 Poster: A snowHead
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little tiger, I completely agree. If only to ski that badly...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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[quote="altis]So many instructors, and even trainers, talk so much bollox that, IMV, Newton ought to be one of the Fundamental Elements. Sure, if you just try to explain skiing in terms of the physics, most learners will just switch off instantly. However, some will benefit from knowing what's going on and the teacher should NEVER EVER explain something in a way that is clearly wrong. This simply confuses the learner and can undermine their position.[/quote]
Many thanks to those who have managed to make this all make sense!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The up motion at the start of a turn causes some confusion, especially in older skiers, because its purpose has completely changed, yet the motion is similar.
Years ago we were taught to have a rapid up motion to unweight the skis and make them easier to rotate, effectively a small jump.
Now we teach a slower motion to apply pressure to the ski early in the turn (counting drills are excellant).
Effectively the exact opposite.
If we apply pressure to a ski (ie. bend it) and put it on edge, it goes round the corner all on its own.
In the second half of the turn we can use our momentum to apply pressure to the ski, but we have to do something else if we want to apply pressure in the first part of the turn.
I call it pro-active & re-active pressure.
A pole plant is a tool. Use it if it helps. For most people it is extremely beneficial, especialy in short radius turns and bumps.
It is a psychological & timing trigger, and can help keep your stance forwards.
A-framing isn't quite the crime against humanity it is made out to be.
Like everything else, it is a tool, and there are times when it can be extremely useful.
You just need to make sure you only use it when appropriate, as there are some drawbacks.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Lots of different points of view here, I'll throw mine in too.
First off, I don't really think an 'up' move is ever a positive thing to teach, moving up in relation to your skis does very little to help you turn, extending across your skis into the new turn (down the hill) is better as it gets your CoM moving inside the turn and allows you to stay centred on your skis, if you move purely vertically and steer your skis down the hill, you will be aft. This is related to the pole plant as that movement of the pole down the hill can assist the lateral movement of your CoM over the skis. Even in a hop turn you need to be moving down the hill in order to stay in balance
As for creating pressure by standing up, not a great idea either, it is possible to weight your skis through extension, but only for the briefest of moments. Try standing on that set of scales mentioned earlier and see how long you can make yourself heavy, not long. You can however manage the pressure created by your turn, and in high performance skiing, that's most frequently (and efficiently) done using a flexion movement at transition rather than an extension. This is because, as DaveC said, you want to have the highest edge angles/amount of pressure at the apex of the turn (the middle). Why would you want to create pressure at the top of the turn? You want to develop edge angles to allow you to use pressure later in the turn, but if you think about pushing your skis high in the turn, it's going to be hard to manage those forces when you actually need to.
As for the rotational element discussed with the pole planting, I still think a poleplant in a regular short turn is just there to focus your movements down the hill and as a timing aid. Unless I make a heavy blocking pole move in moguls (and when those happen, I've done something wrong), not much force goes into my poleplants at all. Also, I find pivot slips easier without poleplants than with, if you flatten your skis at the right time, there is virtually no friction, why would you need to push off something?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| jimmer wrote: |
| As for creating pressure by standing up, not a great idea either, it is possible to weight your skis through extension, but only for the briefest of moments. Try standing on that set of scales mentioned earlier and see how long you can make yourself heavy, not long. You can however manage the pressure created by your turn, and in high performance skiing, that's most frequently (and efficiently) done using a flexion movement at transition rather than an extension. This is because, as DaveC said, you want to have the highest edge angles/amount of pressure at the apex of the turn (the middle). Why would you want to create pressure at the top of the turn? You want to develop edge angles to allow you to use pressure later in the turn, but if you think about pushing your skis high in the turn, it's going to be hard to manage those forces when you actually need to. |
I suppose it depends on what you consider to be performance skiing but extending at transition works well for racing. You want to create pressure at the start of the turn so that the ski carves into the fall line.
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| rjs wrote: |
| jimmer wrote: |
| As for creating pressure by standing up, not a great idea either, it is possible to weight your skis through extension, but only for the briefest of moments. Try standing on that set of scales mentioned earlier and see how long you can make yourself heavy, not long. You can however manage the pressure created by your turn, and in high performance skiing, that's most frequently (and efficiently) done using a flexion movement at transition rather than an extension. This is because, as DaveC said, you want to have the highest edge angles/amount of pressure at the apex of the turn (the middle). Why would you want to create pressure at the top of the turn? You want to develop edge angles to allow you to use pressure later in the turn, but if you think about pushing your skis high in the turn, it's going to be hard to manage those forces when you actually need to. |
I suppose it depends on what you consider to be performance skiing but extending at transition works well for racing. You want to create pressure at the start of the turn so that the ski carves into the fall line. |
Exactly.
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| rjs wrote: |
| I suppose it depends on what you consider to be performance skiing but extending at transition works well for racing. You want to create pressure at the start of the turn so that the ski carves into the fall line. |
A point which was drilled in to me by Dave Morris who said that my GS turns looked a bit "light and drifty, and I really should grab hold of them at the start of the turn".
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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What is "the start of the turn"? The term is used frequently but is it properly defined and is it well understood? When I am doing (trying to do) linked turns down a slope does one turn finish and then another one start? Or, do the turns blend together? Should I finish a turn and then start the next turn? Towards the end of one turn should I be setting my stance etc ready for the next turn?
When I am doing linked turns I do not think that about starting a turn, I think about keeping things flowing smoothly.
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Adrian, it's when you change from one set of edges to another, and it should flow as much as possible so that all the movements you make are progressive and blend from one phase of the turn to the next.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I see more extension in SG and Downhill, but almost all GS and SL racers look like they have a flexed initiation these days. And as I said before I really don't think you can 'create' pressure. if you stay taller, more of the rebound energy of the ski is maintained, but you haven't made it through standing up. You don't need extra pressure for the ski to be carving into the fall line, you need edge angles.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| jimmer wrote: |
| You don't need extra pressure for the ski to be carving into the fall line, you need edge angles. |
I'm possibly being over-pedantic here, but...
If you had a ski that was on edge, but not pressured then it wouldn't turn. It needs to have some pressure on it to force it into reverse camber.
Extending Alan McGregor's, which I like, higher end skiing is about being pro-active in the front half of the turn - rather just reactive in the bottom half of the turn.
In order for your skis to be pro-actively working in the front half of the turn they need to be on edge at some point before the fall line - and you need to have enough pressure (force) pushing into the skis to make them bend into reverse camber.
I suspect that part of the difference here isn't actually what's happening, but the difference in how we personally think about it and what our focus is when we're doing it. In truth both of us are (hopefully - and I say that for me, rather than you!) getting early edge angle and the skis in reverse camber.
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| jimmer wrote: |
| You don't need extra pressure for the ski to be carving into the fall line, you need edge angles. |
I'm possibly being over-pedantic here, but...
If you had a ski that was on edge, but not pressured then it wouldn't turn. It needs to have some pressure on it to force it into reverse camber.
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Being equally pedantic it's impossible to have a ski on "edge" and unpressured. If there is no pressure the ski is not on edge it will be sitting on two contact points.
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