spiceman, oooh, really looking forward to the answers to this one.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Haha, ok, I'll have a go!
All short radius turns don't need to have a steering element, it's entirely possible to make a short edge locked carve turn, they just don't slow you down very much, as you can't bend the ski enough to direct it all the way across the fallline, so you end up going pretty fast, which is good or bad, depending on your viewpoint. Not sure what you mean by 'pivot and carve' vs 'steer all the way round', if you mean steering a flat ski vs steering an edged ski, steering an edged ski is far preferable, I am of the viewpoint that skis should be flat as little as possible.
As for the crossunder/crossover/crossthrough debate, I personally think a crossunder (or retraction) at initiation is the best way to move the CoM as far inside the turn as possible. for all flavours of short turn, it allows you to build pressure in the fallline (as opposed to late in the turn), and then manage that pressure to move into the next turn. A negative I sometimes see (and probably sometimes do), is that people have a tendency to actively retract, rather than have their legs flex in response to the rebound from their ski. When you actively retract you lose that rebound, and thus some of your ski performance. A retraction is undoubtedly the best in the bumps though, as you need to flex in order to absorb the bump, if you stand tall at intiation in the bumps, you're going to have a hard time keeping your skis on the ground.
A crossover works, but in order to move inside the turn and engage your edges early it requires an inclination move, ie tipping your whole body inside the turn. I find this works well in a medium turn, because it's easier to time your movements there, and a stacked, inclined body position is stronger when you are going fast (easier to do when you are going fast as well). In a short turn, it's hard to do because although you are going slower in terms of absolute speed, you are having to adjust to pressure building faster. I have been told to incline more in my short turns by trainers, but some of these same trainers will still lose their outside ski (if you continue to incline and move inside the turn instead of angulating, you'll end up with you outside ski in the air, or your ass on the floor), every run or so, so I am beginning to think it's just not a good idea (in short turns), unless you are absolutly hauling, in which case it'll probably work fine.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
spiceman wrote:
FastMan,
Quote:
These are carved cross under turns.
question for the technique experts, what are the relative merits of crossover vs crossunder vs crossthrough transitions for short rad turns? Are some best for steeps, some for bumps, some for off piste etc? Some of the PSIA turns look more like crossover than under, is that just me?
Then again, am I correct in understanding that all short rad turns must have some rotation (either steering or pivoting) - a purely carved short rad turn is physically impossible unless you're on <5 m radius skis? And, can we say that "pivot & carve" is better than "steer all the way round" in some situations...?
little tiger, yes I have read these, what I was trying to do was understand how these transition explanations apply to various types of turn. EG, is a crossunder transition mainly linked to the pivot & carve as Fastman indicated was shown in the first video set? (I thought the main use of crossunder was in the bumps, when it is combined usually with a highly steered turn). Or in racing, are crossover transitions better suited to the steep gates in GS with crossunder for the closely spaced gates on the flatter sections, and slalom courses?
jimmer, thanks for your comments, but I'm afraid they've raised some more questions (apologies to the OP here, this is not intended to be a thread hijack...)
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it's entirely possible to make a short edge locked carve turn
Are you sure? If there's no pivot to start or steering later on, then you will turn with the radius of the ski, adapted by how much you are bending it with pressure. This means you'll be typically 12-13m for a SL ski, maybe reduced by some bending (I am guessing to 7-10m, certainly more than half the rad I think?) This to me is more a medium radius turn (I remember on a previous BASI course being told that short rads should be in a 2m corridor, implying a turn rad of not much more than that if you want to avoid uncontrollable speed gain.)
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Not sure what you mean by 'pivot and carve'
See Fastman's description at the beginning, using the US definition that pivot is unweighted rotation and steering is weighted.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Interesting thread with some good comments...here is my two cents:
Should someone looking to improve in powder ski powder whenever they get the chance? YES but
Who is going to ski powder better, an excellent on piste skier who has never been in powder or a mediocre on piste skier with a decent amount of powder experience? Give the excellent on piste skier an hour and they will be better than the mediocre piste skier in the powder. If you can make the dynamic turns shown on piste in the above videos, its not going to take you too long to figure out how to ski powder.
Put the two together and the formula is to ski powder whenever you get the chance, but work on your on piste skiing when powder is not available. This includes stuff that gets you out of your comfort zone, including the drills mentioned above and in Rick's video. Someone asked how long it takes to get as good as the guys in the video? Forever and a day if you do not push yourself to improve which means trying stuff (i.e. drills) that you are not very good at to start. The perfect/ideal off piste technique can be debated somewhat, but anything that helps you improve your balance (both lateral and fore/aft), edge control and allows you to become more dynamic is going to help both your on piste and off piste skiing.
Pam W- You'll never ski like these guys and it is hard to see exactly what their legs are doing under the snow, but look at how stable their upper bodies are considering the terrain. This is something that you could strive for even if you never consider taking on the terrain they are in. Through the proper practice, you should be able to gradually improve your balance and edge control and take you skiing to a new level. While snow time is best, improving overall strength and balance can be done with dry land training if you are so motivated.
it's entirely possible to make a short edge locked carve turn
Quote:
Are you sure? If there's no pivot to start or steering later on, then you will turn with the radius of the ski, adapted by how much you are bending it with pressure. This means you'll be typically 12-13m for a SL ski, maybe reduced by some bending (I am guessing to 7-10m, certainly more than half the rad I think?) This to me is more a medium radius turn (I remember on a previous BASI course being told that short rads should be in a 2m corridor, implying a turn rad of not much more than that if you want to avoid uncontrollable speed gain.)
You can carve short radius turns in a 2m,3m,5m etc. etc. corridor with a 10m,11m etc. etc. ski, you would just be skiing less of the circumference of that particular radius in question to produce a narrower corridor run, so if you were to hold on longer to that particular radius of turn you would ski a longer circumference on that same radius resulting in a wider corridor run.
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implying a turn rad of not much more than that if you want to avoid uncontrollable speed gain.)
Depends on how steep the terrain, slalom verticalli are put there for that reason, to encourage speed on flatter terrain, this is where narrow corridor carved crossunders are displayed, the body goes straight down the line of poles and the legs etc. crossunder the body weaving their way through the poles!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
You can carve short radius turns in a 2m,3m,5m etc. etc. corridor with a 10m,11m etc. etc. ski, you would just be skiing less of the circumference of that particular radius in question to produce a narrower corridor run, so if you were to hold on longer to that particular radius of turn you would ski a longer circumference on that same radius resulting in a wider corridor run.
to be pedantic, arern't you talking arc length not radius? As the corridor width changes, you vary the arc length (ie how long you hold on to the turn) but in each case the radius remains the same at 10,11m etc - to which my question was, is this really short radius?
After all it is free
After all it is free
spiceman,
[quote]arern't you talking arc length not radius?[/quote
Yes your right, might have been better...
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so if you were to hold on longer to that particular radius turn you would ski a longer arc on that radius resulting in a wider corridor run.
To add-
Quote:
(I am guessing to 7-10m, certainly more than half the rad I think?) This to me is more a medium radius turn (I remember on a previous BASI course being told that short rads should be in a 2m corridor, implying a turn rad of not much more than that if you want to avoid uncontrollable speed gain.)
I think he probably meant "short swings" using edge check etc. to avoid uncontrollable speed!? not carved!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
MEfree30 wrote:
Who is going to ski powder better, an excellent on piste skier who has never been in powder or a mediocre on piste skier with a decent amount of powder experience? Give the excellent on piste skier an hour and they will be better than the mediocre piste skier in the powder. If you can make the dynamic turns shown on piste in the above videos, its not going to take you too long to figure out how to ski powder.
I completely disagree. Average race guys flailing off piste, and the majority of strong skiers I've met without instructor backgrounds really don't ski that well on piste. Skiing bumps well is way more transferable - I've seen so many people who tell me they're good skiers that've learned to fudge it on a groomer and can't handle ungroomed at all.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
DaveC wrote:
I completely disagree. Average race guys flailing off piste, and the majority of strong skiers I've met without instructor backgrounds really don't ski that well on piste. Skiing bumps well is way more transferable - I've seen so many people who tell me they're good skiers that've learned to fudge it on a groomer and can't handle ungroomed at all.
There's definitely something in this although I'd hesitate to agree completely because I think it depends entirely on context. Obviously in Fernie you'd be completely insane to concentrate on becoming an expert on piste skier at the expense of wider skills as 100% of what is interesting about the ski area is off groomed. For those who point to Daron Rahvles etc as paragons of the racer turned freeskier remember that he grew up at Squaw, Sugarbowl etc where race kids ski the whole mountain (and some bits that would cause most adults to pause for thought). I'd say that outside of Europe and particularly outside those that have had a structured programme for skiing as kids the interest in piste performance is not that high among serious skiers (in contrast to casual skiers clocking say 8 or fewer days a season). That's not to say no-one should recognise that skills are transferable but we're back to the "variable snow" argument - instructors wouldn't need to practice it specifically if skills were 100% transferable without further work.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
fatbob wrote:
... remember that he grew up at Squaw, Sugarbowl etc where race kids ski the whole mountain
Almost every good coach I know has their race kids ski the whole mountain... I can tell you my Canadian instructor grew up at Whistler and they used to straightline the chute on Blackcomb(is it Sudan's?) that gets the nice windlip... why? Good jumping practice! Some places the whole mountain may have less challenge than others, but make no mistakes kids in a good race program should have plenty of time skiing all conditions available to them... this is how they build up their base skills, gates are for line work etc, but they need the skill base first.
I spoke to a friend recently whose buddy took the bottom group of race kids at Park City - as buddy is not a coach they decided to focus on skills... those kids topped the lot by end of season. Some even made the farm team(or whatever they call the one that kids get selected to national team from). Skills are a very big start.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Oh and my other instructor was a canadian provincial race coach - same deal. His kids did well, and as he said he just taught them to ski really well first. Sure they work on racing, but skiing everywhere builds all the skills they need also.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Just to add a little idea to the original poster (Fastman has as usual given a full explanation which makes me understand what I actually do so much better)...
IMO, the difference between the turns in the video and good old short-swing turns is not huge. A lot is the same. The key difference is the (knee) angulation that Fastman talks about plus more emphasis on being "low" and "ready" for the unweighting caused by the skis crossing under, rather than creating the unweighting by extending. I typically use these turns in well tracked-out off-piste but I quite enjoy switching between old-school short-swings and these dynamic carves as I build up speed or get onto steeper terrain. So my thought is this - start by doing short-swings and gradually ratchet-up the knee angulation and just wait for the skis to start whipping across you.
On the other question about whether these turns are useful drills for powder skiing, I think they are, at least in part. The unweighted pivot at the end of the turn is very much the same as the one you do at the end of a tradional powder eight type short turn. Of course the angulation and aggressive body position are not relevant but the feeling of the skis coming across and unweighting and you redirecting them into the next turn is similar.
usual caveats about me not being an instructor apply!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Might of opened a can of worms by bringing racers into this - admittedly the Fernie race kids in FAST are just ridiculously good everywhere, but as above, it's because they ski the whole mountain at a young age. fatbob, I'm not entirely on board with the skills not being "transferable" - a bit like the "it's not that you can't ski the bumps" cliche, at the end of the day it's all just skiing - the problem is that groomed runs are super forgiving to all sorts of weird styles - while "variable" snow can be forgiving too, it tends to highlight the big flaws by making people feel a bit silly.
Saying that, I've had at least two full on faceplants and a solid tomahawk today skiing in the 30cms of april cement on my carvers, so maybe the answer is just to get fatter skis
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
Pam W- You'll never ski like these guys and it is hard to see exactly what their legs are doing under the snow, but look at how stable their upper bodies are considering the terrain. This is something that you could strive for even if you never consider taking on the terrain they are in. Through the proper practice, you should be able to gradually improve your balance and edge control and take you skiing to a new level.
Yep - and yep again!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
pam w, I believe one of the aussie demo team in your video is young Reilly - who is now a powder 8 world champ according to Facebook...
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
I believe one of the aussie demo team in your video is young Reilly - who is now a powder 8 world champ according to Facebook...
little tiger, well not THAT far out of my league, then
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Just saw this up on Fb and thought of this thread, some high performance short turns in pow! And then some in manky spring slush at the end of the clip (with one of the local SAJ examiners).
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
