 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I haven't read the article but skied loads in Scotland when I was younger.
Maybe average snow depths have changed, I don't know for sure, I haven't looked into it. What I do know is that I live in Chamonix, ski everyday of the winter to earn a living and was chomping at the bit to go to the Cairngorms last winter. I didn't make it unfortunately, but there's always this year! One of the best skiing memories of my life (including 10 winters in Chamonix plus 2 seasons in Park City, Utah) was May 1st 1978. Deep, deep snow, blistered face through sunburn - but the gully beyond the East Wall was epic.
If I lived in the UK, I'd ski in Scotland but Easyjet etc makes the trip to the Alps easier on the wallet than it did for those who are UK based.
We lived in southern Lancashire and drove up to Aviemore nearly every weekend in a non camper VW van, slept in it at Loch Morlich campsite amongst others and also roughed it under the bridge on the access road too (seemed sensible at the time!).
Adventurous spirit and lack of motorway skiing I think sums it up but it's skiing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| houchard wrote: |
| Easyjet etc makes the trip to the Alps easier on the wallet than it did for those who are UK based. |
I think that's changing especially if you are taking kit, and the Scottish Resorts \ tourist office might do well to recognize it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| roga wrote: |
| last time I headed up to Aviemore (admittedly in summer) it took me 6hrs 45mins door to door from Bristol and the petrol costs were a lot less than it would have cost me to fly to Geneva from Bristol and then get a transfer to a resort (or hire a car) given ski carriage costs these days on say Easyjet. Now stick a few more people in my car and the savings would be a no brainer, even without ski carriage costs on a flight. |
That wasn't driving anywhere near the speed limit though was it ?
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I'd love to ski in Scotland sometime. But it took me 5 hrs to get home from Coventry to Sussex 3 weeks ago.
There is obviously cracking skiing to be had on the right day and the right weekend. But some of the people getting slightly chippy about the article under discussion here have also kept us up to date with the ongoing sagas of management issues in Scotland. We also get to hear about problems getting access roads and car parks ploughed, long queues for ski hire etc etc. I think the response here is a bit OTT.
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| rjs wrote: |
| That wasn't driving anywhere near the speed limit though was it ? |
I couldn't possibly comment in detail on a public forum but you might be surprised how 'slow' I was going - I was gobsmacked myself when I realised how quickly the trip was being done and certainly lack of roadworks helped a lot, including the fact they've almost finished that awful stretch between Glasgow and Stirling that's been on a 30/40 limit for ages, it's now clear Motorway and I was passing Stirling before I knew it. Made a massive difference that bit did 
I took one very quick toilet and grab a takeaway coffee stop in the north of England and didn't get any fuel until I reached Perth (could have gone further but I know a cheap petrol station there and the petrol in Aviemore is extortionate) so lack of longer stops helped too.
I guess usually people stop for an hour or more on a trip like that so adding that in you're at a less speed limit smashing sounding time of around 8 hours ...
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roga, I don't stop and it takes me nearly six hours from Manchester. Anybody trying to drive up on a Friday night from further south will also have to deal with the traffic on the M6.
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You could take the James Cove - ‘Britain's rubbish’ approach to lots of things if you want to.
For example, there is better sailing in the Mediterranean where its sunny and there are no big tides, the mountaineering is superior in the Alps because the mountains are higher, ...food... wine.... housing ..... Quality of life ... is better just about everywhere else.... etc etc.
But that rather misses the point doesn’t it ? Skiing in Scotland is different from elsewhere but it’s ours and we love it. Why doesn’t he just move out to the Alps and write and about something he does know about ?
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Peter S, interesting points (not sure Cove is actually saying it's rubbish though but he is sending enough mixed messages to allow some plonker at Natives to publish an article that completely gets it wrong), I don't know anything about sailing but the mountaineering comparison does interest me and has for a while. I think it would be fair to say that in the mountaineering world the Scottish mountains are respected and seen, certainly in the UK community, as well worthy of time and effort despite the fickleness of the Scottish climate, or perhaps because of it! So much so that many famous Alpine and Himilayan climbers have trained and cut their teeth there and return even after trips to far off and far higher places - I don't recall Chris Bonnington, Dougal Haston and their ilk coming back from Everest or the highest Alps and telling people not to bother with Scotland, in fact far from it! I wonder what it is that makes climbers/mountaineers so different to skiers, even some of the hard-core off-piste brigade who might find so much to their taste in the Highlands?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Scotland as an option for say a sneaky weekend
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a much better option for a sneaky mid-week, I reckon.
I've only skied once in Scotland (would have done so more often, but with working full time and living in Ayrshire,with three kids and a few poor winters for snow, it kind of never worked out).
I've sailed a fair bit in Scotland (west coast only - can't imagine bothering with the east coast) as well as in the Solent, the Mediterranean, the Caribbean and the Pacific and I'd choose Scotland over the others for a week's cruise, on the whole. The West Coast of Scotland is brilliant sailing territory - you can do quite a lot without being too macho (e.g. in the Clyde) and the tortured coastline means there's always some bolt hole to escape from a gale from any point of the compass. You do tend to spend a fair bit of time doing just that, admittedly.... 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rjs wrote: |
| roga wrote: |
| last time I headed up to Aviemore (admittedly in summer) it took me 6hrs 45mins door to door from Bristol and the petrol costs were a lot less than it would have cost me to fly to Geneva from Bristol and then get a transfer to a resort (or hire a car) given ski carriage costs these days on say Easyjet. Now stick a few more people in my car and the savings would be a no brainer, even without ski carriage costs on a flight. |
That wasn't driving anywhere near the speed limit though was it ? |
I demand a recount. That would be averaging 74 mph without any stops (Bristol is almost exactly 500 miles from Aviemore). Assuming say 30 mins max for a couple of stops, it means a new average of 80 mph and to do that, as we all know, you have to be almost constantly up and around the ton or more especially since the A9 seems to be dug up here there and everywhere. License-losing territory all the way.
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Fiat Panda to Fort William from Staffordshire = 7 hours with stops. Quicker and less stressful than a Sleazy jet flight & transfer to say Chamonix.
I've just booked flights for Geneva and they came in at £160 each inc. kit. Add in car parking, transfer and mucking about and it's going to be £250. This weekend I checked on some flights for Toulouse towards Christmas and they were coming in at £200 plus - and that would have required a 4 hour drive to Gatwick plus the parking.
I normally allow £500 for costs to travel down to the Pyrenees by car.
edit for sums
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Mon 10-10-11 11:56; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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Even from the SE (perhaps more so than other parts of the South) don't rule Scotland out for a cheeky weekend or short mid-week trip, esp if it's a drop of a hat I need to slide itch and the weather gods are smiling situation! The ScotRail Caledonian Sleeper is a largely untapped resource for this purpose, but it's possibilities are not lost on the climbing world (from experience in the lounge bar at any rate...  ).
Obviously it's only October so this is a short notice price comparison that isn't a fully fledged winter one, as EasyJet aren't flying to several winter destinations atm, so I choose Vienna airport for the example. The dates used were of this week to get short term prices and based on setting off from Central London:
The mission was a 2 day short break at the destination on Wed & Thursday, travelling Tuesday afternoon or evening and back on Friday.
Pricing up this using Vienna as an example. Outward flight was at noon on Tuesday, return on Friday was in to Gatwick at 5.10pm.
Full cost of flights including taxes, booking fee and 1 set of skis (assuming you can stuff everything in the ski bag/hand luggage) was £404.74.
The cheapest hotel that came up on the EasyJet site for Vienna was £72.38 per night single room, so used that to price accommodation at £217.13 for 3 nights.
Priced car hire at £126.73 for an economy model (suggested model was a fiat 500, will your skis fit?).
Finally chuck in £20 for two advance singles for the Gatwick Express.
All told for travel and accommodation (excluding ski pass and spending cash) the total is £768.60, requiring you give up Tuesday and Friday for travel, so 4 days off work for 2 skiing.
However, the Snowgods and Weather gods are smiling on the Central Highlands, so what about the ScotRail Caledonian Sleeper?
A basic super off-peak anglo-Scottish return is £131. Based on this ticket with appropriate supplements the ticket price would be as follows:
Seated Sleeper Return: £131 return
Berth in Shared Cabin: £207 return
Solo Cabin Return: £239 return
Seat out / Solo Back: £185
Let's base this on the solo cabin both ways, push the boat out a bit! Departing at 21.15hrs on the Tuesday, should be possible for a large number without time of work on Tuesday. Arrives back in London at 7.47am on Friday (or 6.40 if you use an Inverness Edinburgh train to connect with the lowland sleeper from Edinburgh).
Travelling overnight means you only require 1 nights accommodation. A single room with full breakfast at the Cairngorm Hotel across the road from Aviemore Station is £85 on Wed night this week. There is a bus to the mountain from outside the station, 2 days of return tickets would be £8.
Total Cost with solo berth on the Sleeper and 1nights accommodation + transport to CairnGorm Mountain £332.
Or if you go with the seated up and solo berth back down option £279.
How cheap can it be done, well a private room in the Aviemore Youth Hostel is £16 a night, plus the seated sleeper both ways: £156. At that price that's just shy of five trips for the price of the one on EasyJet.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Bode Swiller, was nowhere near a ton as you put it but I've said my piece and am saying no more about speeds since these things do and can get people in hot water - suffice to say it's easy enough to do it from here with a couple of short stops in 7-8 hours given no major traffic delays and roadworks - A9 was good when I did that trip BTW.
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Poster: A snowHead
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roga, I'll echo that. I've done Bristol to Loch Morlich in those sort of times as well without breaking the limit by too much, i.e driving around 80mph when the road was clear. A lot of it comes down to luck; weather, roadworks time of day and other road users.
It is an easy run and we used to do it a lot; the quickest ever was on the 31st July 1981 taking only 8 hours from getting in the car in the centre of Brizzle to getting the tents out at Glenmore Campsite. Not a souls in sight around Brum at about 10.30 am. It was like driving in one of those "survivour" flims when the whole world has been killed off except for a few! Eerie but made for a great run through using 3 drivers and absolutely no stress whatsoever.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ha - Natives.co.uk have printed an apology for repeating the original Planet Ski 'story'.
Credit where credit is due.
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| We recently published a story on Natives about the state of the Scottish ski industry that ruffled a few feathers. We made a mistake. The source of the story was not thoroughly checked and this lead to a biased story. We're sorry about this and, as a way of making amends, we decided to give the floor to someone in the Scottish industry to give us an accurate account of the state of the ski industry in Scotland. The rest of this article is brought to you by Jamie Gunn, snowsports enthusiast, employee at CairnGorm for several years and one of the guys slapping our wrists for the previous article. Take it away, Jamie. |
Jamie Gunns excellent article can be read in full here...
http://www.natives.co.uk/go/news/dispelling-the-scottish-ski-myths.html
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
suffice to say it's easy enough to do it from here with a couple of short stops in 7-8 hours
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Ah, it's creeping up under severe cross examination. It was 6:45, now up to maybe 8 hours. That makes a lot of difference to the kind of max speeds you need to hit to get your average. Daytime driving in UK, I find it really difficult to better an average of 60mph - there are just too many others in the way who don't realise it's my road network.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Winterhighland wrote: |
All told for travel and accommodation (excluding ski pass and spending cash) the total is £768.60, requiring you give up Tuesday and Friday for travel, so 4 days off work for 2 skiing.
Total Cost with solo berth on the Sleeper and 1nights accommodation + transport to CairnGorm Mountain £332. |
Skewed or what? Aside from the example being Vienna, the real world comparative costs for someone living in London & SE are a lot different to that.
My usual cheeky 3 dayer would be to fly out of Heathrow to Munich on BA on a sunday. Costs about £120.
Return train to/from say Kitzbuhel - allow £60 - might need short taxi at other end. (obviously cheaper if a group and hire a car)
2 night hotel - allow £100 for very decent B&B
Fly back out on the late one on tuesday night. Normally means can ski til 3pm ish. So that's two days off work for two days skiing at sub £400 (not including passes).
And there's a much better deal out there... fly to Innsbruck on easyJet, taxi for 4km to city centre hotel and head up to the Nordpark on the lift that goes out of the city. You get 1/2 day / full day / 1/2 day skiing and can be done for £250 in a top quality business hotel.
I normally drive to Cairngorm and I've done the Caledonian Sleeper a few times. It's fun, I'm a big fan of Scottish skiing but would I prefer to pay same or less to hit Austria? Yes, I would.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bode Swiller, skewed compared to real world comparative costs? These were the real world prices on the respective booking engines for this week, for flights, for trains, for car hire, for accommodation, What would be paid for a short notice trip which was the whole point.
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Winterhighland, just skewed. You need better comparisons. Vienna? C'mon.
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... in fact, they don't ask about Scotland at all. From now on Scotland will be known as Other (Please Specify) (but I appreciate it's no laughing matter)
They do ask about Eastern Europe though, a place that sees less visitors than our home snow.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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An often voiced criticism of the SCE ... ooops sorry SCGB is that they tend to ignore the home scene, particularly Scotland and I think it's not particularly unfair to be honest. Once, when I was a member (for the discounts, honest), I mentioned Scotland on their forum and the amount of vitriol I got in return was shocking to be honest so perhaps their attitude simply reflects their membership - they really should amend the name though
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, I see the issue of Scotland going missing has just appeared on Winter Highland. Reckon there'll be folks mustering up there to march on Wimbledon. Gonna get messy.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Mind you having said that they did have a decent article about Scotland (or at least the visit of a couple of US ski journos to Scotland) in their last magazine so they do have occasional relapses into mentioning Scottish skiing ... oh and they've helped clear the rubbish at the Scottish ski areas at the end of the last couple of seasons too
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| rob@rar, I see the issue of Scotland going missing has just appeared on Winter Highland. Reckon there'll be folks mustering up there to march on Wimbledon. Gonna get messy. |
LOL, they're not very popular on Winterhighland it has to be said!
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You know it makes sense.
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| roga wrote: |
| Mind you having said that they did have a decent article about Other (Please Specify) (or at least the visit of a couple of US ski journos to Other (Please Specify)) in their last magazine so they do have occasional relapses into mentioning Other (Please Specify) skiing ... oh and they've helped clear the rubbish at the Other (Please Specify) ski areas at the end of the last couple of seasons too |
Just tidied that up for you. More accurate now.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Winterhighland, Why Vienna? If you were going for a quick ski break in Austria then Vienna is the last and most expensive airport. From SE England loads of flights in winter to say Salzburg, loads of ski resorts within 1 hour, easy autobahn driving from airport. Other options would be Innsbruck, Graz, Linz, Klagenfurt, across the border to Munich. Last few years I was living an hours drive from Stansted, and on several trips I did from home to ski lift in Austria in 6 hours.I'm not making a dig a Scottish skiing, done a few trips myself a few backs, experienced the good and the bad, but the alps are very accessible.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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waynos, see http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=80290 . The reason was i decided to compare flights to Austria priced for this week, but then discovered that easyJet didn't have any flights available to Salzburg or Innsbruck to compare against atm. Yes you can book flights very cheaply months ahead, but I was trying to make a short notice comparison.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
As someone who learnt to ski in Scotland some facts:-
I spent a 2 week holiday staying in Kingussie, for 5 days there was no access to the slopes due to snow and high winds. When they did open the fresh snow had been blown away and we were back to the "firm base" ie. ice.
Of the 20 odd weekends that I travelled from Merseyside to the Scottish resorts having first called the info line on an Edinburgh number and getting the "fresh snow on a firm base" message I know that for sure I did not put skis on for 5 of theses weekends and another 5 when I got 1 or part of 1 day skiing. I do however remember 2 good days ie. sun and good snow, but the reason I remember them was because they where so rare!
To ski in Scotland you need to be within an hour of the slopes, because that is how long it takes for conditions to change dramatically!
Those are facts.
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Dypcdiver,
The above was true in 1991 but it is now 2011 and you have the internet. No need to get duff information from the 'ski hotline'. Winterhighland, MWIS, Met Office, BBC, snow-forecast and netweather (and many others) will now freely provide you with forecasts. You can see when a great forecast could turn bad/iffy, or a slightly iffy forecast will deliver great skiing. You can even see the output charts to gauge how likely a forecast is to come off. My last poor day's skiing in Scotland was 2007, when I had very slow dial-up for a few months, lived in Glasgow and had to rely on ceefax. We have access to public reports, realtime webcams and a vast array of local knowledge. Been travelling from Manchester or Lancashire 2007-11, never left early due to poor weather, never started late due to blocked roads, never got stuck (yet).
Those are more recent facts.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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what...snow,
So, am I to belive that the internet has changed the conditions for skiing in Scotland or has it made me aware of conditions elsewhere 
I have lasting memories of a BASI course in April 1976 or 77 on which we had to demonstrate our ability on narrow ribbons of light brown snow, it took a week or so to get the "glad I had done it" feeling. As I have said, if you live locally it can make sense.
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Dypcdiver, am I to believe that recent excellent seasons have been some sort of fantasy since you seemingly present us with facts?
Am I to believe that all of my trips to Scotland from Bristol (not exactly local) over the last 4/5 years haven't made sense and my memories of enjoying every single one (as have many other Snowheads) is perhaps part of that same fantasy ...
...or am I to believe that some people just don't like skiing in Scotland because they've had bad experiences (usually years or even decades ago) and seem unable to acknowledge that others might feel different - vive la différence I say!
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Dypcdiver,
No, I don't think the internet has changed Scottish snow patterns. In the '80s I did live only an hour from a Scottish ski centre and skied most winter weekends at Glenshee, the Lecht or Cairngorm. I remember regularly skiing in nasty conditions, ferocious winds and ice featured regularly. And the queues were only bearable because I was one of those annoying brats in the race team getting priority. Living an hour away didn't seem to help avoiding the bad weather as forecasting was frankly minimal. There was the odd nice day I could remember but at university I just didn't bother going because it didn't seem worth it. Afterwards it took quite a few years before I ventured up to Glencoe; those memories certainly put me off.
As internet access has improved, we all now have more info than the folks living an hour from the slopes. Actually we now have at our fingertips way more information than the bloke making stuff up on the ski hotline in the 80s or piste patrol. There are some aspects of forecasting that can go wrong (particularly marginal snow events - lots of precipitation at -1c is good, at +2c it isn't) but wind is much less of a problem - big gaps between the isobars is good and rarely changes hour by hour. The ski areas can't get away with telling us all that conditions are great when they aren't, we can see from our sofas - remember the 'cosmetic snow' event at Cairngorm of 2-3yrs ago?
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Ooo! Vintgage thread - just like SCGB bashing in its heyday here - and Classic Goldsmith, too 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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roga,
Sorry if I seem to be offending you, but it is how I remember the condition, I really don't see why you are offended. I am pleased that you have had such pleasant visits and long may it continue, I even said in my first post that I had also had good days.
what...snow,
My comment re: the internet was really meant tongue in cheek,(no smiley for that) However I really can relate to your first paragraph, at the time I was skiing there on a regular basis I bought a McGreggor suit one size too big so that I could get an extra layer beneath it, but even that was not enough to avoid the horzontal hail stones at Glencoe causing bruising to my legs, I thought the dye had run at first 
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| roga wrote: |
Dypcdiver, am I to believe that recent excellent seasons have been some sort of fantasy since you seemingly present us with facts?
Am I to believe that all of my trips to Scotland from Bristol (not exactly local) over the last 4/5 years haven't made sense and my memories of enjoying every single one (as have many other Snowheads) is perhaps part of that same fantasy ...
...or am I to believe that some people just don't like skiing in Scotland because they've had bad experiences (usually years or even decades ago) and seem unable to acknowledge that others might feel different - vive la différence I say! |
I've had good days and very bad days skiing in Scotland. The good days have been as nothing compared to the amazing days I've had in the Alps, while the bad days have been way worse then anything I've ever skied anywhere else in the world.
Ideally, I want to ski deep powder and have to book my trips in advance. Given all that, I have no option but to play the percentage game and book places with a good snow record. No one in their right mind, in my position, would gamble on Scotland.
The next time I ski in Scotland will be on an occasion when I happen to be up there already and they get some good snow.
BTW, your rabid evangelism is sure to put people off, every bit as much as the generally cr@p weather and the generally poor snow already does.
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