 Poster: A snowHead
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He he I've finally got my head into this thread. Very interesting.
Two observations:
(1) Back in the day, on my (1989) 201 Rossi 7SKs, when I was pootling around with clients, I'd prety much hang out on the fonrt of the boots, just adding or decreasing pressure but always having quite a lot in place. Much more centred and dynamic fore and aft when skiing at my own pace.
These days on the piste skis (165cm, 66mm, FIS SLs) it's not reveresed, quite, but I find I can pootle about almost completely centred letting the ski do almost all the work.
(2) On my fatter skis (189cm, 98mm underfoot), tipping the ski results in almost no effect, and I really have to work them. On piste, with a bit of work they rail, but I would NOT be wanting to learn how to ski on them. (Off piste you need to be doing about 609 kph before they turn which somewhat limits their usefulness in Europe...)
Funny that we all seem to agree on that. Just as well we're not marketing puffers for ski companies, eh?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, well that's certainly added to my vocabulary. And not necessarily in a good way. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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My head jimis dont like turning nearly flexed a tree once 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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... theres an awful lot of technical stuff here ... maybe I can clarify a bit ...
We need to make a distinction between the perfect model of how we should ski that some people are talking about, and the virtualy universal fault of lack of ankle flex that the instructors are talking about.
All normal skis are specificaly designed to initiate a turn from the front of the ski. That may not be how we want to ski, but that is how the manufacturers design them.
I'm no race coach, but my perception is ... racers use a cross through or cross under, and very active pressure management. This means they use less up and down movement - just watch any racer in action to see how still they are verticaly. Hence thay don't need to bend their ankles as much to remain centered, and can use a stiffer boot giving them more sensitive forward pressure control. And don't forget, most of them are actualy quite large, and all are incredibly strong.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| Just as well we're not marketing puffers for ski companies, eh? |
Outrageous homophobia!!
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Alan McGregor, I'm really, really unconvinced that skis are designed to be initiated from the front. In fact, I'd argue that given the sidecut runs past the midfoot to the tail, it's the complete opposite. Initiating the whole edge does a whole lot more than initiating the front and letting the back slide.
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DaveC, I agree with you up to a point,for a reason it just feels more nailed to dig in with the tips then as you say you need to initiate the full edge and stay centered to allow the side cut of the ski dictate the turn you want but this is all one smooth action,very simalar to riding mountain bikes. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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DaveC,
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I'm really, really unconvinced that skis are designed to be initiated from the front
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Hmmm. That may be so. But they won't ever initiate a turn from the back. You need to have some pressure on the shovel of the ski to start the turn. Managing the forces of the previous turn means that, without ankle flex you cannot engage the front of the ski. Without engaging the front of the ski, you won't get a clean carve at the start of the turn.
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ski, why can't you just use the whole edge with equal pressure? Not sure why they wouldn't initiate a turn from the back either, though it's far from ideal I'm sure it's doable.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| DaveC wrote: |
| ski, why can't you just use the whole edge with equal pressure? |
From personal experience loading the front of the ski with an increase of pressure makes the turn initiation a bit sharper. Are you saying this isn't the case? It's not something I do a lot of the time, although this week on fat skis I've found it's the only way to ski edge to edge when I've been on firm snow. Providing you don't overcook and unload the tails so they skid out I can't see what the problem is. Isn't it just another tool in the toolbox?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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DaveC, Look at the shape of a the ski. It's wider at the front, so that when the shovel is engaged with the snow it bends. The bend is what you need to carve. The back of the ski will then follow the front.
You can aim for equal pressure.. but the result of the previous turn is that you will be on the back of the ski. You won't be able to start a clean turn without moving forwards along the ski. You won't be able to move forwards along the ski without flexing your ankles.
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| DaveC wrote: |
| ski, why can't you just use the whole edge with equal pressure? Not sure why they wouldn't initiate a turn from the back either, though it's far from ideal I'm sure it's doable. |
Yep sure is - I dislike it but I actually can initiate a turn from and aft position. I can also do it from centred or fore position.
You might want to think about the flex of the ski and how it varies from tip to tail, as well as thinking about the edge...
Initiating a turn fore balanced does not mean you don't engage the edge anywhere else than the tip - it just means you apply a bit more pressure to the front of your foot than you do when completely centred - weight distributed in what feel to be spread along the arch is actually almost certainly 50% carried on the heel area and the rest spread across the transverse arch - this is how we normally distribute when we stand and what will feel 'centred'.
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You know it makes sense.
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| ski wrote: |
. You won't be able to start a clean turn without moving forwards along the ski. |
You can - it is just sooooooo much easier when you start the turn in a fore position... especially when the snow is 'firm' and the pitch steeper
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar, I'm not arguing it doesn't work - I'm trying to work out which is more efficient - which I'm thinking of as faster and "cleaner". Mainly because every what CSIA type I've talked to about this has said, doesn't mesh with what a lot of ski marketing and skiers talk about
ski, so the shovel doesn't bend first in symmetrical skis? I don't follow the logic of the first paragraph at all... and the second doesn't really make sense either, flexing in any joint to remain in balance in transitions has no relation to initiation with a fore movement.
little tiger, that's interesting because it's probably the fine line in the debate - I imagine in most people's higher end skiing, they balance just in front of the midfoot on the balls since standing exactly in the middle of the boot is difficult with momentum, and the turning of the foot against the line of travel is going to put lateral forces through the toes of your foot more than the heel due to the lever arm, so feeling pressure and balancing against it there makes sense. So, a tiny bit fore to initiate turns that can be increased by flexing forwards to load/grip the shovel more and displace the tail a little more to alter turn shape. Which kind of fits with my idea of how it should happen, but modifying the fore/aft balance by flexing the ankle brings the pivot point forwards too and sharpens the initiation of the turn... which is why I'm still a bit confused why the flexing the ankles to initiate is such a popular thing to talk about.
...I think all of that made sense?
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Poster: A snowHead
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DaveC, I've been working on clean carved arc-2-arc turns on steeper pitches the last 2 days...
As I've said I can initiate cleanly from fore, centred or aft positions... BUT... on the steeper pitches I tend to stay centred rather than commit to the fore movement and this makes it harder to keep the turns really clean on harder snow with the steeper slope...
Why? ummm I don't know - I just know it is that much easier if I really DRIVE forward - (and especially with the inside hip...)
I think it may simply be that I feel that strong pull into the turn and it sets me up well...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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DaveC, That was a description from a biomechanist I know...
A race coach (ex-WC and FIS I believe) that we ran a clinic with recently spent a good 20mins explaining why the pivot point of your foot should be directly under the ankle joint and hence you should stand balanced there (which matches if 50% of your weight is on your heel in a normal neutral stance)...
He is VERY adamant about this(he is also a PSIA examiner and trained instructors in NZ IIRC) for exactly the same reason as your CSIA 4's - pivoting from further forward tends to make the tails wash out!
I find that as long as you are making arc-to-arc turns the fore move to start the turn gives no tendency to skid. I can see how in a steered turn you would need to not go too far if you want a clean initiation.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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A very interesting thread. Thanks DaveC.
My (quick) two penneth as I have to get to work...
I had a session with Jaz Lamb last season on fore-aft balance. (For those of you who don't know Jaz he's one of the few BASI Trainers who can assess people at ISTD level. He's a beautifully composed skier.)
On the musings of where your weight should be and when, Jaz made a simple observation about the front of boot mentality.
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| "Why on earth would you only want to ski on half the length of the ski?" |
From this, and other inputs from reading and BASI Trainers, I'll offer:
- skis work most efficiently when you use the whole length of the ski
- to maximise the use of the length of the ski then your centre of mass needs to be of the centre of the sidecut radius
- moving your centre of mass forwards will put more pressure on the tips and lighten pressure on the tails - and vice versa
- pressure on the tips tends to make initiation cleaner and faster, but if you stay forward during the whole turn then lightness of pressure on the tails will tend to cause them to skid out
- pressure on the tails tends to make initiation slower and messier, but it can be helpful at the end of turn - particularly on stiff skis - where extra tail pressure can help "push" the skis through the end of the turn, creating "pop", which helps with transition
- Ron Le Master points out that racers tend to initiate forwards and progressively move their weight onto their heels through the turn - this gives them quicker/cleaner initiation and then uses a pop onto the tails to push the skis through and help turn transition
- if you're travelling at high speed then the force of the turn will be pushing you backwards. As a result you'll need to feel like you're constantly moving forwards - just to stay centred
- what really matters is where your centre of mass is - not what you feel on your shin
- pressure on the tongue of the boot is used as a proxy for trying to get clients to move their centre of mass forwards...
- ...the problem being that pressure on the tongue of the boot is a really poor proxy for proper management of your centre of mass - you can have pressure on the tongue of the boot and still have a centre of mass behind the arch of the foot. Your heels and shin make a really nice counter-lever. (Incidentally, good telemarkers tend to use this principle to bend their boot bellows.)
- (I see a great many recreational skiers with flexed ankles, but back bottoms back.)
- ski boots severely limit ankle flex range
- the colder it is then the less you can flex a ski boot - and vice versa
- the faster you go, the greater the forces and the more you flex a ski boot - and vice versa
- in a ski boot you have a very limited range of ankle flex. It increases at higher speeds, but (IMHO) most recreational skiers are in ski boots that are far too stiff for them and can't flex at the speeds they're travelling
- (I recently had a day skiing less than well when, in temperatures of -30, I couldn't flex my race boots - try as I might - at anything other than hooning speed.)
- hip flex, and control of whether the hip angle is open or closed, is typically a much bigger factor in getting the centre of mass in the right place and keeping pressure on the ski correctly...
- ...as is arm carriage (arms are much heavier than they look!)
- if you get your centre of mass forwards of centre then your ankles tend to flex more
IMHO ankle flex is a consequence of - not a driver of - proper CoM management.
I largely agree with the thrust of what DaveC is saying.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| meandrew wrote: |
| bend,bend,bend YOUR BLOODY KNEEEEEEESSSSS. |
+1
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Nice post FlyingStantoni. What you have said makes a lot of sense IMHO. Good work!
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I used to lean forward too much, relying on the boot for support, I wasn't skiing centered. Skiing with my boots undone really showed up how much I was relying on the front of the boot for support. I spent the best part of 3 solid days some years ago skiing around with boots undone, still do it occasionally, just to check I'm still feeling the center of the boot. A great drill for me, surprising what you can ski with boots undone after a bit of practise.
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DaveC,
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so the shovel doesn't bend first in symmetrical skis? I don't follow the logic of the first paragraph at all... and the second doesn't really make sense either, flexing in any joint to remain in balance in transitions has no relation to initiation with a fore movement.
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Yes the shovel does bend first..but only if it is being pressed in to the snow... which you can't achieve without flexing your ankles...
I don't understand your second point... as the skis go through the fall line, they will accelerate. This will cause the ankle to extend - moving you backwards along the length of the ski. To move fowards again, so that the shovel of the ski can be engaged you have to flex the ankles again.
I am not suggesting that you should remain on the front of the boot throughout the whole turn, but equally I don't see how you can start a turn efficiantly without re-centering yourself along the length of the ski, and that's not possible without ankle flex.
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To pressure or not to pressure.
I like to have a mental image of what is supposed to be happening however unlikely it is. Forget for the moment what you say when trying to correct faults and assume physiotherapy has fixed any physical limitation of joint movement. The day has come and you are about to attempt the test technique. Hard packed snow, gates set widely across the piste.
Are you aiming going to go down weight centered over the middle of the ski the whole way, or do the Ron McMaster thing, CoG in front of middle of foot and pressurising front of ski at turn initiation, then moving CoG back through the turn ?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ski, I think you need to go skiing and see if you can replicate what you're talking about. I can make entire turns without flexing my ankles, with the tip and tail being pressed into the snow (ie fore/aft centred). You're talking about ankle flexion to stay centered on the ski though, and I'm talking about an intentional ankle flex to start a turn. Obviously you need to bend joints to stay in balance, including the ankles, when faced with momentum/friction/gravity
stiffdrink, gates set widely enough, I don't see why you'd want to bring the centre of mass ahead of the base of support. If there's impetus to get a sharper turn, sure.
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The shovel is the front of the ski, the bit that starts the turn first, the bit that passes through the turn earliest, the bit that bends first. The shovel is wider in order to help it do its job of turn initiation. If you put pressure on the front of the ski at initiation it will help the shovel do its job. To pressure the shovel you have to press the front of your boots down which will lever the whole system tip-downwards. It is possible to do this with the sole of your foot rather than your shin but much easier with your shin unless your boots are undone or very soft. Whichever you choose your weight has to be fore. If you prefer not to give it any extra help and just stay centred the shovel will still be able to do a job because it's wider. But if you want a quicker entry edged turn, tighter at the top of the turn, then the best way is usually to press forwards on the cuff of the boot.
There's usually no need to move your weight aft during a turn. It'll go back quite naturally.
People who are over dorsi-flexed have to sit back to stay balanced. But for most skiers with ankle issues the problem is lack of dorsi-flexion, so either they ski with weight aft, or they sit back and bend forwards at the waist.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| ski wrote: |
| Yes the shovel does bend first..but only if it is being pressed in to the snow... which you can't achieve without flexing your ankles... |
I'm sorry, I don't/can't agree with that.
Keep your ankles rigid, bend at the hips, move your CoM forwards and you will pressure the front of the ski. It's simple physics.
It's nothing to do with the ankles.
Will it look good? No.
But simple physics can't be cheated here. (We're not into the quantum stuff.)
Will it be better/more effective with the ankles flexed? Hell yes.
But can't be achieved...no.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| To pressure the shovel you have to press the front of your boots down which will lever the whole system tip-downwards. It is possible to do this with the sole of your foot rather than your shin but much easier with your shin unless your boots are undone or very soft. |
Sorry, but there's a straight contradiction here.
You can pressure the front of the ski and have zero interaction with the front of your boots.
Again, it's simple physics. Centre of Mass in front of the base of support means pressure on the tips.
You can't cheat physics.
It's worth saying that I don't want to be the Stadler to DaveC's Waldorf of the pressure on the front of the boot...
...but to present it as "the only way" is simply wrong.
And, frankly, not how really good skiers ski...
No skiers on 50 degree pitches with "fall and die" consequences hang off the front of their boots. Why? Because they don't want the consequences.
Great bump skiers maintain their body position at 90 degrees to gravity. Not the fall line. And yet they pressure the front of their skis.
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legs are suspension they only work when you are in control,if you dont flex you dont ski properly,edges only work when you presure them in the right place at the right time any other time you lose grip and speed if not applied properly.I think this is dangly bits as we all know how and when to apply preasure to turn and we all do do it in the same way its just how do you teach people how ankles are part of the bodies suspension full stop and if you get people to get there head round the central position you get the flow through the body pivot for sl;ower turns,centre for carving.Speed makes you more aggressive in a forward stance in that it makes you hunker down but that does not mean your centering is any different its just your in a more forward position when traveling at speed it also depends on slope incliation its quite boring to go on about it really.
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You know it makes sense.
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
It's worth saying that I don't want to be the Stadler to DaveC's Waldorf of the pressure on the front of the boot...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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DaveC, you cant say you preasure your tips off piste,in powder it just dont work.
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Poster: A snowHead
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DaveC,I hope you ski with shin angels with your 196 lhasa `s 38 m radius ya shins must be killin ya 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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meandrew, I'm still none the wiser to what you're actually saying  There's a skill called "pivoting" that people often combine with "edging" to turn a ski. Just because modern skis mean you can cheat doesn't mean you should...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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meandrew, ummm... sure, you can pressure them in powder. Just don't pressure them too much!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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FlyingStantoni, no contradiction whatsoever. If your CoM is forwards you are pressing the front of your boot, whether you're on the front of the cuff (shin) or the front of the box (sole).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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slikedges, no you aren't. Stick your bum back then crank over at the hips. CoM forwards, calves firmly planted on the boot's spoiler.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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DaveC, as your feet are in the boot, any pressure has to be transmitted through some part of the boot. If you are fore, this may be the cuff of the boot where your shins are doing the pressing, or if you want to be on the spoiler whilst doing it, the box of the boot where the sole of the forefoot is doing the pressing. Either will help get the shovel engaged as in both situations you are still fore. If for some reason you don't want to put the extra work in in getting fore to accentuate the action of the shovel that's a valid choice in many situations but that doesn't detract from what is inherent in most ski designs.
If I'm not skiing very actively I'll just set the ski on a bit of edge push a little through the centre and an effortless turn results. If I'm skiing more actively I'll try to get my CoM forwards and I'll feel more on my shins and my forefoot. If I'm going hell for leather I make a strong forward move and really press forwards on my shins and forefoot. I could just go for a big angle whilst centred or try to get fore whilst limiting ankle flexion but what would the point be? I'd want to be doing all I can to get the ski engaged quickly, not contriving to artificially handicap myself. One of the main reasons race and expert level boots have a stiff flex is exactly so that pressure from ankle dorsiflexion is transmitted.
edit for minor grammatical errors...and for emphasis
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 18-02-11 10:00; edited 2 times in total
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So there's some odd stuff being said in this thread, and it almost seems like there are a number of debates going on at once. I don't think anyone is advocating crushing the front of your boots all the time, but conversely some people seem to be keen on not flexing your ankles at all, which I would say isn't a great idea. Also for these debates to work, we need to be clear about what sort of turn we are talking about, and the mechanics we are using for these turns. As I discussed in my first post, the amount of ankle flexion required for a high performance turn in moguls is going to be very different to a basic parallel turn an intermediate skier is making.
I would still say that dorsiflexion at the start of any turn is beneficial though, yes of course it's possible to ski with your weight on your heels, but why would you want to? Has anyone got anything negative to say about dorsiflexion at the start of the turn? If you want your CoM to move inside the turn, surely being forwards at initiation is essential, because forwards equals inside.
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And if you move foward you need something to lean on, difficult if boot too soft or boot has too much forward lean. Which is where we came in!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I don't know if 'something to lean on' is really what you need at the start of the turn, if we are talking about a high performance medium radius turn, my ankles are flexing in part to absorb the pressure coming out of the old turn and in part to allow my CoM to move down the hill into the new turn. I'm not 'leaning' against anything or feeling much pressure until the new apex, where I'm not really dorsiflexing anymore. I get your point about stiffness/flex, but I thought this thread was about whether dorsiflexion was a useful movement, not what boots we need?
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Many moons ago there was a similar thread on Epicski. Many were saying the pressure during the turn shouldn't be fore or aft but on the inside cuff (3 or 9 o clock).
My touring boots have two positions for forward lean (20 & 25 deg) but I'm unsure why - anybody know? While trying to work out which position was better I tried to balance on a (fore/aft) balance board it was amazing how little pressure was put on the cuff.
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FAQ
