 Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
When the guy crashes out why did he go?
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ahh... are you talking about extension & retraction of the legs "pedalling" the guy in particular never really stands/extends over his outside ski and looks like he loses grip of it...."scurry's off to find a new box of guesses" 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| gatecrasher wrote: |
| ahh... are you talking about extension & retraction of the legs "pedalling" the guy in particular never really stands/extends over his outside ski |
Exactly right. Few of them are creating pressure at the start of the turn by having a positive extension of the legs. As a result not much grip and in the shorts not much turning. Consequently they have to use a lot of rotary to make the short radius turns work for them. Similar seen on the longs, so although they are getting good early edge angle the skis don't engage well with the snow until relatively late in the turn.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, your not suppose to give up the answers in MA  I would would also add to Robs and gatecrasher, comments that there is WAY too much flex at the knees causing the hips to go aft, especially on the longs most of em sit down quickly and ride the tails.
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how about looking at an individual what do you see in this guys skiing https://vimeo.com/33301573 (except for the crap punter tuck at the end  )
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Phew! Must have listened on occasions! 
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He's struggling with the Line on the steeper gates and loosing time having to make a tighter (skidded) turn than would be ideal for him. It may be the course, but I'm seeing an asymmetry between left and right arcs.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| rob@rar, your not suppose to give up the answers in MA |
Sorry, couldn't resist!
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Tricky one, would be unfair to judge a single skier without being able to fully appreciate the terrain he's skiing or have a reference of other skiers of a known ability skiing the same terrain. This may well be a very good skier in normal circumstances that is currently skiing in survival mode! Take away the gates or change the terrain and we may see a very different skier.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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gatecrasher, Have a think about how the pressure on the skis is going to vary throughout each turn and what will be causing this.
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gatecrasher, also think about how much edge angle he is using for the speed he wants to carry through a GS turn radius.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| gatecrasher, also think about how much edge angle he is using for the speed he wants to carry through a GS turn radius. |
That's the thing... does this guy "really" want to carry more speed or is he deliberately scrubbing it off? Obviously there's a lot he can do to carry more speed but I'm not convinced he's committing himself. skimottaret, is this a good example of his skiing in general?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Come on! .... they were all pretty good ... just Father Christmas looked a bit stiff and wobbly!
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gatecrasher, The slope doesn't look steep to me.
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You know it makes sense.
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| gatecrasher wrote: |
| That's the thing... does this guy "really" want to carry more speed or is he deliberately scrubbing it off? |
If he is consciously or subconsciously scrubbing off speed what might the the reason for that?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, because he may be getting on a bit have a very big mortgage and is poo poo scared! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| gatecrasher wrote: |
| rob@rar, because he may be getting on a bit have a very big mortgage and is poo poo scared! |
Difficult to tell his psychological state at the time without being there, but on some of the turns his skis skid and drift. At the speed he's skiing at that's going to be disconcerting, to say the least. What would give his skis more grip?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Doing my best to post this without reading other subsequent posts so apologies if this has already been covered: skimottaret asked what they all, bar one, have in common.
They're is a noticeable range in their ability but they're all good (as you'd expect at this level). The first thing that springs to mind while watching them is missing or token pole plants particularly in the short radius turns (I wouldn't really expect them in the large radius turns). Then lack of upper and lower body separation, but this is quite variable (some have it, some are banking rather than angulating, some have shoulders following the skis a little) so not what I think you're getting at. Then looking in more detail the upper body is often very upright; the textbooks say we should have the upper body angled further forward than the lower leg and this isn't the case in these examples. It's hard to judge this in all phases of the turn so it may just be during the transition when we see them in profile, and it's certainly not a problem for all of them.
For the short radius turns I'd prefer to see the rotation a bit more progressive; I know it's not going to be carved but for some the turn is being snatched at pretty aggressively. That might be what has been requested though.
There's not a lot of extension going on to initiate the turn; a couple show this well especially in the longer radius turns, but for some it's missing altogether particularly from the short radius turns.
The guy who fell looked to be doing a lot of things right, ironically.
So I don't see one thing that they all have in common I'm afraid, but if I had to pick one or two things to work on with the whole group it would be (i) posture as that's so fundamental and could still be improved despite them being obviously good skiers; and (ii) extension going into the turn to get more pressure on the outside ski.
Right, now I'm going to read what everyone else has said...
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...and I'm tolerably happy with that, despite not getting to the point till a little late on in my essay.
Looking at the individual skier skimottaret linked to, I'd say they sometimes initiate the turn with a rotation rather than carving it, particularly when turning to their left and on the steeper section, and looking at the way a couple of the turns develops after the fall line I think they've got a more pressure on the inside ski than they should - the outside ski seems to be coming along for the ride but isn't dominant.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Or just more edge angle? Tipping his skis a bit more by getting his hips into the turn a bit more, perhaps? |
The video suggests that his lateral balance has room for improvement so I suspect that he'll struggle to add more edge angle at this stage.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wow tough crowd. The guy falls over and we've already established he's on the verge of a nervous breakdown and probably has bedroom performance issues.
I am never submitting anything for MA.
I get the outer leg extension point but I struggle to see it clearly in a dynamic skier. Obviously red guy it's clear his outer leg doesn't really extend from a bend but the others look less clear cut & I'd bet the pivoty guys are pretty good in the bumps Maybe I need to actually go skiing to see what it feels like to pedal - is it vastly different to stand on the outside ski and point the inside knee to get more dynamic?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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gatecrasher, He just looks like he doesn't like gates. A big dose of MTFU would help for starters. Speaking as someone whose track record with any gates is as follows:
Gate 1 Hell yeah I'm Bode Miller
Gate 2 Oops a bit late
Gate 3 ...usually horizontal
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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fatbob, I totally agree he just doesn't look overly keen ...and can empathise with you! 
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So what's the difference in the type of 'task' between the first and second video's ? (BASI shorts \ longs v Race gates)
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You know it makes sense.
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Skier 2 for reference has excellent lateral balance, the pitch is moderate at the top stiff blue / easy red and snow was very grippy with only some minor ruts, there were a couple of monster crashes though from talented skiers. It was his first week in GS gates so dont focus on tactics such as line but more on what the skis are doing. He is very competitive and not a pussy but wasnt happy getting beat... he was fully MTFU 'd.
I put up a video of someone in gates as there isnt a set "task" as per the BASI longs and shorts, the "task" here was to be the fastest and not kill yourself. But what flaws in his skiing are evident in the gates run?
kieranm, Great thread and it is a fab idea to do some practice MA to train your "eye". I dont want to sound like a know it all as I am still learning myself but the senior guys who have trained me always focused on simplicity. When doing MA of a group see if you can spot A single key fundamental issue with the group presented, dont over complicate it or focus on secondary effects/issues. Yes some lack pole plants but is that a root cause of all evil ? would you see that group and then work on pole planting , no... yes a couple lack separation but that isn't the key issue. You are getting at it with the lack of extension but in my view it isnt a lack of extension it is too much flexion at the knee with the skiers sitting down very quickly and riding out the turn on the heels... The girl in the bandana doesnt nor does the guy with the blue red waist.. they stand on the ski well have their hips over the feet and manage the pressure build up, the rest in an effort to find big angles get aft way to quick and get stuck low (and one gets unstuck ) Watch the guy who fell over and see if you can pick out why he went over, he didnt hit a marmott.
watch it again and focus this time on what their knees are doing and how that impacts how the skis are working.. (is the ski engaged early are the tips flapping around, is there is a lot of spray kicking off the heels, are the skis bending in the turn, etc )
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimottaret, The difference in task type might be relevant when deciding how best to help the client. The first video is a essentially a judged task while the second in the gates is measured.
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Poster: A snowHead
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skimottaret: Thanks for your input - it's very welcome. I'll take another look.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, Thanks for this - I appreciate the simplicity of the message as whenever I've looked at this sort of thing on Epic they've got so technoweenie within a page or so that it's enough to make anyone give up skiing.
Is "riding tail" always wrong? Or can it sometimes be a way of getting fun out of a prosaic slope? Clearly in a course situation you need to be demoing what the trainer wants to see. Every time I see one of these threads I always think I want to video myself for wholly private review. It's often possible to "feel" when something isn't right but ingrained habits that don't practically impede much but clearly manifest in a huge performance gap against the best are the hardest. That said the day I set myself a SMART goal for my skiing is the day I return full time to a slowboard.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob, not at all Bode miller made a career out of riding the tails to go fast but he had the balance coordination and agility to pull it off.... the tape of the group preparing for L3 exams (which is what the filmed task was about) the skiers should be able to balance and pressure the front middle and tail of the ski throughout the turns carving fairly cleanly.
Do you have any video of yourself ? Why not stick it up for general review if you are interested in getting feedback, be good to get a "real world" skier in this thread who could comment on what the intention of the skiing was in the video the conditions etc...? Why a wholly private review? you could always delete the video after the comments dried up... I stuck myself and my daughter up for MA a while back and got some good feedback...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| skimottaret, Thanks for this - I appreciate the simplicity of the message as whenever I've looked at this sort of thing on Epic they've got so technoweenie within a page or so that it's enough to make anyone give up skiing. |
That's why I don't bother much with EPIC, for technique or kit discussions (or the really convoluted 'inner tip lead' type discussions here). When I contribute stuff here I ask myself "would I say to a client what I've just typed here". I wouldn't list half a dozen weaknesses when I'm teaching, so I try to pick on one or maybe two things that will make the most significant difference when doing MA on the forum, even though there might be another four or five things that could be addressed (in reality often addressing the one or two major issues will fix the other things automatically).
| Quote: |
| Is "riding tail" always wrong? |
I'm sure it's not in wrong for every single skiing situation you can think of. My stock answer when I get questioned about 'rights' and 'wrongs' of skiing is usually "it depends". I can think of situations when skilfully riding with an aft balance point would be the right tactic, so a well rounded skier will be able to do that. But the same skier should also be able to ski fore/aft balanced on the sweet spot, and to be able to move their balance point from fore to aft and back again in a single turn if they want to. It's about developing a wide range of skills, then having fun using them wherever you want to ski on the mountain.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Re: the level 3ers,
One of the visualizations that I created for myself while doing long turns on my L2 is to picture a large blade resting on my arms - like on the front of a snow plough (a real one, that is, not a skier's snow plough). And then I imagine using this to scrape the snow from the edge of the course back into the middle. This creates a strong stance with more pressure on the outside and, in particular, helps me push my knees forwards (as if trying to force more snow out of the way). I've probably not explained that very well but the picture seems to work for me.
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fatbob - I'd say the problem is not that they are on the tails at any point - but the fact that they do not move those hips forward...
Balance means being able to shift it around to balance where you want/need - not being in a certain position... Those folks mostly seemed to have balance issues - hips with little movement... I'd have thought to see more... They do not seem to engage the tips of skis to enter the turn...
Yellow pants seems to have a similar problem plus lateral balance issues I think (just a quick look and hard to see - the video seems to be blurry - maybe shot in interlaced mode I think) . He also seems to struggle with the line - so he is going "carp there is a gate here I'd better turn" push skis around.... - "carp another gate" - push skis around... rather than placing those turn apexes at the gate(or above it) as he had (hopefully)planned...
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rob@rar, based on your idea of only being allowed one or two things to think about...
... probably would be to have the guy in video 2 learn to play around with angulation a bit more especially in the slower turns and end of turns combined with the individual flex and extension of the legs talked about earlier.
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Interesting everyone thinks skier 2 has lateral balance issues... Not at all, for reference he is an ex competitive trampolinist and has excellent lateral balance (which i mentioned at the start) his one ski skiing is very good.
But he does fall into the turn, why is that? two reasons immediately spring to mind for me and lack of balance isnt one of them.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, This reminds me of a previous O&A session 
When I had a quick look the other day I noted that the skier appeared to topple in to the turn (2nd gate) and there's some arm\hand movement to regain balance. Actually looking at it again it's not so obvious. On the early L/H (3 & 5) gates the skier has a bit arm movement that suggests they are unbalanced with the o/s hand dropping back. This isn't evident on the R/H gates.
It could be that they are being knocked about by ruts and\or the sideways skid is making life difficult, plus of just being in gates has a psychological impact of it's own because it's new.
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I'd need to look at the video again to comment on the skier in question but falling into the turn suggests to me that either:
1) they're not carrying enough speed for the exercise that they've been asked to do (e.g. "move your hips in to the turn" but over-doing it or banking and so centre of mass not balanced by centripetal forces);
or
2) The skis aren't gripping the snow and are skidding out from under them. This could be for any number of reasons (too much speed, insufficient edging, too much rotation) etc and I'd need to review the video.
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