 Poster: A snowHead
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| zebedee wrote: |
| ... but there must be some difference between going into the powder at the side of a blue/red compared to other terrain. |
What difference do you think that might be? |
It was more of a question really for those who know, I'd assume some 'off the piste' would be less risky than other areas? I've always felt you needed to be an expert skier to be getting a guide or going on avalance training etc, but I remember in about week 3 of lessons our instructor took us through some fresh snow next to a blue and it was good fun. I'd be keen to try 'off the piste' but only where the risks are low.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Snow stability depends on the snow, weather, wind and terrain.
Proximity to the piste has little, if any, relation to the potential avalanche risk.
The only difference with slopes close to the piste is they usually get skied more often - which can cut up any fresh snow or dangerous layers reducing the risk slightly. However that is no guarantee they will never avalanche on occasion. Especially with fresh snow on terrain > 25 degrees (a steep blue run).
If you really are completely clueless then its worth remembering the very simple rule that '90% of avalanches occur 24 hours after a snowfall'.
For sure - you can ride off piste with out a beacon if you want to.
You can also drive your car with out a seat belt (chances are nothing bad will happen... most of the time)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
I (and I suspect many other people) like to mess about round the edges of pistes, yet I have none of the safety gear.
If I had the kit then I expect I would use it for that sort of thing (value for money and all that), but as it is it's a rather large expense just to mess about at the sides of (fairly shallow) pistes. I most often go off at the sides of blues to add interest, develop skills etc and the gradient is rarely much higher than the piste.
Obviously if I was going to do any more than that (proper off piste course or whatever) I would make sure I had the right kit. Plus I've read enough scare stuff about avalanches (mostly on here!) that I tend to wuss out pretty quickly if I have any doubts... So clearly these topics are helpful...
As zebedee says many instructors take groups off the edges of pistes without kit and safely so it's surely possible to do it safely.
I think nozawaonsen's comments are good.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 2-02-12 16:20; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
For sure - you can ride off piste with out a beacon if you want to.
You can also drive your car with out a seat belt (chances are nothing bad will happen... most of the time) |
Kind of irrelevant, though. Much more sensible to write:
You can ride off piste without learning about it
You can also drive your car round the Nurburgring without lessons. Chances are nothing bad will happen... most of the time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
You can play Russian roulette with a revolver without checking if it's loaded is a more apt analogy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Quote: |
As zebedee says many instructors take groups off the edges of pistes without kit and safely so it's surely possible to do it safely.
|
I am not sure what happens else where, but I have seen French instructors from ESF taking kids off piste and not just down the side of the runs, I have shuddered a couple of times in the last few years seeing this happen, no avi gear and seems to be late afternoon on sunny days to finish the lesson off. OK avi risk was low but it really does surprise me that they are allowed to do this.
Anyone else seen this happening? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I was in Val d'Isere on the lower part of the (I think) Cugnai chair lift and the guide was telling me that the big, gentle off-piste area just to the left of the piste (looking up) often gets avalanched by snow from the steeper slopes above. That's why the piste isn't further left.
He said he had once been on the lift and saw an avalanche start. There were several people just off the piste below him so he was screaming at them to look out - to get back to the piste. All they had to do was move a bit to one side. 3 died. One was taking a leak and was found with her pants down.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| meh wrote: |
| You can play Russian roulette with a revolver without checking if it's loaded is a more apt analogy. |
+1
There are some risks to celebrate, and some to avoid. Nothing fun or glorious or exciting about getting buried alive under tonnes of snow.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Quote: |
Anyone else seen this happening?
|
Yes, through tree bits in ADH. And then I've promptly follwed! If ESF is going that way then I thought if I go the way they go it must bring me back to a piste and not a cliff. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| abc, of course, these for example: wind loaded slopes, cornices, buried surface hoar, depth hoar, concave slopes. All these "other factors" can be killers. |
But we're talking about the same slope as the piste though.
| Quote: |
| If the "piste" is a strip down a face of similar grade, I'd go off the side to harvest the powder. |
So how can there be wind loaded slope if the piste itself isn't? Or cornices/hoar when the piste hasn't got them?
I myself can only find 1 factor distinguishing the piste from the side-of-piste on the same general slope/face: buried rocks. But that's something I'm quite ready to deal with.
I'm genuinely interested in what other factor I've missed by skiing the side-of-piste with the same character of the piste.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
James the Last, i like this analysis.
to the OP, i am a similar skill level to you by the sounds of it and i do exactly the same as you do. It might not be all that responsible, or big or clever, but there you go. I think loads of people do it and have been doing it for years, but folks on the interweb love safety so a popular view on forums seems to be that if you do ski / board off the piste you will die and will kill hundreds of others.
keep up the good work i say. Snowboards weren't built for the pistes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
abc, Plenty of surface hoar and wind driven snow just off the piste at the moment in the Alps it's there and not on the piste because the piste are bashed every day.If a piste cuts through trees then just off the piste you may find trees, drainage ditches, streams, gullies, bushes, snow cannons etc. I play off the side of the piste loads and indeed a long way from the piste. It's all about knowing what hazards may lurk and making a risk assessment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
waynos, trees are visible. I don't consider them "danger" per se. (well, until I hit one, which I did a while back)
Ditches and snow cannons I think are similar to rocks. Basically terrain "features" that makes off-piste a bit less predicable, which I think enhanced the fun factor. On the other hand, I don't see avalanche as fun because I can't really react to it as a test of my skill.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Quote: |
| . I think loads of people do it and have been doing it for years, but folks on the interweb love safety so a popular view on forums seems to be that if you do ski / board off the piste you will die and will kill hundreds of others. |
^ for sure.
some of the warnings in this thread may sound like scare-mongering.
certainly *most* of the time the easily accessible slopes 'between the pistes' are perfectly safe, as you say.
however a surprising number of fatal alpine avalanches do *sometimes* occur within 500m of a piste / ski lift.
not the answer people like to hear. however ignorance is bliss I guess.
so why not educate yourself a little to recognise *potential* dangers which could, and sometimes do, occur ?
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 2-02-12 18:15; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Darwin has an answer to all of this thread.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Even if a slope is not groomed skiers' tracks tend to compact it and make it safer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
dudes
10 times more people die in avalanches
with a tranceiver and gear etc
than die without a tranceiver and gear etc
ok bye
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| monkey wrote: |
James the Last, i like this analysis.
to the OP, i am a similar skill level to you by the sounds of it and i do exactly the same as you do. It might not be all that responsible, or big or clever, but there you go. I think loads of people do it and have been doing it for years, but folks on the interweb love safety so a popular view on forums seems to be that if you do ski / board off the piste you will die and will kill hundreds of others.
keep up the good work i say. Snowboards weren't built for the pistes. |
No-one said you will die, only that you could.
Avalanches happen. Fact. To ignore that, and not make assesments and judgements, is just playing a game of chance and probability. Play that game long enough...
No-one is saying to only ski onpiste. Just that you should learn enough to make decent judgements.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 2-02-12 19:25; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| abc wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| abc, of course, these for example: wind loaded slopes, cornices, buried surface hoar, depth hoar, concave slopes. All these "other factors" can be killers. |
But we're talking about the same slope as the piste though.
| Quote: |
| If the "piste" is a strip down a face of similar grade, I'd go off the side to harvest the powder. |
So how can there be wind loaded slope if the piste itself isn't? Or cornices/hoar when the piste hasn't got them?
I myself can only find 1 factor distinguishing the piste from the side-of-piste on the same general slope/face: buried rocks. But that's something I'm quite ready to deal with.
I'm genuinely interested in what other factor I've missed by skiing the side-of-piste with the same character of the piste. |
Because the piste is bashed and compressed. The rest isn't, so any dangerous layers remain.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Did a fair bit of off piste in Les Arcs a couple of weeks ago. One stretch off down a valley from a black was well skied already and bashed down so it was more like on piste. Risk at time was 1 out of 5. No way would I have gone after fresh snow though. There was four of us, one a member of a mountain rescue team, one had done an off piste course, so I felt ok with the trip as it was my first time at such things
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| James the Last wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| James the Last, do you check for traffic when crossing the road, or just stride across blindly? |
 The point I was making is that it's dangerous whichever way you do it.
|
And the point I was making is that roads are potentially dangerous so we do things to reduce the risk (we learn about the roads and traffic; we look both ways before crossing and we sometimes use special 'equipment' to keep us safe such as pedestrian crossings, brigades, etc). All I'm advocating is that skiers do the same thing with regard to avalanche safety, such as reading a bit about snowpack stability, observing conditions and avalanche bulletins and if necessary use special equipment such as airbags, bleeps, shovels & probes.
It's not a difficult concept, surely?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| abc wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| abc, of course, these for example: wind loaded slopes, cornices, buried surface hoar, depth hoar, concave slopes. All these "other factors" can be killers. |
But we're talking about the same slope as the piste though.
| Quote: |
| If the "piste" is a strip down a face of similar grade, I'd go off the side to harvest the powder. |
So how can there be wind loaded slope if the piste itself isn't? Or cornices/hoar when the piste hasn't got them?
I myself can only find 1 factor distinguishing the piste from the side-of-piste on the same general slope/face: buried rocks. But that's something I'm quite ready to deal with.
I'm genuinely interested in what other factor I've missed by skiing the side-of-piste with the same character of the piste. |
Sorry, but I think you're basing your judgements on a woeful lack of understanding of snowpack stability. Simply stating that a slope is safe because it is near to and the same aspect as a piste is bad advice IMO.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
I'd be fascinated to know the split between people who "have done avalanche training and own arva kit" and "haven't done any training and don't own arva kit". I suspect the former are the more cautious people and the latter are in the "life's full of risks" camp. But I could be wrong.
Grezzo, in truth "possibly" is the best any of us can possibly do on this. The best thing to do is get some education and
is a very good place to start.
Get some education; learn what the avalanche levels mean and try to get some experience off-piste with someone more experienced than yourself - even if that means doing an off-piste day or course.
I ski off-piste more often without avalanche kit than I should do. But it doesn't make it big and it doesn't make it clever.
Should we carry transceivers all the time? Frankly, unless you're going out for a day's on piste hooning, or know the off-piste is going to be rubbish, then carrying an arva pack is so little faff that you may as well do it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| snowball wrote: |
| Even if a slope is not groomed skiers' tracks tend to compact it and make it safer. |
"Skier stabilised". What the guide said to me just moments before this happened - http://www.snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=85907#1970246
To be fair to him - the "stabilised" slid as a nice cohesive whole.
The absolute bug with statistics is if you're in the 0.00001% of the time that general advice breaks down.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| clarky999 wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| So how can there be wind loaded slope if the piste itself isn't? Or cornices/hoar when the piste hasn't got them? |
Because the piste is bashed and compressed. The rest isn't, so any dangerous layers remain. |
+1
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| clarky999 wrote: |
| No-one said you will die, only that you could. |
We are all going to die... 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
It's not a difficult concept, surely? |
I'm not sure what you think I have written that suggests I disagree with you even 1%?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
i turned round to check daughters progress down a Red run up Gontrans Montgenevre, next thing i knew i was 10m "off the piste" in 18 inches of powder
tried to turn back onto piste and ended up in a heap
much to daughters amusement 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| James the Last wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
It's not a difficult concept, surely? |
I'm not sure what you think I have written that suggests I disagree with you even 1%? |
Sorry James the Last, the rhetorical question wasn't aimed at you, just a general point. I should have made that clear.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Let's try this as bullet points:
* Off-piste starts where the grooming stops. This is true in the US as well where in bounds slides do happen.
* The hazards skiing off-piste are different to those on piste. It's not just avalanches either.
* Knowing what the hazards are and how to judge them is an essential skill.
* You won't necessarily get that judgement right so having rescue kit so you can save your buddies life is also a good plan.
Where we seem to be stuck is point three whether or not that skill is essential. I'd say the average holiday skier who dabbles off the edge of the piste is very unlikely to be an avalanche victim as they don't spend enough time on snow to be that exposed. However the times when they are exposed to danger they don't know poo-poo about it and I'd guess are more likely to be fatalities. There are also a lot of them so I'd guess do feature as a significant number of victims.
I and I'd guess the vast majority of people passing on advice here probably started dabbling off-piste in the exact same way. It's not a "YEER GUNNA DIE" situation particularly as most people are going to be sticking to low angle terrain but the only responsible advice is to get the knowledge to be able to judge that as slope angle is only one factor.
Ignorance and luck might get you through to a happy old age or it may not. You can improve those odds by getting educated and applying that knowledge.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Hmm,
I was skiing in Les Contamines last weekend (fabulous incidentally  ). Over on the Hauteluce side there was a HUGE slab avalanche (100m by 20m by 2m) that went right across a piste. If you had been caught by that it would have been game over -transceiver/airbags whatever.
What's my point?
There are risks in all kinds of skiing. There is not any form of skiing that is totally safe. You always need to use a bit of judgement.
Coming back to the original question. I tend to the view that if I am skiing off-piste, close to the piste and a slide would make it onto the piste then the piste patrol have assessed the likelihood of a slide happening as being very low. Doesn't mean that they are certain or correct (see the les contamine example above) but that is their view. I will factor their expert opinion into my judgment of whether it is safe to ski. I would certainly not hire a guide to take me on that kind of terrain.
To be completely honest I learned to ski off-piste by skiing exactly that kind of terrain without a guide, instructor, beacon, shovel or whatever. This was in the 90s when very few people carried that kind of kit for that kind of skiing.
These days I own a beacon etc and tend to wear it whenever I'm skiing off-piste. There are times when I'm skiing large on piste with my kids and will not be carrying the gear and will still nip off the side for a little play.
J
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
meh, nice post
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Wow, thanks for all the replies/opinions. I didn't know these forums were quite this active!
So I guess the general consensus is that I am off piste no matter how far off I go and don't really know anything about reading the snow conditions, which can be very dangerous. I guess at least I'm now a bit more informed about it not being quite as safe off the edge of the pistes as I thought it was.s
I'm certainly not gonna buy all the gear this year (I could barely afford to go this year as it is) and I don't have time to learn much about reading the snow conditions before I go, so I guess I'll just stick to the piste a lot more this trip and perhaps try to learn a bit more for next season.
At the end of the day, most of what we do is a calculated risk, skiing/snowboarding is a fairly dangerous pastime, just like rock climbing is (my main hobby). If we were all trying to be as safe a possible, most of us wouldn't ever go near a road...
Out of interest, how hard is it to be a "safe" (perhaps I mean "informed") back country snowboarder? I know about most of the gear (beacon, pole, shovel, avalung, airbag, etc), just not sure (apart from going to henry's talks) what kind of training is available. Do ski schools do off-piste/backcountry training rather than just guiding?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Grezzo wrote: |
Wow, thanks for all the replies/opinions. I didn't know these forums were quite this active!
So I guess the general consensus is that I am off piste no matter how far off I go and don't really know anything about reading the snow conditions, which can be very dangerous. I guess at least I'm now a bit more informed about it not being quite as safe off the edge of the pistes as I thought it was.s
I'm certainly not gonna buy all the gear this year (I could barely afford to go this year as it is) and I don't have time to learn much about reading the snow conditions before I go, so I guess I'll just stick to the piste a lot more this trip and perhaps try to learn a bit more for next season.
At the end of the day, most of what we do is a calculated risk, skiing/snowboarding is a fairly dangerous pastime, just like rock climbing is (my main hobby). If we were all trying to be as safe a possible, most of us wouldn't ever go near a road...
Out of interest, how hard is it to be a "safe" (perhaps I mean "informed") back country snowboarder? I know about most of the gear (beacon, pole, shovel, avalung, airbag, etc), just not sure (apart from going to henry's talks) what kind of training is available. Do ski schools do off-piste/backcountry training rather than just guiding? |
Courses aren't generally long, complex or that expensive. There's actually another thread running asking about schools and courses:
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=86086
This book is excellent as well:
Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain
You most likely can hire kit in resort as well to avoid having to shell out huge amounts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| meh wrote: |
Let's try this as bullet points:
* Off-piste starts where the grooming stops. |
Isn't it where the lolipops stop? I couldn't help but look at some of the avi-controlled routes in St Anton that were open in the first week of January, with 1m of fresh snow and wonder just exactly how piste patrol could guarantee a 30'-wide safe route down the middle. I tell you something else, they might well have been avi-"safe", but it didn't look "safe" on any other measure as I watched more than one skier getting themselves into a right pickle in the deep powder. One skier I heard about eventually had to ring piste patrol to be dug out after two hours of struggling...
BTW, sorry for mis-reading you rob@rar
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| James the Last wrote: |
| Isn't it where the lolipops stop? I couldn't help but look at some of the avi-controlled routes in St Anton that were open in the first week of January, with 1m of fresh snow and wonder just exactly how piste patrol could guarantee a 30'-wide safe route down the middle. I tell you something else, they might well have been avi-"safe", but it didn't look "safe" on any other measure as I watched more than one skier getting themselves into a right pickle in the deep powder. One skier I heard about eventually had to ring piste patrol to be dug out after two hours of struggling... |
I'd argue ski routes/itineraries are off-piste and the hazards you face on them are pretty much the same as other off-piste skiing apart from making it harder to get lost and having a lower potential for avalanche if they are controlled.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
