again, this is just a perspective and am happy to discuss it and not take my point of view as gospel! |
There are qualifications in leading groups safely off-piste, not sure about the French system but in the British system you have to pass these qualifications at Level 3 and 4 qualifications. No doubt there are similar qualifications in other systems. But in no way are any of these qualifications as in-depth as the requirements for a guides qualification (UIAGM). There are instructors who specialise in teaching and leading off-piste, and they will have considerably more experience than an instructor who teaches the broad range of typical holiday skiers.
If you want an instructor who is more experienced in leading clients well away from 'sidecountry' terrain you should specifically ask for that as not all instructors will have that general or local knowledge. Better still, ski with a guide as that's what they are best at. As with teaching quality, difficult to see how the Eurotest is relevant here.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Jakejenks wrote: |
| My main concern beyond standard of teaching is safety of clients. |
Yes, me too. Although all my training has stressed safety as the first priority, with enjoyment and teaching after that. Interestingly the Eurotest was introduced as a safety requirement.
Finding one instructor that you work well with and you are confident in, and growing that relationship over 20 years is a brilliant way to develop your skiing. That kind of long term coaching relationship is rewarding on both sides.
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Poster: A snowHead
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/bowtosuperiorknowledge
I guess I got very lucky with who I met 20 years ago and my perception has been skewed to thinking everyone is of the level of the people I've met and skied with through him around the Alps. I retain my scepticism of gap year qualified instructors in some aspects of mountain knowledge and safety.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Jakejenks wrote: |
| I retain my scepticism of gap year qualified instructors in some aspects of mountain knowledge and safety. |
Gap courses generally aim to get their students to Level 1 or Level 2 instructor qualifications. These qualify instructors to teach on-piste only. Instructors at L1 and L2 shouldn't be teaching off-piste unless they have additional mountain safety qualifications.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Jakejenks wrote: |
| I guess I got very lucky with who I met 20 years ago and my perception has been skewed to thinking everyone is of the level of the people I've met and skied with through him around the Alps. |
It would be great if everyone's experience of ski teaching was as positive as yours. In discussion with clients I've been teaching over the past week their experience of instruction with ESF was not positive, unfortunately.
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| Jakejenks wrote: |
/bowtosuperiorknowledge
I guess I got very lucky with who I met 20 years ago and my perception has been skewed to thinking everyone is of the level of the people I've met and skied with through him around the Alps. |
That's all very relative, I'm sure a lot of people could say similar things about their lifelong instructors, thing is if they've never tried the alternatives, how would they know the difference?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Jakejenks, I don't think that you should represent your experience of a single individual as a valid opinion about the ESF in general. I think it's a valid opinion...of one individual and you should have posted it as such. Good to hear about it though not perhaps all that helpful as I'm sure lots of people have met good instructors in the ESF's echelons (I certainly have) and even those who haven't realise they can't all be bad! Nothing, of course, to do with the Euro Speed Test. It's got nothing to do with safety or teaching. It primarily relates to prior ski racing experience and youth. And of course rob@rar is quite right, those most qualified to take you properly off piste aren't ski instructors whether ESF/FEMPS or otherwise.
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This is not a lot different to my industry - which is automotive tuition usually race circuits etc. To be a good instructor requires a different skill set to being a good driver yourself. Its about an ability to spot flaws & instruct people around these flaws. teach technique or new skill, Its not until you reach the level where your pupil is up to your level ie super fast (at which point you often will not want to be in the car with them!)
I think if you want to learn your better off finding an instructor you can along with & who's happy to teach at your skill level
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This is all unecessary, just say your name is 'Herr Prinz' and the French will let you teach wherever you like, no hassle. Should work in the UK too.
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FAQ
. My main concern beyond standard of teaching is safety of clients. As I said in my original post in the thread I am a bit biased as I've skied with the same instructor for 20 years and have got to know him and his circle of friends who are fellow instructors very well, this obviously distorts my view but I wanted to offer my perspective 