 Poster: A snowHead
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DM indulging in some pretty wild speculation there. How unlike them to stir up the "Killer Craze" hornets nest... 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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+1. Guilt by association, it seems. Appalling, insensitive, journalism.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Just when you think the Daily Mail can't lower its standards any further.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Lord knows I'm no far of the Daily Mail, but how is its speculation as to the cause of the accident any different to many of the posts on this thread?
Despicable indeed.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Given the number of collisions resulting in serious injury and death with snow canons and pylons I think resorts will have to rethink the safety aspects in the future. Certainly building a snow wall at the base of the canons at the start of the season might be one idea.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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terrible news, such a bizarre accident
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Some of the comments on that newest DM article ^^ are just terrible.
One of my friends crashed into a snow cannon during the 2011 season. Thankfully he was left with a broken wrist and not anything more serious.
Even if you're only doing a moderate speed, it doesn't take much to lose an edge and fall/crash, particularly at the end of the day when you're tired.
Poor guy, just awful.
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Dr John, There has been speculation on this thread - some of it not justified, most uncorroborated, and none of it i'd agree with. But a national newspaper publishing an article with the headline "Was Briton, 22, killed in ski accident after crashing into snow cannon trying to break 100kph speed mark on iPhone app?" and making direct reference to SkiTracks as a Craze which could have been a contributary cause of this sad accident is beyond whats been mooted here.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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re Daily Mail 'report'. That really is a piece of writing beyond contempt.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 22-03-12 14:36; edited 1 time in total
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Richard_Sideways, that is bloody ridiculous!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Well I am going to take a different view here.
I have just been into my local library to find the DM article. Its tucked away on page 32 and takes up less than half a page which I felt makes it seem less sensational than when you follow the link on this thread, which tends to give the impression that it is a front page special. When I read it in the context of the paper itself it seemed to me anyway to be a bit more balanced.
Its easy to criticise the tabloids but there are times when they come up with valid points and if people are using phone apps in the manner suggested, they have highlighted an important issue which may save lives in the future.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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^ But they have no evidence he was using the app at all! It's making all sorts of unfounded suggestions. How would his family feel reading that?
Disgusting rag of a newspaper, not even fit to use as toilet paper.
I hate the DM with a passion.
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You know it makes sense.
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Dr John, at least the Telegraph handles it in a much more sensitive manner - as an aside in the article with suitable caveats, and not in the headline.
The Daily Mail is a nasty, cynical and hateful newspaper.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
if people are using phone apps in the manner suggested, they have highlighted an important issue which may save lives in the future.
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 there are plentyof threads on SHs about this kind of willy waving. there's no "if" about it. I think it's idiotic, but boys will be boys.
However, the causal relationship which the DM is clearly hinting at, in this particular instance? Just insensitive guesswork.
Like saying "Mr X lost his life in a car crash yesterday; lots of people are driving round over the drink/driving limit".
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Poster: A snowHead
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can you imagine getting badgered by the DM, the day after your son is killed, wanting to know if he was likely to have been trying to do 100 kph using a phone/gps etc.
Just the kind of sympathy you'd need, eh?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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pam w, I agree, unfortunately they may just possibly be right, reps in resorts often get together to have fun, go skiing, go for drinks or whatever, it would not surprise me one bit to discover that there was a craze going around for the reps to try and beat the 100kph mark (it's not that difficult for a competent skier to manage) however there was no indication in earlier reports that this was the case here, the young man seem to have simply lost control whilst skiing with friends and for the DM and others to suggest it may have been a contributing factor without being able to show any evidence seems rather insensitive
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| davidof wrote: |
| Given the number of collisions resulting in serious injury and death with snow canons and pylons I think resorts will have to rethink the safety aspects in the future. Certainly building a snow wall at the base of the canons at the start of the season might be one idea. |
Nothing is going to happen. If 20+ were killed a year then something may happen.
The introduction of slow zones (like in the US) should of happened years ago with stiff punishment i.e lift pass taken away for a day or two, or cancelled.
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stanton, for once I think I agree with you, slow zones in certain areas would certainly make home runs easier and safer for beginners, nothing annoys me more than seeing skiers (or boarders) weaving in and out of ski classes at the end of the day especially when it causes inexperienced kids to fall, making sure such runs are safe for all would be a good idea.
Most European resorts seem to pad their pylons and other piste equipment pretty well, I don't think there's much chance of improving that. Instead we should be concentrating on ensuring people are in control on the slopes
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| D G Orf wrote: |
Nothing wrong with the padding there but if the chap hit at speed there's not much that can be done.
As far as weather or not the young man was out of control or skiing beyond his ability, we all know it's possible, the number of accidents and near misses that occur due to just this sort of thing is amazing really, in fact I'm often surprised that more don't occur, I'm sure that in part this occurs to modern skiing, when I learn't to ski 30+ years ago it was common for everyone to go to ski school, skiing both mornings and afternoons with an instructor, you'd learn an awful lot of useful skills and have a really good time doing so, now once people have learnt how to turn and stop (and some not even that) they think they are experts capable of any piste in any condition and no longer need instruction, As far as Wengen goes, what this means is that many runs have been widened and smoothed out over the years, runs that were once narrow steep blacks with decent sized moguls are now motorway width slopes, Even Oh God can be pisted (even if the piste machine does need a winch to do so), in effect the locals decided that skiers were no longer as good as they used to be so they made the runs easier, sadly they are also less fun  I'm not sure they are any safer though, people still go down them far to fast for their own skills and without concern about anyone else on the same piste. I'd like to see more resorts enforcing the skiers code and banning people who can't keep control going down the slopes |
I tend to agree for the most part in my experience.
| D G Orf wrote: |
| The point I was really trying to make is that snow sports are dangerous and many people have an inflated opinion of their own skills, I've been skiing for almost 40 years, I have over 100 weeks experience, but I would not regard myself as an expert skier, ... |
Yep agreed again... I have done 18 seasons teaching and somewhere in the region of 400 weeks of skiing / snowboarding over the years and I do not consider myself an expert... im still learning loads all the time.
ANYWAY I SPOKE TO MY PISTEUR FRIEND WHO WITNESSED IT ON TUESDAY... he informed me that the guy was tucking (very badly... no ankle flex therefore had all his weight on the back of this skis - minimal control at the best of time) as if trying to gather massive speed. Even if he was not trying to beat the gun it certainly sounds like he was pushing the limits... I think it was the 'tuck' that got my friends attention before it all went pete tong! Incidentally when they talk about it being an 'intermediate' (hate that word) slope this is the same pitch they used for the Ladies DH / SG etc in the 2009 World Champs and you can get a lot of speed down there.
Anyway I have also seen / heard plenty of people talking up the speeds they are getting on the slopes with GPS style devises in the last couple of years or so on the pistes and around the resort.... so maybe it is a problem! Not for me to comment really.
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Steve Angus, Yeah the Ladies Downhill course above Grindelwald is only rated as a Red but you can still get a pretty good speed up going down it, as for the speed thing, the Lauberhorn race track has had a speed gun set up at the bottom of the (from memory) Hannegg Schuss which lets people see their speed as they go through, a good location as the course at that particular point is netted off and pretty safe to take at speed though you do need to watch for people joining from the left at the bottom, I've only done it once (checking the speed) when I went through at just a shade under 100kph without any effort on my part, but that was the first year they put in the speed gun, since then I've been through but not even looked to see what speed I was travelling, some people however seem very determined to go through as fast as possible, often with very little control, perhaps it's just that I feel no need to travel at high speed on skis, I can do so if I want to, but generally I prefer to just cruise around and enjoy the views 
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| Steve Angus wrote: |
ANYWAY I SPOKE TO MY PISTEUR FRIEND WHO WITNESSED IT ON TUESDAY... he informed me that the guy was tucking (very badly... no ankle flex therefore had all his weight on the back of this skis - minimal control at the best of time) as if trying to gather massive speed. Even if he was not trying to beat the gun it certainly sounds like he was pushing the limits... I think it was the 'tuck' that got my friends attention before it all went pete tong! Incidentally when they talk about it being an 'intermediate' (hate that word) slope this is the same pitch they used for the Ladies DH / SG etc in the 2009 World Champs and you can get a lot of speed down there.
Anyway I have also seen / heard plenty of people talking up the speeds they are getting on the slopes with GPS style devises in the last couple of years or so on the pistes and around the resort.... so maybe it is a problem! Not for me to comment really. |
Very informative primary evidence, thanks for sharing.
Like you I too have heard people bigging up their skiing via these annoying apps. Only stupid people equate speed with ability in the context of recreational skiing. This is a stupid concept that can lead to death.
The run in question is a steep red and anyone tucking on it is being reckless.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| The run in question is a steep red and anyone tucking on it is being reckless. |
Yup, it always seems steep to me as it is concave and a little exposed, especially the top section, also always has lots of people on it!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Dr John, as bobmcstuff says, the Telegraph worded it rather more sensitively.
If it's the red I think it is, I went down it last year thinking it would be a black in many resorts. Maybe it's another piste though.
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PJSki, indeed (re primary evidence) some sense now being talked - and note that there's some nonsense above eg 'having to rethink whether snow cannons are sited on pistes etc' - I don't think that this has to be rethought at all. A senior researcher in road safety once said that the best way of changing driver behaviour '...is to have a polished six inch stainless steel spike sticking out of the steering wheel...'. Of course pistes can be made 'safe' by removing cannon, rocks, trees, (stationary people?), poles, lift installation, restaurants, etc but this is simply not the point. Skiing is inherently dangerous, and all skiers should ski in such a way that they don't go into these objects at speed. But some people are not prudent, and go beyond their limits and beyond what is sensible.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Based on the pisteur evidence the only blame for this incident lies on the unfortunate individual and perhaps his mates for egging him on, sad but skiing is not a risk free sport particularly if you go beyond your abilities. Where I am presently 4 people have died at nearby resorts over a 4 day period. 3 suffocations and 1 suspected tree impact and a couple more have been lucky to survive an inbounds slide.
I did use fluent anglo-saxon on a tool who managed to wipe himself out after skiing out of control over the backs of my skis yesterday. Somewhat surprisingly the Yanks around seemed to be more concerned about my bad language than the guy who was a liability to himself and others.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Building a snow wall around a snow cannon is a bad idea! Would you rather have a bright orange and padded obstacle on the slopes or a rock hard icy white ice wall? Obstacles on slopes are not the problem here.
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kat.ryb, agreed, unfortunately the only solution I can see is to make people take a test of some description to prove they are safe on the slopes, I just can't see that occurring and of course there's always the chance of alcohol or friends having an influence as well
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You know it makes sense.
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It's over a year since I was last in Val d'Isere but are the snow cannons in this case actually on the piste or to one side?
What often happens on a number of slopes and Solaise is one of them, is that after a period with little or no snow skiers start skiing to the side of the piste initially to get the powder but over time creating a sort of skier made widening of the piste. That can give the impression that the snow cannons are in the middle of the piste where in fact that is not the case. You will often see people who would not consider themselves off piste skiers, skiing outside boundary markers where that has happened. I suspect that most of them do not even realise that they are technically speaking off piste. They just see decent hard packed snow and assume it is a part of the piste.
I do not recall seeing a snow cannon and after all there are many of them in what I would consider a dangerous place.
The sad irony is that if that slope was left unpisted as it used to be for those that remember the old Solaise mogul field, it would be impossible to ski at high speed on that slope. This is a classic example of where grooming slopes to make them easier for the majority, creates a situation for those want to go faster than their ability level to do so and thereby put themselves at risk.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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D G Orf, the concept of a license to ski has been covered time and time again, bottom line is it has too many problems to implement, and even if it could be done, you couldn't enforce it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| richjp wrote: |
It's over a year since I was last in Val d'Isere but are the snow cannons in this case actually on the piste or to one side?
What often happens on a number of slopes and Solaise is one of them, is that after a period with little or no snow skiers start skiing to the side of the piste initially to get the powder but over time creating a sort of skier made widening of the piste. That can give the impression that the snow cannons are in the middle of the piste where in fact that is not the case. You will often see people who would not consider themselves off piste skiers, skiing outside boundary markers where that has happened. I suspect that most of them do not even realise that they are technically speaking off piste. They just see decent hard packed snow and assume it is a part of the piste.
I do not recall seeing a snow cannon and after all there are many of them in what I would consider a dangerous place.
The sad irony is that if that slope was left unpisted as it used to be for those that remember the old Solaise mogul field, it would be impossible to ski at high speed on that slope. This is a classic example of where grooming slopes to make them easier for the majority, creates a situation for those want to go faster than their ability level to do so and thereby put themselves at risk. |
The snow cannon is 100% in the middle of the piste and the sides of the piste are marked with marker poles. It has been there for years (the snow cannon).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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A bit like when driving a car, there are times when carrying plenty of speed is relatively safe and times when it isn't. We make these judgements all the time and hope we don't get it wrong. I've had my fair share of near misses over the years, but I do try to allow a fairly big margin of error when skiing at high speed anywhere near objects like trees, pylons or snow cannons. Obviously in this case the poor guy made a mistake and was very unfortunate to pay the ultimate price.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Steve Angus wrote: |
The snow cannon is 100% in the middle of the piste and the sides of the piste are marked with marker poles. It has been there for years (the snow cannon). |
Middle of the piste in above the treeline? I skied that slope a couple of times last week and took it easy as it was pretty solid early and late in the day and very easy to get some big speed on.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| davidof wrote: |
| Given the number of collisions resulting in serious injury and death with snow canons and pylons I think resorts will have to rethink the safety aspects in the future. Certainly building a snow wall at the base of the canons at the start of the season might be one idea. |
A wall of snow, really? I think I'd take my chances against an orange padded protector. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FAQ
