 Poster: A snowHead
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i think the main problem is "change" people just don't like it, they want the same sessions week in week out, they want to do the same things evry time..... like the birdseye advert recently with the polar bear...tuesday pasta, last tuesday "pasta, tuesday before pasta!
the kids have got into a routine, the coaches do it because they are in a routine, the parents expect it because it is the routine, somewhere we have to break the cycle
we are currently working with one brand on their new race structure for sponsorships, they have really thought it out and have tiers that the athletes can aim towards, as the athlete gets towards the upper tiers then the are assigned a mentor who will work with them on training and personal development, giving them advice on nutrition and cross training, the kids that get on this program will have to adapt to change but the rewards will be greater......
so is it down to creating more rounded athletes that are better athletes with the risk of loosing a few along the way who don't want change or having a pile of pole happy semi cross blocking 10 year olds who think they can ski because they can get down a 15 gate course... for me it is more about quality than quantity but time will tell which way this goes..
how about a national fitness test at the start, middle and end of the summer race season, don't do the test and you can't race, carried out by the club coaches at least then coaches, parents and athletes could see if little jonny was actually getting any benefit from the training and other activities he may be doing or whether he was sat on his butt playing x box games all week (mind you i wonder how many of the parents would suddenly book holidays to coincide with those sessions or just be late home form work and unable to get the kids there... yup they don't want change)
now the balancing the books thing about ski race entries, yup that has to happen, but how about some joined up thinking, there are simply far too many races on the calendar, last weekend there were 3 separate events running on sunday at 3 locations around the country, no wonder some of the races don't have as many entries as they would like..... i heard a suggestion on sunday that i think would be great...how about a limited number of club nationals, maybe 4 snow 4 plastic, and the clubs have to tender to get them.... a little healthy competition, what are you offering to get this race??? if not a tender, how about clubs joining forces and hosting joint races and splitting the costs/profits it may take a couple of years to work out in terms of the race being held at venue X one year and venue Y the next but certainly workable...double the entry????
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Not a parent or a race coach, so I don't have a duck in this particular hunt. But as an observation, when I see young kids skiing full size gates it seems to me that they ski worse than when they use soft stubbies.
Case in point being an independent race camp that has been skiing at Hemel for the last few weeks. They seem to be doing good stuff, but when the kids (all under 11s I'd guess) ski in full size gates most of them take a wide line to avoid the gate, and the few that get a bit closer still aren't close enough to require a cross-block so they twist their upper body to punch the gate as they go past it. When they use stubbies they have a much faster line. It's an obvious difference. From first principles I can't see why anyone, coach, parent or kid, would want to ski knowingly worse?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, mediocrity seems to be the norm that people want, they see world cup skiing on eurosport and the aspire to be just like their heroes, so they need full size gates
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CEM, I don't underestimate the challenge that SSE, the clubs and individual coaches have in 'selling' this proposal, but to me it seems so obvious.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Okanagan, you make a reasonable point about the kids wanting to mix it up with the older ones in Duals and team SL events but again I would say that those races should be run with stubbies so they can be inclusive for all.
As an experiment you should get your top racers to run a course with full gates and then the same course with stubbies you may be surprised at the results.... YOu may also be surprised when the smaller more technical skiers start to beat the older ones in stubby courses..
Also reasonable about introducing change gradually which is what the proposals do. I dont see where they are trying to "introduce things instantly at the top end"
Blocking gates is one (dare I say it) minor tactic in ski racing, it is not the be all end all to success in later years. Stronger bigger kids win in the early years if they have the strength to block effectively and it is rare to find U12's who do it well and not at the expense of good line and speed.
I really struggle with comments like where will all the racers go if we dont set full poles... A common theme among parents is almost that the coaches on the hill are holding their children back and want to suck the fun out of training by not letting them train with full gates like the older ones do, constant barrage of requests to move up age groups when the children are obviously not ready, Jonny really responds better to being with older kids in other sports..etc which i find very puzzling.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| CEM, I don't underestimate the challenge that SSE, the clubs and individual coaches have in 'selling' this proposal, but to me it seems so obvious. |
yup common sense not quite so common as it should be
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| Quote: |
I really struggle with comments like where will all the racers go if we dont set full poles... A common theme among parents is almost that the coaches on the hill are holding their children back and want to suck the fun out of training by not letting them train with full gates like the older ones do, constant barrage of requests to move up age groups when the children are obviously not ready, Jonny really responds better to being with older kids in other sports..etc which i find very puzzling.
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no jonny should be skiing full size gates because that's what i expect to see!
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rob@rar, the little ones see the big kids doing it and like most things in life want to copy, from a family of reaching cross blockers, it's easy to see the difference of little ones going through stubbies vs full gates even when they are told to (not) hit them, but the kids love hitting them, maybe CEM, is right it would better to have clubs for those who are not looking any further than a fun hobby they enjoy doing with new friends & a separate club for kids who aspire to become world cuppers.
From the mouth of a reaching cross blocking 12 yr old,
"they can't do that! Surely we can protest!?" 
"Most" of these kids do this purely for fun let's not forget!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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gatecrasher, but is it not fun to go faster?, and it seems to have been proven that the kids ski faster in the stubbies courses
problem is that it is what they are used to, take them back to never having done any gate training and this wouldn't be an issue, they have been given the best toy in the world and it is being taken away and replaced by what they consider an inferior toy....better in the long term but explain that to a 12 yo
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maybe hitting gates is like a junior anger management thing 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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gatecrasher, I appreciate all of that, but what about the kids who want to (and are capable of) becoming good ski racers. Should the coaching system knowingly compromise their development so that kids can have fun bashing gates? As I said, I have no personal interest in this debate, just commenting on what I see. I also know, from personal experience and from teaching experience, that there are plenty of ways of having fun while developing your technique so gate-bashing isn't the be-all and end-all (as I'm sure you know, so not trying to teach granny, etc).
Maybe it will be good for younger kids to aspire to ski full size gates because that's what they see the older kids doing...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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gatecrasher, so the fun hobby skiers should be hitting full gates like they do on TV but the serious racers with potential should not 
I take your point that the young uns want to emulate the older kids but we have to get out of the idea that racing in the UK is all about hitting 14 gates on the way down a short course...
Just about EVERY single older high level racer I have talked to wishes that they hadnt entered as many races as much when they were U12, the fond memories are of free skiing after training, the podium at a big event are the memories they hold dear, not that they won 9 weekend races in a row on the plastic circuit.
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You know it makes sense.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| the fond memories are of free skiing |
Plenty of opportunity for that on real mountains, but rather less opportunity on the limited artificial slopes of england and wales. You have to make the best use of the facilities to which you have access.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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[quote="CEM"]
how about a national fitness test at the start, middle and end of the summer race season, don't do the test and you can't race, quote]
*Sorry to thread jack* - but very good idea made by CEM - GB Team do it, this should also be carried out at club level.
Again parents/racers still need educating on the importance of dryland training/athletes diet etc.
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Poster: A snowHead
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"so the fun hobby skiers should be hitting full gates like
they do on TV but the serious racers with potential should not "
skimottaret, I was trolling a little there....but there are probably only a handful of kids that join a race club solely with the idea of becoming a world class racer, some just do it for fun and nothing more and if they find it fun to hit gates then thats the fun element fulfilled (to them) I'm not against the changes
Just pointing out why most of our kids do this sport, just for fun.
Edit rob@rar, not at all saying hold the serious ones back, but in practice coaches generally know the ones in their group who take things more seriously and adapt teaching to suit.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 18-05-12 12:02; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Also reasonable about introducing change gradually which is what the proposals do. I dont see where they are trying to "introduce things instantly at the top end" |
As part of the proposals we have "A strong recommendation that the plastic season should follow the snow. At present, it starts long before kids have moved into the next FIS age category, even before the end of the snow season." Which is true - it is hard to expain why an 11 year old should be in U14 rather than U12! But say to correct the anomoly for next years artificial season everyone stays in the same age groups they've been in for the winter. Which is the same groups they've been in for this summer. Which is actually the same groups, albeit renamed, that they were in last summer/winter because we've only just had an age group change. (Another possible issue here - changing the age groups again next summer would mean some will have had 3 consecutive years at the top of an age group while others - who might be rather less happy about it - would get 3 consecutive years at the younger end of a group.)
So this comes in next summer and next year's U14's will be those born in 1999 and 2000. The 1999's could have been racing for 7 years if they started off as minis in 2006 (and quite probably at local level before that). It's a *much* harder sell to tell those to abandon what they have known for so long than it is for the younger ones where (even if you ignore all the other reasons) you've got a lot more chance of persuading them - and their parents - that hitting the gates is actually going to slow them down because they're physically smaller. Surely far easier to get acceptance if you bring it in at U10's, with a published schedule for when it will be introduced at U12 - maybe just one year further on so that those moving up are already used to it. And then roll it up to U14 the year after as some of the racers already used to it at U12 move up to that group.
| CEM wrote: |
| how about a national fitness test at the start, middle and end of the summer race season, don't do the test and you can't race, carried out by the club coaches at least then coaches, parents and athletes could see if little jonny was actually getting any benefit from the training and other activities he may be doing or whether he was sat on his butt playing x box games all week (mind you i wonder how many of the parents would suddenly book holidays to coincide with those sessions or just be late home form work and unable to get the kids there... yup they don't want change) |
Actually I don't see any sign of parents or players being reluctant to participate in the regular plyometric tests which my son has taken part in as part of a football coaching program - and that's without having to threaten no test, no game.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Looking at this from a different angle , what about space on the slopes to train. When abroad we hire a training lane that all the kids use , will the cost of training need to go up as we need to have two lanes and that is assuming there is space , especially when many Snow Based Training Orgs share the same training slope at camps , or races.
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Scot_Ski, wouldn't do the older kids any harm to ski stubbies for a bit, and when the course is reset for the full gates then the youngsters can go off and free ski using the terrain with a coach just like they do in other nations
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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personally I think its good for the sport, currently we see some 'fast' plastic racers not making the transition to the snow so well, and a lot of this is down to staminia over the longer courses. I could draw a direct comparison with a fellow posters son but that wouldnt be fair. Without the technique they wont carry the speed forward as they get older.
Having said that, due to cost as well as ability, a lot of younger skiers do training and races for the 'fun' element, not to become the next 'bode' or 'lyndsey' the chance to mix with others their own age, and a balance needs to be drawn where their interest is held, as that too will have a knock on effect as to the financial viability of some 'artificial ' slopes. I know our local slope does a lot of its summer income from our three weekly training sessions.
Last night we ran stubbies and poles, and the kids prefer the poles!!!! but then theyve been brought up on them 
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RobW, agreed, that is why we prioritise tech skills development as opposed to running 14 gates in 14 seconds over and over.... I use the driving range analogy to get better at golfing, use the domes and dry slopes for what they are... training pitches not a place to run endless short races...
Edge2Win, I know you are a firm advocate of dry land training but would you be happy to drive your son to a dome for training and find that once every say 8 - 12 weeks the session would be off snow or doing fitness tests. I am thinking about pushing harder for this for the top group of U12's (at hemel we have three streams of trainees composed of U8/10 and 12's) some of the parents i talked too werent too keen or felt it outside the remit of the club...
gatecrasher, From my experience the U12's the fun bit is about competition and hooning with their mates... full gates is "fun" ONLY because it is what the big kids do...
Okanagan, the age change has caused great consternation with the parents as Jonny "hasn't been moved up a group" and is "stuck" in the same group for another year, the kids could care less (as long as noone else in the group has been moved "up") and they would do very similar things in training in the next age band anyways.. I always thought it bonkers that British racing had to be different from FIS groups and i guess one year to readjust is going to be slightly painful for some to come to terms with.
phasing the changes in by age bracket may ease the transition for young athletes, an idea you should forward to Paddy or Jenny... but as you say the real issue is education, if that gets done correctly then the transition is smooth.
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Scot_Ski, It shouldn't require more space. If you are training alongside other groups that are also trying to mix ages why not work together and divide all the kids up into appropriate age groups.
There are various ways to improve the current situation, one example is the Scottish FAST Camp idea.
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^^^^^ that link is a perfect example of joined up thinking, it could happen south of the border as well
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rjs, CEM, We were in TIgnes sharing a hotel with the FAST team last October and they ran a great camp and had enough numbers to do all the right things, fitness equipment prep ability /age streaming and multiple course types....
The pre breakfast warm up run was a particular favourite of the athletes 
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skimottaret, My son was at that FAST camp last October and based on what he is like getting up for school at 7am , I can just imagine the mood he was in at 06:30 to go running.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Scot_Ski, Ronnie certainly kept them in order. It was quite funny to see them have to do penalties (push-ups, sprints, etc) if they were caught with contraband (such as chocolate).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Okanagan, the age change has caused great consternation with the parents as Jonny "hasn't been moved up a group" and is "stuck" in the same group for another year, the kids could care less (as long as noone else in the group has been moved "up") and they would do very similar things in training in the next age band anyways.. I always thought it bonkers that British racing had to be different from FIS groups and i guess one year to readjust is going to be slightly painful for some to come to terms with. |
Changing age groups / not moving up isn't in itself a problem - certainly not as far as training goes (our sessions are split by the level of racing they are doing rather than rigidly differentiated by age anyway) - but I'd have a fair bit of sympathy for the kids who might have been getting podium places in the years when they're at the top of their age group, but don't in the years when they're the younger end of the group. If the age changes happen next year the 1997, 1999 and 2001 kids for example will have had 3 years of being the oldest, while the 2002, 2000 and 1998 kids will have 3 years in a row of having to compete against those a year older.
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Just a thought...how about we (all) do away with full gates altogether, period! We'll all ski a better faster line and all work on a level playing field, the only changes we'll need to worry about is the increased turn radius rules that will be put into force to slow us all back down! 
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You know it makes sense.
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gatecrasher, I was thinking along similar lines: Make all CNs and below stubbies only for everyone. Keep the big poles for GBR/grandprix (or whatever next year's name is) and championships. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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My experience is that it isn't a big deal to set multiple courses during a race day. The change to single gate makes it easier to set two courses side by side, you run a group on one then reset it while you run a group on the second.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Okanagan,
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if they're not allowed to compete they'll simply go elsewhere
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There is nothing in the documents to say that anyone will not be allowed to compete.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Okanagan,
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if they're not allowed to compete they'll simply go elsewhere
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There is nothing in the documents to say that anyone will not be allowed to compete.
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if it also meant the demise of the chance to race head to head against the older racers.
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There is also nothing in the above that says that there will be no head to head races. These can be done through stubbies, or even with panelled gates.
This is all a matter of educating parents to the objectives and sound theory behind the proposals. Would you want the sport to disappear up it's own backside because we get less and less funding due to never achieving better results on the world stage.
I've been involved with coaching racers for well over 20 years and the most successful have been those whose parents listened and went with programmes early on that were not full of gate training. I remember one trainee who did many repetitive drills on a dry slope throughout the summer without touching gates from April to August, then went on to win the female overall category in every national dry slope championship.
It's great if a child has talent but that talent needs directing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Philbo wrote: |
Would you want the sport to disappear up it's own backside because we get less and less funding due to never achieving better results on the world stage. |
is it possible to get any less funding than the sport currently gets?
right now we are at the bottom of the pile in terms of funding, time to wake up and change things as Philbo has said
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Philbo wrote: |
| Quote: |
| if they're not allowed to compete they'll simply go elsewhere |
There is nothing in the documents to say that anyone will not be allowed to compete. |
Read it again and you'll see that you've taken that phrase (about a hypothetical extreme example relating to football) totally out of context. Nowhere was it suggested that anyone would not be allowed to compete - it was just an example to demonstrate that competition is a powerful motivator for kids so
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| going too far down the "come and train every week and you can race four times a year" route |
would be a risky strategy.
| Philbo wrote: |
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| if it also meant the demise of the chance to race head to head against the older racers. |
There is also nothing in the above that says that there will be no head to head races. These can be done through stubbies, or even with panelled gates. |
But there's also nothing in it that explicitly says that there will (or won't) be *all age* head to head races, or in what format they would be. If it means no U14's and below in interclub/interregional events - or seperate events for U14 and over 14 then why not say so? If it means no mixed age head to head races, or older racers to also race head to heads in a changed format, then say so (as it stands it reads very much as if you're over 14 you're unaffected). It's the lack of clarity which is causing everyone to try to interpret it and guess what it might actually mean in practice.
I don't see anybody here saying they disagree with the proposals in principle - the debate has all been how to implement it without ruffling too many feathers along the way, and what all the other implications are which the proposal as it stands doesn't address/glosses over.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| RobW wrote: |
| gatecrasher, I was thinking along similar lines: Make all CNs and below stubbies only for everyone. Keep the big poles for GBR/grandprix (or whatever next year's name is) and championships. :skele: |
With a one-off (but rescindable!) coach signoff to say that racer is at the technical standard to be ready to race with full gates? Now here'sthe controversial bit - apply this whatever the age of the racer.... novice older racers being just as susceptible to the traps of blocking badly as novice younger ones!
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| Okanagan wrote: |
With a one-off (but rescindable!) coach signoff to say that racer is at the technical standard to be ready to race with full gates?
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No, I don't like coach signoffs, they tend to be a bit easy to get (remember the signoff for minis doing the all-england in 2010? Many of them hardly know the way down a course let alone were of a "sufficient standard"). Rather must have a proper and enforced cut-off, e.g. under 300 seed points
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| Now here' sthe controversial bit - apply this whatever the age of the racer.... novice older racers being just as susceptible to the traps of blocking badly as novice younger ones! |
That is exactly what I meant by stubbies for everyone.
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i am not sure this is all about bad technique and attempted cross blocking (although it is probably a big factor) it is about changing the way things are done to get a more rounded program rather than just skiing gates, age really has not a lot to do with this, but you have to start somewhere to try and nurture the talent from an early age, lets be honest if they athlete is 16-17 years old and not performing at the top level then it is not likely that they are going to make it big in the sport.
sure feathers are going to get ruffled but that is just life, the people putting these proposals forward are not level 1 coaches they are experienced in this, they have thought long and hard about what they are proposing
as Okanagan has said you could just stop crap racers from skiing gates but that is not the point.
the sport needs funding, in this country to get funding you need to get results, to get results we need to change the way the athletes are training. simples!
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| RobW wrote: |
| Okanagan wrote: |
| With a one-off (but rescindable!) coach signoff to say that racer is at the technical standard to be ready to race with full gates? |
No, I don't like coach signoffs, they tend to be a bit easy to get (remember the signoff for minis doing the all-england in 2010? Many of them hardly know the way down a course let alone were of a "sufficient standard"). |
So a signoff by a different coach who is accredited to do signoffs (and with some comeback if they're judged to be too lenient)?
| RobW wrote: |
| Rather must have a proper and enforced cut-off, e.g. under 300 seed points |
It would need to be much lower than 300 to have any useful effect. Already this year amongst the U12 boys 8 have posted at least one sub 200 points result outdoors, and 9 indoors (interesting that there's not much overlap - only 2 of those have managed it on both surfaces).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Make all CNs and below stubbies only for everyone. Keep the big poles for GBR/grandprix (or whatever next year's name is) and championships
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Not a bad idea.
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But there's also nothing in it that explicitly says that there will (or won't) be *all age* head to head races, or in what format they would be. If it means no U14's and below in interclub/interregional events - or seperate events for U14 and over 14 then why not say so? If it means no mixed age head to head races, or older racers to also race head to heads in a changed format, then say so (as it stands it reads very much as if you're over 14 you're unaffected). It's the lack of clarity which is causing everyone to try to interpret it and guess what it might actually mean in practice.
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Is it clear that these are just PROPOSALS, hence the lack of tight detail. They went to the TD forum last weekend and are now going to be consulted on by home nations etc. If the info and presentations from Paddy Mortimer are anything to go by, there is a drive to have more head to head events. Athletes enjoy these and they are great for spectators too.
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currently we see some 'fast' plastic racers not making the transition to the snow so well, and a lot of this is down to staminia over the longer courses. I could draw a direct comparison with a fellow posters son but that wouldnt be fair. Without the technique they wont carry the speed forward as they get older.
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Unfortunately, I see many racers who train a specific way to be fast on plastic, developing a high skill level for this but they really cannot repeat high level performance on indoor snow or the mountains when the surface ceases to be 'uniform'. I would like to see ALL racers trained to be great skiers so that they can repeat performances across all surfaces that they race on. Dave Ryding is a good example of such a racer. Bearing in mind Dave never made any national team as a child!
There should be no issue with coaches working with athletes along a pathway. Trainees can step off at any level on that pathway, be it local race, national race or any level up to world cup. The training pathway should be the same for all at the lower level. This should not reduce the fun element for those not willing or able (for many reasons) to go beyond certain levels. In fact it should increase this element as they will all become better skiers and be able to enjoy the mountains when they go out there.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Edge2Win, I know you are a firm advocate of dry land training but would you be happy to drive your son to a dome for training and find that once every say 8 - 12 weeks the session would be off snow or doing fitness tests. I am thinking about pushing harder for this for the top group of U12's (at hemel we have three streams of trainees composed of U8/10 and 12's) some of the parents i talked too werent too keen or felt it outside the remit of the club... |
Yes. Once every 2 months for a club fitness test to see that he is on the right track I don't think that would be a problem. Maybe split the session in two - half the athletes doing fitness tests for an hour whilst the other half are inside going over race servicing Qs or issues they are not sure/happy with on the servicing side and then 2nd hour flip it over.
Training sessions over a 2 month period - twice a week = 16 x 2hr stints (32hrs) minus a 2hr session for fitness tests/servicing Qs once every 2 months.
Also I think its a good on other points as well - club fitness tests > gets the coaches/racers togeather off the slope speaking about what dryland training they are doing and what they are working on, what kind of cross training they are doing etc etc. And for servicing gets the racers togeather around a service table just talking over issues, new stuff - whats good, whats not with again a coach/service guy at hand to answer Qs on an informal non classroom basis.
Again above is not a thread jack to get away from the original posting but as we are talking about changes we need to make the younger guys in the sport know that its not about going to the fridge twice a week training for two hours and then watching tv or plyaing on the playstation for the rest of the week. These guys if they choose to be athletes need to know that that a dryland training programme is important / cross training (other sports) and eating the correct food/fluids before training/during training and post training. Post alpine season is important and a key 5/6 months out to get a dryland programme in place and get fit and racer ready for the first training stint of the winter season.
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