 Poster: A snowHead
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Sheet happens, people make mistakes. This event has changed many people's lives for the worse and my thoughts go out to them. Arguing on the internet ain't going to make their life better, especially at the moment.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hurtle, stoatsbrother, as Gideon has redacted his posts would it be an idea to do the same with yours that quote him?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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DB, hear hear
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Steve Sparks, done.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Steve Sparks, With the exception of one post - I think he deleted rather than retracted. He also had implied that I had defamed him.
If he chooses to MTFU and apologise for this - and for clearly impying the guide of the most recent slide had poor judgement - I will happily edit the quotes out. In the meantime I think it is clear that I believe the points he was making have absolutely no basis in fact.
His posts may still be out there in cached versions on search engines...
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stoatsbrother, I honestly think it would be better to edit - as I have done - to remove his actual allegation from easy viewing, whilst still leaving your opinion on his post intact. Just a thought.
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Stoatsbrother, if you have an email I will respond to your posts, as I think you are misrepresenting my comments, but I do not wish to be involved in a public discussion.
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Gideon, you can use the private messaging facility on here if you wish - top right hand corner of your screen.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Gideon wrote: |
| Stoatsbrother, if you have an email I will respond to your posts, as I think you are misrepresenting my comments, but I do not wish to be involved in a public discussion. |
I read what you posted last night. The implication of what you wrote was very clear and there has been no misrepresentation of it. Maybe you misrepresented yourself? In which case the thread is open to you to reclarify.
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Hurtle, PJSki, indeed.
I have redacted the elements of his posts that I quoted which most clearly imply blame, but have kept a copy of the original text for future reference.
Gideon, You have a bit of a nerve there. On an open web forum you have implied I defamed you, and clearly implied poor decision making on the part of the guide in the large slide. I have kept a record of your posts if you wish to debate this in the open on this forum.
I suspect your usual guide would have been mortified to see what you posted, especially after his recent experience.
I am going to take your withdrawal of your posts as an admission that you are wrong and are apologising and wish to draw the discussion to a close. Feel free to disagree, if you wish to open the debate again, and discuss what you said openly on this forum 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Stoatsbrother Please send my posts via the message service.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Gideon, I have just saved an image of the first page after you deleted your posts but before I redacted mine. I am happy to repost the bits you redacted if that is what you want. But I think that you should recognise that the other posters here - including one lawyer - felt your posts were at best unfortunate. There is no point in continuing the argument in private. If you are a bloke who cannot say publicly when you get something like this wrong, I would not want to correspond, or to ski with you.
On Wayne's blog - the following appears (below
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Now for the tragic news. There was a massive avalanche in the Fornet today and four skiers lost their lives. I don’t feel it’s ‘Alpine’s’ place to comment on the details and everyone at Alpine is feeling for those involved
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(I know the people personally who were involved in yesterday’s horrible avalanche and Alpine will leave it to Henry to report about it on his site.) |
I think you should take your tone from that and let things lie. 
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You know it makes sense.
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erm,sorry Im staying out off this.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sat 15-01-11 1:46; edited 2 times in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Let's get some perspective. I am 70 years old and have skied with Topski, Pat Zimmer,Didier and the other guides for more than 20 years often with my daughter. This is the first tragedy for Topski in 30 years. One of the reasons I ski off piste is because, with a guide, it is safer than on piste. Pat himself has been in hospital with head injuries having been hit by a holiday skier on piste. My wife 5 years ago on a blue slope in Val was hit by an English snowboarder and nearly lost her leg. She now walks with difficulty. We won £30,000 in an English court against this guy. Go into the medical centre at Val at 11 am and just see the carnage from on piste skiing which happens every day. I shall continue to ski off piste with Topski and if given the opportunity with Didier. Condolences to all involved in this tragic event.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Speedcoe, welcome to snowHeads.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Speedcoe, welcome and you raise a very valid point here ....
off piste is still safer without a guide I suspect! especially during the school hols.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| meandrew wrote: |
| The more extreme we want to get the higher the risks, some of us more than others and we pay to do this in a extreme enviroment the mountains climbers die,mountain bikers die,kayakers die the more popular a sport gets the more people die as people want a bigger buzz.I do it,climb ,ski,and bike but as with every sport there are risk`s but you have question yourself really on if you are willing to die for your sport or hobbie and maybe it will stop the conveyor belt of guides trying to make a living but risking peoples lives to pay the bills.its the nature of extreme sports they hurt you when they go wrong. |
Thank you Aristotle, but a day out with a guide isn't classed as an extreme sport. This is a highly unusual and tragic event and the odds of it happening are probably near to 1,000,000/1.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Speedcoe, welcome to snowHeads, and thank you for your logical perspective. Thank you, too, PJSki, posts such as these allay my more irrational fears (though they do nothing to remedy my woeful lack of expertise and knowledge - which are clearly key to staying safe.)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thoughts are with the friends and family of the deceased.
As mentioned bySpeedcoe, Top ski are an excellent and very professional outfit in my experience. I have skied with them on several occasions. The guides do pay a lot of attention to safety, though one thing to be aware of is that the majority are qualified and very experienced ski school instructors with a lot of experience in the area relatively few of them are qualified high mountain guides.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| meandrew wrote: |
| The more extreme we want to get the higher the risks, some of us more than others and we pay to do this in a extreme enviroment the mountains climbers die,mountain bikers die,kayakers die the more popular a sport gets the more people die as people want a bigger buzz.I do it,climb ,ski,and bike but as with every sport there are risk`s but you have question yourself really on if you are willing to die for your sport or hobbie and maybe it will stop the conveyor belt of guides trying to make a living but risking peoples lives to pay the bills.its the nature of extreme sports they hurt you when they go wrong. |
Thank you Aristotle, but a day out with a guide isn't classed as an extreme sport. This is a highly unusual and tragic event and the odds of it happening are probably near to 1,000,000/1. |
from my little knowledge Val d has quite a high number of deaths every season due to either avalanches or any other type of skiing related accident http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2008/feb/09/skiing I think the sport in general is quite extreme depending who you are and where you ski.I dont know of any other hobby then that kills as many people a year I would call that extreme if thirty people a year died.As for the odds being 1,000,000/1 of it happening mmmm,if it snows and you go skiing you run a risk and people want to ski fresh dumps of snow I think you cut the odds considerably when you put in bad judgement.http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2006/mar/12/wintersportsholidays.wintersports.observerescapesection people can not know every thing about snow so you have risk no matter who you are.
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meandrew,
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I dont know of any other hobby then that kills as many people a year
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Climbing? BASE Jumping? Motorcycle Racing?
Certainly all of these and others have higher risk per user day.
If you really want to know what sports do have extreme risk - look at insurance premiums. Off-piste skiing with a guide does not need any weighting on many policies. You should see the length of the list of the ones that do...
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meandrew,
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I dont know of any other hobby then that kills as many people a year
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When U don´t Know, don´t say nothing, motorcycling is a hobby? and it kills a lot more per userday than skiing
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
meandrew,
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I dont know of any other hobby then that kills as many people a year
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Climbing? BASE Jumping? Motorcycle Racing?
Certainly all of these and others have higher risk per user day.
If you really want to know what sports do have extreme risk - look at insurance premiums. Off-piste skiing with a guide does not need any weighting on many policies. You should see the length of the list of the ones that do... |
and as for those sports they are extreme sports so you will expect a high degree of risk im not saying there isnt more dangerous extreme sports  .
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| T Bar wrote: |
Thoughts are with the friends and family of the deceased.
As mentioned bySpeedcoe, Top ski are an excellent and very professional outfit in my experience. I have skied with them on several occasions. The guides do pay a lot of attention to safety, though one thing to be aware of is that the majority are qualified and very experienced ski school instructors with a lot of experience in the area relatively few of them are qualified high mountain guides. |
ski instructors teach you how to ski mountain guides guide you up mountains simple.I agree your chances with a guide are dramaticly reduced with a guide but as this latest accident show it can still happen to the best of them,which is tough.i think skiing has a massive death/ injury tally per season for a pastime in general,extreme or not.if you factored in all types limb breaks,back injuries,neck and people who are permanatly disabled through the sport it would be a huge number.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sat 15-01-11 10:51; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| meandrew wrote: |
| ski instructors teach you how to ski mountain guides guide you up mountains simple. |
That is slightly (very much) over-simplifying things...
Ski Instructors can 'guide' you offpiste (with exception of glaciated terrain & terrain requiring technical climbing equipment), Mountain Guides can 'instruct' you in climbing/mountaineering techniques (though their remit does not extend to 'teaching' skiing). Both are trained & assessed on their ability to do these things.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| meandrew wrote: |
| ski instructors teach you how to ski mountain guides guide you up mountains simple. |
That's definitely the theory. For many people I think the reality has a few more shades of grey than that.
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| offpisteskiing wrote: |
| meandrew wrote: |
| ski instructors teach you how to ski mountain guides guide you up mountains simple. |
That is slightly (very much) over-simplifying things...
Ski Instructors can 'guide' you offpiste (with exception of glaciated terrain & terrain requiring technical climbing equipment), Mountain Guides can 'instruct' you in climbing/mountaineering techniques (though their remit does not extend to 'teaching' skiing). Both are trained & assessed on their ability to do these things. |
yeah your right its not that simple.sorry.
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You know it makes sense.
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who would know a mountain enviroment better an mountain guide or a ski instructor I would rather by guided by a mountain guide who can ski well. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| meandrew wrote: |
| who would know a mountain enviroment better an mountain guide or a ski instructor |
Plenty of ski instructors know more than enough terrain and have good enough snow skills to guide their clients and keep them safe. I've had quite a few days or half days with ski instructors where there has not been a single bit of instruction and we've found some great snow.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| meandrew wrote: |
| who would know a mountain enviroment better an mountain guide or a ski instructor I would rather by guided by a mountain guide who can ski well. |
Can't really get my head around the above.
Ultimately, I'm not sure that is really a question.
Not sure I've ever skied with a guide who couldn't ski.
Time for me to go for a dump.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| PJSki wrote: |
| Not sure I've ever skied with a guide who couldn't ski. |
I've skied with a guide who didn't ski especially well. Well enough, but not brilliant. I've also seen a refresher course being run for UIAGM guides who did more work on the mountaineering side rather than skiing, and some of those didn't ski well. at all. I was pretty shocked until over dinner one of them explained that he hardly ever skied with clients, it just wasn't his business model.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I would like to maybe extend this discussion. I have skied off-piste around Tignes / Val d'Isere with someone who was an instructor and now has the hard earned mountain guide qualification. He is a family man like me, with children, and I am happy to accept his judgement balancing the safety of himself, myself and my family with the enjoyment we want to get out of a sport we love. Thats my call and I accept that he cannot know or predict everything and there is always the possibility that something unexpected will happen. In Val d'Isere something unexpected did happen, that guide did not expect that snow to slide and it did.
For me personally, as a civil engineer who has worked on all sorts of construction from high bridges to tunnels to big excavations in the mixed up geology of the UK you, irrespective of all the calculations, designs and reports you read, develop a feel for what is probably, maybe definetly, safe.
But with snow, I have talked to the guide I mentioned above, I have read as much as I can, I have attended things like Henry's Avalanche Talks and I am always trying to understand more but I think snow is so unlike any other material that even if you have some massive computer program, which I assume major resorts have, mapping the topography, weather patterns, snowfall history etc. then you will still never reach the levels of certainty that you can with other materials.
For me I would like to see much more prominence given to the results of the investigations, which I assume there is, into these sort of events so that we can all learn more about why that amount of snow slid, on that sort of slope at that time.
Unfortunately, and I am as a guilty as anyone here, when the summer comes it does not really seem like a priority to be searching out the reports of things that happened months ago.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| meandrew wrote: |
| http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/snowandski/france/val-disere/8254438/Val-dIsere-avalanche-is-it-safe-to-ski-off-piste.html I think the last section off this is what I was trying to say earlier about any sport there are risks no matter who you are. |
| Quote: |
| Experienced skiers will tell you that the best way to survive an avalanche is not to get caught in one. The force of a slide of this magnitude – it was 2,500 feet long – is so enormous that at its maximum velocity the shock wave of air that precedes it destroys trees and anything else in its path even before the snow reaches them. Peter hardy |
So, according to Hardy, this was a powder avalanche rather than a slab? Does anyone know for sure what type this was?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| So, according to Hardy, this was a powder avalanche rather than a slab? Does anyone know for sure what type this was? |
The photo and video I saw of the slope after the slide didn't look like a single point release, looked like a typical (full depth) slab avalanche.
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| Quote: |
looked like a typical (full depth) slab avalanche.
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rob@rar, have complete right,,
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
| So, according to Hardy, this was a powder avalanche rather than a slab? Does anyone know for sure what type this was? |
The photo and video I saw of the slope after the slide didn't look like a single point release, looked like a typical (full depth) slab avalanche. |
Yes, that's what I thought too.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Quote:
Experienced skiers will tell you that the best way to survive an avalanche is not to get caught in one. The force of a slide of this magnitude – it was 2,500 feet long – is so enormous that at its maximum velocity the shock wave of air that precedes it destroys trees and anything else in its path even before the snow reaches them. Peter hardy
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I always thought this type of high speed powder avalanche was pretty rare in the Alps
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livetoski, they are. That's a slab. From the description, weather conditions and the number of fatalities, it sounds like it was pretty wet and heavy as well.
I think a couple of important observations flow from the posted photos and characteristics of this terrible event but this is not the right thread in which to get into them.
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