 Poster: A snowHead
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In the 90's recession I heard Law Society tales about one/two partner firms where the secretary was earning more than either of the partners. She would be on a wage and nothing was coming through the door so the partners paid her then took the minimum they could out of their dwindling reserves. Many practices had to shut down and those that didn't got hit with the very large increases in indemnity insurance costs that followed the slow climb out of recession. To this day the effect of that indemnity insurance rise means that the concept of a sole legal practioner/solicitor is more or less dead.
No one has to hire a lawyer - ever. You have a right to represent yourself as an adult in every court and official hearing you choose. There is nothing that says you have to have a lawyer to convey your property. Hands up those of you who wish to do your own conveyancing? Represent yourself at a trial? Thought so.
That said Bigrobski, it did sound a little bit like ambulance chasing. I am sure that was not your intention but I suggest you balance any such query in future with an enquiry into the up-side of the whole experience as well i.e where an employer has gone above and beyond at a time of distress for an employee.
In my experience it's about evens. I have seen some employers that I thought were taking the p!ss in terms of hours and duties and some staff who should have not been let near either (i) alcohol or (ii) food preperation (certainly not at the same time in the case of one slightly crispy chalet girl). I also think there are many well run places with fair employment practices and that, as observed above, the bad ones tend to go to the wall anyway. It's a relatively small community and a bad reputation as an employer tends to stick and get around. Often the problems derive from different levels of expectation and that is often the fault of the employees and their desires not matching the reality of demanding guests and tight time schedules. It's a job, in the final analysis, not an extended holiday.
Haggis_Trap, swing away, m8 - I've heard it all. But I find that I've done more pro bono and charity work than most other people and I am hyper-critical about many in my profession who I ardently hope get out of it for the sake of the rest of us.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
| Haggis_Trap, swing away, m8 - I've heard it all. But I find that I've done more pro bono and charity work than most other people and I am hyper-critical about many in my profession who I ardently hope get out of it for the sake of the rest of us. |
Jimmy Saville did charity work too....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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…and where did he learn his yodelling?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| luckysmartie wrote: |
I worked last winter as a middle manager in a chalethotel, with a lot of responsibility and stress (and practically no training) for £60 a week, unhealthy and sometimes not properly cooked staff food (I believe their budget per staff member per day was a whole €3.50) and an admittedly very nice shared room but a good 35 min walk from the centre of the resort (8 of the guys lived in the old sauna, you can imagine how that went). I got a £500 bonus at the end of the season.
This summer I worked in the alps as a rep for a different company, had a week's training, managers who generally knew what they were doing, and a good working atmosphere. I got £125 a week plus commission (which was sometimes an extra €60 a week), a very nice shared flat (with two balconies and a spare room), and hotel meals several times a week. My bonus at the end of this season will be about £1000.
It's all about who you work for. Suffice to say it's the second company who get the German graduate with two seasons experience working for them this winter. Pay peanuts, get monkeys  |
Must be pointed out that seasonaire wages in the summer are on the whole better and staff accomodation better too.
I got paid £90 a week as a driver/host last winter and I lived in a flat with two others where the bedroom was only big enough for one person so two of us had beds in the, admittedly very large, living/kitchen/dining room. This summer for the same role I got paid £150 a week, whatever I wanted outside of what was being cooked (I worked for a cookery school was on the budget (within reason, no beers/shitty sweets/chocolate/expensive UK stuff etc) and I lived in a luxury chalet with my own double room, ensuite, balcony and telly. I also get paid nearly double that to work as a general labourer in the alps currently and live in the same sort of accomodation, now just minus ensuite, and have to buy my own food.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Jimmy Saville did charity work too....
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Bet you never have.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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ok
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 22-10-13 9:56; edited 1 time in total
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Detecting a little bitterness towards Rob, he only asked a question of passing interest.
Excuse the term swings and roundabouts but it is like that out on season. Yes you get a low wage and work long hours, sometimes have angry guests venting their frustration at you and go through the mid season blues. Ive also heard of people being fired near the end of the season and thus losing their bonus and commitment bond. (it can be dodgy but lets face it, pretty certain theyre not the only company that have harsh rules) Saying that, the people who I knew who were fired were lets face it 'on thin ice' for a long time because their work and attitude was shocking. I knew people who should have been fired because of their mistakes, sleeping in and missing breakfast etc however their personality was very valuble and the company knew this and also were aware that they were loved by guests - which resulted in said people keeping their jobs but just receiving a punishment. its made clear pre-season that you are guna work hard and play hard too - just dont be a dingbat and do your job, its simple.
With the negatives out of the way, the positives brush the negs aside with ease. Everything is paid for, so what you earn is in your pocket, I managed to save a bit of cash - as the season goes on you quickly learn how to save cash, get to know bar staff and receive freebies etc. and to top it off, riding the slopes nearly everyday! In our hotel we had it down, we went out riding on transfer day because we were lets face it awesome at our job. A ski season isnt for everybody but those that work with it instead of against it have the time of their lives and I for one cant wait for this coming winter! Bottom line is do your job, dont be a dingbat and get on with the fun thats their to be had!
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Best piece of advice a lawyer can give? "Avoid lawyers".
Perhaps we should all aspire to a utopia in which the workers live in palaces, are paid handsomely and have dedicated shuttle buses to ferry them around. And prices for the hard-pressed consumer are frozen for at least the first 20 months after the next election ...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Lawyer and former chalet slave here! I was a 40 year old chalet bird some years ago. The overall experience was great, but not quite what I had planned, as I had gone out to be the chalet cook (and done a 10 week cookery course at my own expense), only to have my role changed to ski host. Not that I am complaining about skiing everyday  ! But I also cooked 2 days a week ( by choice), did the breakfast and dinner duties with the boys and had about 2.5 hours off between getting back with the guests to starting the evening shift 4 days per week. I hosted 4 days a week for 18 weeks, and I think there were only hosting 2 days when I didn't go out with guests. How lovely to have the time to myself! That aspect was the hardest for a single gal who had left her own home behind. On days off I just went out in my own to get some head space.
Wages modest, hours-long. I wasn't in it for the nightlife and was usually tucked up in bed within 15 mins of the end of the kitchen clear up at the end of the day. No need to worry about the modest wages as I never had the energy to go out and spend them!
I know I and the Aussie boys I worked with in our 19 person chalet helped maintain the ski companies' reputation for great food and a great atmosphere. We weren't badly treated and have a full 3v pass for the season. We all had a work ethic though, and the company tended towards recruiting maturer people. Not that they didn't ever throw Wobblies! Some people go out to work a season, even sometime the mature ones, without any sense of what they are taking on.
The one thing I would have really appreciated was a proper thank you from the company owners at the end. They know how lucky they were to have us, but I never got any pats on the back.
I am back lawyering now, but if I could I'd run my own chalet business, so, despite the hard work, it obviously didn't put me off.
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Bigrobski, you talk in the first post of the difference between French and English employment law. A close friend of mine is French and is the general manager of a very large hotel and apartment complex in La Plagne. In his experience, the employee has the law weighted far too much in their favour and he has found it very difficult to dismiss seasonal staff that have repeatedly not turned up or been late, drunk,stoned etc and they get paid 3 or 4 times as much. I worked seasons, worked extremely long hours, especially on transfer day, got verbally abused, spat at but on the whole had a great time and I knew how much I was going to be paid before I signed the contract.
My point is that seasonal staff are expected to work very hard for a low salary, basic living conditions and there may be a few naive ones who expect to be living a glamorous lifestyle and sure, there are some companies that are better run than others but the reason they are paid badly is because of us, the general public.
The UK holiday industry is totally price driven. Our expectations are to pay as little as possible and expect 5 star treatment. Workers from other countries are paid more because their customers pay more for effectively the same thing. Strangely, they seem to complain less as well. The Dutch are a classic example of this. It's such a shame to see so many British people going away for a week and moaning about everything and constantly complaining to chalet staff, who are the face of the company. Maybe this is why so many staff are unhappy and stressed and feel underpaid/ valued.
The 'professional' complainers first started appearing when I was working over 10 years ago but now people just seem to have a go about anything and everything to see what they can get, possibly as a result of a cancer that is being spread in our society by the likes of law firms that occupy every other TV ad slot and bombard us with the 'No win, no fee' mentality....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Bigrobski wrote: |
Hi,
I have been skiing for a long time and I have seen a lot and heard a lot in resorts and from chalet staff about the way the ski industry works. Skiing is big business and the model seems to be for holiday companies to make as much as possible while working their staff hard for minimal wages. Gap year students, unrepentant ski bums and professional seasonal workers make up the majority of the ranks of workers and there appears to be a general acceptance that the wages will be low but the experience is worth it.
Last year there was a dispute between a group of chalet workers and their employer which resulted in the former occupying a chalet in the three valleys. I followed the story as best I could, given that it did not attract significant media attention, and I understand that the French authorities were not unsupportive. As a lawyer it has set me thinking about employee rights in France for seasonal workers. French employment law is complex and very much balanced in favour of the employee. English employment law is far more flexible and slightly tilted in favour of the employer but employees still enjoy a significant number of rights whether or not they are on a fixed term contract or not.
From the stories I have heard where there is a dispute the employee and employer usually just part company and the employee either heads home or gets another job in resort. However I have also been told of employers compelling employees to sign false declarations under the European Working Time Directive, bullying employees, physical and verbal abuse and the withholding of pay. I am interested to hear from anyone who has taken on a British registered ski company in an employment dispute whatever the outcome.
To be clear this is just a bit of fact finding and I am not offering free legal advice or trying to build up trade I am simply genuinely interested to know what is happening.
Many thanks,
Rob |
I have had some horror stories from my times working in a Chalet, I've done a lot of seasons and worked for some excellent companies, as well as some bad ones... plus some so-so ones...
The truth is on Some occasions you are expected to work yourself into the ground... I once had a 3 hour window to changeover a chalet for 12 people (after already cooking breakfast for 12 and hosting them that morning) the departures left at midday (2 hours later than they were supposed to, because they were the boses family I couldn't ask them to leave the chalet at the normal time of 10am. The new arrivals where due at 3pmish... I said to the owner that it can't clean the chalet to a high enough standard in that time... and I asked for some help, I was told 'NO'. after frantically running around for 3 hours the new guests arrived to a less than perfect chalet, but I did the best I could. Once they'd arrived and I got them into their rooms I sat and answered their questions about the chalet, the skiing etc etc (now its gone 4pm and I haven't a single morsel of food all day) the guests were very talkative and as a chalet host it's my job to chat to them etc, the owner came back at about 4.30 - 5pm to take the dirty laundry, at which time I managed to go home just long enough to have some food and a shower before heading back to the chalet to cook dinner at 6pm... after cooking and serving 12 people a 5 course dinner and tidying up I left about 9.30pm having been on my feet doing physically demanding work for 14 hours I went home to bed... alarm set at 7am ready for breakkie and chalet shop day involving another 10hour day... I burst out crying come dinner time because I was just so exhausted... and before anyone says it, I did not go skiing for at least a week, it took me so long to get over the exhaustion whilst continuing to work.
Sometimes you are expected to go too far.
My big gripe with the industry though is... Why are most chalets hosted by people with little or no relevant experience in catering... As this lawyer rightly says, if you were to have an accident of some kind you would want a professional lawyer there... if you were to go to a restaurant you'd want a chef to prepare and cook your meal, not someone with no clue... surely!!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I've worked a fair few seasons and the big UK tour operators don't always treat their staff well, usually because they know how easy it is to replace them. Worked one season where there were 7 people sleeping in a smallish room and one bathroom. You can't say that the rent for that room was £28000 for the season. I worked for a smaller company with another english girl and a french girl and the French girl got treated much better simply because she was French and thus had to be treated according to French law whereas we Englich could be treated according to UK law because the company was registered in the UK. Left pretty sharpish... At the end of the day a lot of people doing season work for big companys tend to be young adults (18/19) so take any job they can get and don't really know what they're entitled to. They don't have a lot of experience so they're not always treated well but if they enjoy skiing or snowboarding enough then they deal with it because they get to ski everyday. Most chalet companys treat you well but theres just that few... In my opinion anyway.
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Simple fact is that prices for ski holidays have significantly reduced in real terms over the years caused by competition between operator's and the ever increasing ease of shopping around for flights and accommodation on the internet .
Margins for operators are minimal so only way they can provide a chalet service is relying on a constant supply of college leavers, gap students who want to experience a season and don't mind being paid peanuts for the privilege of doing so.
Easy to get into a debate of yes staff should be paid well with decent accommodation and chefs be qualified for what they are doing but I'm afraid you get what you pay for.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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As a manager with 10 winter seasons under my belt, so much of what has been said on here is recognizable, both good & bad. I would just say though that when a company deliberately manipulates pay rates and working hours to cheat new local laws as happened last season in Austria, then that is really bad. Before anyone says, "you know what you signed up for", they also changed contracts and asked that originals be destroyed so Austrian authorities didn't see them after the season start! Overall I think if working for a reputable company, it is a good experience. Accommodation is without doubt the biggest cost for staff and unless you are wealthy, very few people could afford to stay a. whole season in a ski resort. If the lawyer wants any further info from me feel free to PM me,
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think, @TheLegoSkiMan, @Old Man Of Lech, that general interest here died a few years ago ... Thread necromancy
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@under a new name, i think lego needs to be renamed as thetinnedporkbasedskiman as he is just pimping his wordpress blog which i am sure given the footfall on here will soon be exploited for all its security loopholes and will shortly be hosting no end of dodgy links..
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FAQ
