 Poster: A snowHead
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| Pedantica wrote: |
Fifespud,
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only go where you see other tracks.
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Equally, that's no guarantee of safety. |
True, you could end up doing this........
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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One little piece of advice is only go where you see other tracks. If there are none there is probably a very good reason
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fixx, Caveat to that - just becasue there's tracks don't assume its safe to go there! It may have been at the time the tracks were laid down, but not necessarily now. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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One little piece of advice is only go where you see other tracks.
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Unless you know where your going when your off piste NEVER follow other peoples tracks 
As others have said, you never know where your going to end up, the conditions may have changed and the people who made the tracks maybe laying under a avi or fallen off a cliff themselves.
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moffatross, Sometimes you can avoid it, but shortcuts are not always available.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Chattonmill, that's a relatively benign example. And you even had a rope.
We once observed some skiers (from across the valley) following 2 tracks towards the cliffs at the bottom of the Pas de Chevre (Chamonix) - but far from any way through them. The first people had presumably climbed up again, enough to traverse back to the way through; but evening was fast coming on and the light fading. We had to call in a helicopter which must have cost them a fortune!
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snowball, I know, but it shows what following tracks can do!
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fixx,
You should really get some off-piste lessons. That will make a massive difference to your enjoyment. Find a reliable and well thought of off-piste guiding/teaching operation. Speak to them about your expectations, standard, and experience. Ski with experienced guides, they will find the best snow and terrain for you.
If you start venturing off-piste then you really must be with a mountain guide or very knowledgeable local. You should also have all of the required equipment, and be able to use it.
Please do not ever just follow other tracks, unless you already know where you are going and you understand the conditions - that can be very dangerous. A friend of mine followed some tracks in Verbier and discovered that the skiers had rappelled down a cliff, a difficult two hour climb was the only way out. In St Anton on a bluebird day a group of three riders followed the tracks of the group I was in. We had already left that particular aspect due to the sun now warming the fresh snow and making it unstable and dangerous. They were caught in an avalanche and two died.
You will have a wonderful time skiing off-piste, but be aware of the risks and try to minimize those risks.
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In St Anton on a bluebird day a group of three riders followed the tracks of the group I was in. We had already left that particular aspect due to the sun now warming the fresh snow and making it unstable and dangerous. They were caught in an avalanche and two died
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JayDub, Where/ when?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Markymark29,
Rendl, St Anton, February half-term 2007 (I think the year is correct.) I think they may have been Swedish. Very sad indeed.
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When our group skied La Voute in La Grave the guide got us to ski the first bit in each others tracks so it didn't look like lots of skiers had gone that way. The reason was you need a rope to get down the cliff at the end of the glacier. Some others had followed tracks to there previously and got into real trouble - took a full scale rescue.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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JayDub, Think I remember, was it just to the right of Riffl 2, and the av came across the piste, or was it the one in Hinterrendl just below Shimelegg?..............BTW sorry to drag up old memories but I ski up there a lot and want to get intel if I can so I know more about the area. PM me if you prefer.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Pedantica wrote: |
Fifespud,
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only go where you see other tracks.
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Equally, that's no guarantee of safety. |
Good point well made.
However I hardly think the OP is going immediately back country - it's more likely to be the little triangle in the centre of Lac de Vaux.
To clarify if your going way off piste, and you don't know where you're going, and nobody in your group is an advanced, experienced back country man - get an instructor or guide.
If your just pootering about between pistes it's fairly safe to observe what others are safely completing, observing perhaps whilst your on the chairlift, then following their route.
This is certainly how I first got my confidence up whilst getting used to unpisted snow under my skis.
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| Fifespud wrote: |
If your just pootering about between pistes it's fairly safe to observe what others are safely completing, observing perhaps whilst your on the chairlift, then following their route.
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Sorry, have to disagree on that. Most people killed in avalanches in the Alps are within a short distance of pistes. As soon as you leave the piste you have to assess the terrain you're going into- a little convexity, a small gully, a different slope aspect, any number of things can be dangerous. I remember sitting on a chair lift with Nick Quinn of Snoworks last year, aghast at a small group of kids who were just off piste, but standing on a massive crack that went all the way across the crown of the slope that they were on (av. risk 4 that day). They were lucky that time, and in a way that's the point- you'll usually be lucky, but that doesn't mean you weren't in danger, and who wants to trust their life to luck.
What you're describing is well-recognised in analysis of the cause of avalanche accidents, and comes under the broad catagory of a "heuristic error". In other words, the use of previous human experience to make a decision. In this case, we make the mental short cut of "other people are doing it (i.e. social validation), so it must be safe". Unfortunately these heuristics don't work well in avalanche terrain, and can often lead to dangerous decisions. Assess the snowpack, the terrain etc. yourself, don't base your decision on what others are doing on it. For all you knw they could be absolutely clueless.
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You know it makes sense.
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Can someone explain why convex terrain surfaces present an increased risk.
It seems intuitive that a concave surface can channel an avalanche flow.
Thanks.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Two factors- 1. the slope steepens as you progress down the convexity and steepness is a key factor in determining the risk of a slide. For slab avalanches (by far the most common type), release is rare in slopes <25 degrees, and peaks at a gradient of 35 degrees. 2. The gradient change can cause weakness of the snowpack at that point (imagine bending some plasticine, and thinking where the cracks appear- basically at the bend).
You're right, concave slopes can also be dangerous if they act as a terrain trap.
Hope that helps!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Feast, Basically tension in the snowpack causing by gravity pulling it down. Snow isn't very strong in tension, thats why a snowmans arms fall off. A concave slope is under pressure and therefore less likely to slide. Thats why the snowmans head doesn't crush his own body.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Also some element of the shallow(er)-angle lower slope supporting the snow of the higher steep section on a concave slope. On a convex slope, nothing is supporting the steeper section, so more likely to slide (if all other factors are equal).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Oops, robapplegate already said it.
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Hi, Interesting reading this thread, as I'm looking at off-piste now. You can only go so fast on piste, within the bounds of safety 
I'm, interested in the Ski sizes. I have Fischer AMC 76 - classed as 'All Mountain'. What would you experienced off-pisters recommend as the starting waste size?
Cheers
Gaz
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Gaz_H, you can start on those skis just fine!
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| evski wrote: |
| (av. risk 4 that day). |
Aargh! I ski powder but don't consider myself an off-piste skier as I normally ski on my own and my gear, in those circumstances, won't help that much. Not sure if people will understand the distinction. But everybody should check the local bulletins, consider the recent weather and realise runs are closed for a reason. On my own I'll do cut-offs and straightforward runs, everything else being OK. So at my local hill Pila, for example, I'd ski the Couis 1 and 2 bowls which have some protection from Gazex's, and are visible under the chairs but wouldn't go do the Plat de Geyvron or over the back at C2 without others. I've a good idea on the lines to take, where the bumps and dips are and where the slides first appear in spring, but being cautious doesn't mean you can't have fun. I do look back on some holiday runs from the past; Verbier and Avoriaz both off the back spring to mind, and shudder!
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| evski wrote: |
| Fifespud wrote: |
If your just pootering about between pistes it's fairly safe to observe what others are safely completing, observing perhaps whilst your on the chairlift, then following their route.
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Sorry, have to disagree on that. Most people killed in avalanches in the Alps are within a short distance of pistes. As soon as you leave the piste you have to assess the terrain you're going into- a little convexity, a small gully, a different slope aspect, any number of things can be dangerous. I remember sitting on a chair lift with Nick Quinn of Snoworks last year, aghast at a small group of kids who were just off piste, but standing on a massive crack that went all the way across the crown of the slope that they were on (av. risk 4 that day). They were lucky that time, and in a way that's the point- you'll usually be lucky, but that doesn't mean you weren't in danger, and who wants to trust their life to luck.
What you're describing is well-recognised in analysis of the cause of avalanche accidents, and comes under the broad catagory of a "heuristic error". In other words, the use of previous human experience to make a decision. In this case, we make the mental short cut of "other people are doing it (i.e. social validation), so it must be safe". Unfortunately these heuristics don't work well in avalanche terrain, and can often lead to dangerous decisions. Assess the snowpack, the terrain etc. yourself, don't base your decision on what others are doing on it. For all you knw they could be absolutely clueless. |
Out of interest where did you get your evidence that backs up your claim that 'Most people killed in avalanches in the Alps are within a short distance of pistes'.
Anytime I have read anything about it my take has been that about 70% of avalanche deaths are ski tourers.
Observing people whilst on a chairlift pootering off and back on piste again, safely, than following their tracks is miles safer than expecting a novice to 'assess the terrain' then blindly skiing off into no man's land. Any novice who has a couple of off piste lessons then thinks they can assess the terrain so heads off into untracked back country is putting themselves at far greater risk than what I am proposing.
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Hi all,
Wanted pop back to say thank you very much for all your advice so far.
I booked an off-piste intro lesson on the PSB which was just fantastic. There were a few falls, and occasionally getting bogged down when I couldn’t convince myself to go fast enough! But it was soft and lots of fun. The instructor was fab, as were the rest of my group (thanks all, especially TallTone and little_ms_spock!).
I booked a few more lessons there too, and we played in a bit of off-piste on the Thursday too in one of the Group lessons, so I was getting a little more confident.
I’ve taken away a lot of stuff to work on in terms of general technique from the PSB lessons, so I’ll focus on that next weekend (very much piste based!), and have a look at booking a private lesson re. offpiste in Verbier if the weather/snow/risk level is about right.
I’ll also still be spending lots of time on-piste, happily cruising  No serious back-country for me – not yet anyway… And I’m sure the Verbier pistes aren’t so dreadful that off-piste is the only option!
I’m definitely a safety first girl, so won’t be jumping onto anything I’m not sure about. Good points about following/not following tracks – scary! Even before the PSB I’ve had the odd brief play just off the sides of pistes before a couple of times on easy slopes, which I’ll keep doing where suitable.
I’ll start looking for good deals on the proper safety kit, and will hire in the meantime when I need it – it’ll be while I think before I’m heading offpiste much, given how much else I have to work on.
never summer, thanks for the reminder about Penseyres – I used them last year for servicing, and they were great, but had totally forgotten about them! I popped in on the way home that day to have a quick chat about their stock etc, and went back 3 weeks ago with a boot, and came out with a brand new pair of Scott Luna skis on season hire, all set up Right from day 1 of the PSB they were fab, and continued to be so all week – great on-piste, and in the deeper stuff they just ate it up, no matter what it was. Any issues were very much down to me and my skiing, not the skis. Massive difference from last year when I was avoiding anything soft on my old skis, now I’m hunting it out 
I love the photos and videos – Chattonmill that’s a really interesting one on Tortin. Looks long and tricky. I see what you mean about the sudden drop off, good to know!
Last edited by After all it is free  on Wed 12-12-12 10:31; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Although I go to Verbier for the huge off-piste options the itineraries can be good (avalanche controlled but not groomed or otherwise patrolled).
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Another reason for taking a guide is insurance - I was recovered by heli after tearing ligaments somewhere the other side of tortin, (not entirely sure where but involved about 20 mins skinning), my insurance for recovery wouldnt have been vaild had I gne there with mates alone, rather than official guide.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Fifespud wrote: |
expecting a novice to 'assess the terrain' then blindly skiing off into no man's land. Any novice who has a couple of off piste lessons then thinks they can assess the terrain so heads off into untracked back country is putting themselves at far greater risk than what I am proposing. |
I'm surprised you drew that conclusion from what I wrote. I think/hope what I'm saying isn't controversial. It is easy to unwittingly end up in dangerous terrain very near the piste- I think all will agree. Given that, what is the best strategy to stay safe? I'm simply saying that seeing other people skiing a particular slope without harm does not make it safe. And even a little avalanche education can teach people to stay safe. For example, rather than saying- "I'd like to try a little off piste, so I'm going to ski where those people are", a safer approach would be, "I'd like to try a little off-piste, so I'm going to check out that low angle terrain that's not exposed to steeper slopes", and I think the latter is the approach we should be encouraging. Having said that, it's a free world and people can read through both of our comments and decide which approach they prefer.
But you're right about "most avalanches occur near a piste", I was thinking about the off-piste situation rather than touring, which as you correctly say accounts for about 70% of fatalities in most series. Apologies, I should have written many rather than most.
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| evski wrote: |
| Fifespud wrote: |
expecting a novice to 'assess the terrain' then blindly skiing off into no man's land. Any novice who has a couple of off piste lessons then thinks they can assess the terrain so heads off into untracked back country is putting themselves at far greater risk than what I am proposing. |
I'm surprised you drew that conclusion from what I wrote. I think/hope what I'm saying isn't controversial. It is easy to unwittingly end up in dangerous terrain very near the piste- I think all will agree. Given that, what is the best strategy to stay safe? I'm simply saying that seeing other people skiing a particular slope without harm does not make it safe. And even a little avalanche education can teach people to stay safe. For example, rather than saying- "I'd like to try a little off piste, so I'm going to ski where those people are", a safer approach would be, "I'd like to try a little off-piste, so I'm going to check out that low angle terrain that's not exposed to steeper slopes", and I think the latter is the approach we should be encouraging. Having said that, it's a free world and people can read through both of our comments and decide which approach they prefer.
But you're right about "most avalanches occur near a piste", I was thinking about the off-piste situation rather than touring, which as you correctly say accounts for about 70% of fatalities in most series. Apologies, I should have written many rather than most. |
I drew the conclusion because you said - 'Assess the snowpack, the terrain etc. yourself'
I didn't think there was anything controversial about what I said either, but apparently there was!!
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You know it makes sense.
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Fair enough, it's easy to convey the wrong impression in a few lines.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Gilbert at Adrenaline is good, or if he is booked up I imagine the other guides on the company would be OK. Guides are VERY expensive in Verbier, though (and with the current exchange rate, probably expensive in Switzerland in general).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If there are none there is probably a very good reason.
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yeah, the other barstewards haven't gotten there and tracked it out yet!
One good way of minimising your chances of triggering a slide are to watch where other skiiers are going in the days prior to you heading into the back of beyond. Wait until there is a nice dump then lay some tracks where you have seen them going previously. It's not fullproof but at your stage it's def a way to learn from others. N.B. if it's just one dude in a fluro outfit - prob best to discount them as a source of good slope intel ... Also a group of people not wearing any helmets/sacs should be discounted as well.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
| Also a group of people not wearing any helmets/sacs should be discounted as well. |
I've only ever skied with one high mountain Guide who wore a helmet. Also older skiers tended not to wear them (though if my friends are anything to go by they are starting to pick up the habit from younger skiers).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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So, a quick update from me
I’ve been popping more and more off the sides of pistes the last few weeks, as there have been loads of lovely fresh snow at the weekends, and quiet resorts, woohoo! And so lots of powder to play in with little effort. Also skied a couple of beautiful unpisted black runs with deep powder and not a lot of traffic last weekend, which was bliss.
And then this weekend a couple of friends organised a girls weekend away in the PdS, and booked an all day instructor/guide for the most advanced 6 of us yesterday, woohoo!
So we spent the first few runs on piste checking and fixing elements of our technique, then took us all over the place for the rest of the day doing lots of lift-served off-piste runs! I did skip the steepest part of one run (traversed in lower down) and all of the Swiss wall (no, not off-piste, but he thought it would be fun mogul practice before lunch! ) but had lots of fun on everything else, and my technique definitely improved during the day with his very useful tuition. It did highlight quite a few areas for me to work on though, so I’ll be practicing a lot on-piste this weekend
Anyway, so much fun!
Our guide didn’t exactly seem gutted either at having to spend all day with 6 girls 
If anyone needs a friendly English speaking teacher/guide in the PdS, definitely look up Billy at http://www.billski.co.uk
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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To add my tuppence to some of opening questions:
Level: you should definitely be comfortable black slope skier, able to get down ANY black in any condition (including ungroomed runs). Someone not able to do all the blacks in a resort going off-piste makes no sense to me. You don't need to be able to rip moguls, but you should be able to get down any pisted steep slope with big moguls without falling.
I have also heard most avalanche deaths occur within 200m of marked piste. Maybe this excludes tourers killed outside ski area. Basically, do not ski outside marked pistes at all without guide or very good confidence they are safe. If you see untracked powder close to a piste you should ask yourself why the 200 skiers who went down before you didn't ski it.
Initially, ALL off-piste should be done with guide or instructor (not friend)
Don't need to wait if your level is up to it. It is definitely best to be fresh. It should not be overly physically demanding if technique is right. If it feels very strenuous you are probably skiing in back seat
If you are happy enough getting down Tortin then get your guide organized and go for it.
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patricksh, I have to disagree on several points. Firstly everyone should be skiing off piste from the get go there are plenty of beginner and intermediate off piste terrain and conditions. Most pitches they would be willing to ski aren't really avi terrain for a start! Secondly there are plenty of very safe people around without qualifications. I've taken a friend touring in ankle deep light powder after five days on skis in a perfectly safe manner for example. It's still pretty normal in other mountain sports to have no formal instruction and learn everything 'on the job'. My first ever climbing trips were doing mountain routes in the Cairngorms with a more experienced friend for another example.
You need to be careful and prepared to learn stuff, not terrified and reliant on experts. Although they do definitely have a place.
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| meh wrote: |
My first ever climbing trips were doing mountain routes in the Cairngorms with a more experienced friend for another example.
You need to be careful and prepared to learn stuff, not terrified and reliant on experts. Although they do definitely have a place. |
Second that meh, getting away from it all isn't about being spoon-fed bowls of safe, sunny, fresh powder. Scotland's mountains are an amazing place for discovery and a quicker place than the Alps to become adept at navigating and orientating in poor visibility, dealing with irregular wind-ripped and sastrugied snow, coping with ice and neve, working around rocks and running water and linking snow patches through terrain and vegetation etc. Powder skiing, when it does click, feels really, stupidly simple compared to everything else you've learned to deal with. Just about the only experience a few seasons bimbling about Scotland can't directly provide the adventurous skier is glacier / crevasse awareness.
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| Quote: |
Level: you should definitely be comfortable black slope skier, able to get down ANY black in any condition (including ungroomed runs). Someone not able to do all the blacks in a resort going off-piste makes no sense to me.
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Rubbish.
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Initially, ALL off-piste should be done with guide or instructor (not friend)
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Rubbish.
There is plenty of offpiste that's easier than many black runs in certain conditions, and often more fun. Mellow low angle offpiste, as long as there isn't anything above, is almost certainly safe from avalanches, especially if you stick the below (avi) level 3. Of course people do still need to educate themselves about avi conditions, terrain choices, etc.
Sometimes this forum can give the impression that the only way to safely ski offpiste is with a guide, which I find pretty frustrating.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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meh, moffatross, clarky999, thanks – a bit more reassuring. I was wondering why they didn’t specify “must be able to ski all blacks” when booking on the “intro to off-piste session” at the PSB, and our instructor taking our level 5 group was quite happy to take us offpiste in our group lessons too…
But, I like hearing the range of opinions on this site, including those from patricksh – I think it’s a good thing to have many views, particularly when it comes to activities that can be more dangerous, and safety is important – it’s good to have the dangers pointed out. It’s better than absolutely everyone saying go for it, and people not realising the dangers.
This weekend will be a little calmer, (though I’ll still hop off the sides if I’ve had a good look at anything and consider it safe) and I’ve got some private lessons booked during my next week away in Feb with a very experienced instructor (and my absolute favourite) – we’ll be discussing off-piste in depth, as he has done a lot, taught a lot, and led rescues in his resort. And he’ll no doubt tear my technique to shreds (Oh, and he was dragging me off the sides of pistes last year while still trying to teach me to ski parallel turns! - to teach me to deal with snow other than perfectly groomed pistes)
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Clearly, patricksh had not bother to read the rest of the thread before replying. Given what's transpired between the initial post and the latest update, his "answers" are now entirely out of context and therefore somewhat irrelevant.
While it's best to have an open mind and listen to all advices, it's also necessary to pin those not applicable to the situation.
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FAQ
