Which forms of skiing are expendable, if we're to reduce CO2 emissions?

A snowHead

ise, more likely is that the number of flights into and out of the UK would reduce in favour of somewhere like France or Holland

A snowHead

D G Orf, that is a fair point indeed, it might be economic to move hubs to locations with better duty rates. The reality of this is that when a plane lands it's basically got to refuel if it wants to take off with any other load.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Sleeper Train = excellent, quick and fun if going somewhere with a station. Pity it doesn't really seem to exist any more.

Car = very convenient - expensive and tiring if only one driver

Air = cheapest option, but as long as everything else and a horrible experience on a Saturday.

Bike = go for it Stanton, but not practical for most skiers.

Solution? no idea! Confused

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easiski, Interestingly the Germans, Dutch and Swiss have colaberated in recent years and made huge advances in sleeper trains city night line offer 6 and 4 berth liegewagon/couchettes or in more comfort in 1, 2 and 4 berth cabins with running water, finally if you have the cash in 1 or 2 berth cabin complete with full ensuite WC and Shower in a double deck train, sadly just one of these trains serves any ski resorts the closest most get is Zurich, but one does go from Amsterdam (20.05) to Garmisch-Partenkirchen (09.27) at the weekend, even worse ther's no easy way to connect to this service from the UK but we can but hope for the future wink

Certainly they're much nicer than the old Sleepers and Couchettes typically running out of Paris.

P.S all luggage including winter sports equipment is carried free of charge but for safety skis etc travel in the baggage van

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D G Orf, Back in the dark ages when I was a DHO trainee we always got the couchette train from London. Ferry across and then picked up the couchettes at Calais. Overnight to Basel, change trains to Bern, change to Interlaken, change to Lauterbrunnen and then the final change to Wengen. This sounds a llot of hassle, but you booked your luggage through and picked it up at Lauterbrunnen - how civilised is that? NehNeh

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easiski, back in the dark ages when I was a small child there used to be a couchette from Calais to Interlaken Ost no changes ! now that was civilised wink

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Do you really believe in climate change caused by carbon emissions? (and I'm not saying that I don't - just unconvinced)
'Climate change' is a natural phenomenon - has occurred since the year dot. We weren't all driving our 4x4s when the ice (age) melted.

After all it is free

erica2004, I'm inclined to believe that it's climate change possibly accelerated or altered by man made pollution, from what I recall of the various facts and figures the suggestion is that the rate of climate change is much higher than previously recorded. Certainly it can't hurt for people to at least make a little effort in one way or another to help the enviroment

erica2004, too right. Climate change is nothing but constant. As a theory, the "greenhouse effect" is far from proven. The climate is too chaotic, complex and multivariately non-linear for us to understand completely quite yet.

However, D G Orf, absolutely proven is that (amongst others) Amazonian deforestation, "fossil" fuel consumption on a massive scale and human despoilation of the only planet we happen to be able to occupy are Not Good Things.

So, while Alpine Skiing as we know and love it is a tiny element of the problem, we should at least ensure that we minimise our damage. So, do we need that new chairlift? Is it as efficient as it can be (both in terms of energy efficiency and simple uplift efficiency)? Nuclear power not oil or coal. Do we really need to spend huge energy pumping water into snow cannons? if it doesn't snow naturally, enjoy the mountains some other way (that's not too hard is it?)

Surely we should, as mountain loving people, do all we can to ensure our sport is minimally damaging and that our respective governments do all they can to reduce environmentally damaging activities.

And can we please get Eurostars from London to Geneva? Can't be that hard can it?

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David Murdoch, Your point about snow cannons is valid, but who's going to be the resort who stops first? No-one would come except in mid-winter, and holiday skiers need to recognise that many people depend for their livelihoods on the winter ski-ing season. We do, therefore, need to extend it.

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Not that it's an excuse for inaction, but I spent a big chunk of last week in the company of a Dutch physicist and occasional author on economic and environmental issues (Peter Peeters), and although he has some fascinating and original ideas - eg on the future eclipse of capitalism! - I wasn't exactly reassured. The fact that the West's share of the world's economy is likely to be turned upside down in the space of a few decades makes our feeble attempts to undo any damage done to date appear a touch insignificant. The massive growth that is going to take place will make the current situation seem like Shangri-la Sad

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You know it makes sense.

Unfortunately I didn't see the article in the Independent but I was told that it said that CO2 emissions from flying England / Greece were equivalent to 1.4 years of average heat, light & car use (?). This is scary and makes it seem one of the most important things that the world should be trying to agree on. Can the future administrations in the US after Bush really pretend there is no human agency in climate change (or no climate change) much longer? A worldwide agreement to heavily tax aviation fuel must surely be fought for, even if it is not going to be immediately realisable.

20 years ago, when I used package companies much more, going on the overnight train option to Bourg St Maurice was either the same price as flying or cheaper (£10 cheaper with Crystal). And you got 2 extra days of skiing (as you still do, of course).
What is the case now?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

snowball, I would have thought that administrations in the USA have two options with regard to the Kyoto agreement;
a) Sign up knowing that there is no chance of implementing it in the USA in the forseeable future.
b) Refuse to sign up knowing that there is no chance of implementing it in the USA in the forseeable future.
All the comments and discusions are just smoke screens around those two options.

A snowHead

john wells, and the decision on whether it is or isn't implemented in the US dwarfs into relative insignificance given that Asian emissions are quite likely to be five times those of the West by the middle of the 21st century.

A snowHead

PG, assuming the West remains more-or-less static (for the sake of argument), I wonder if enough economically-exploitable fossil fuel deposits will be found to enable that factor of 5 to come to pass.

brian

David Goldsmith, given that you seem to have visited every resort in the known universe multiple times, I reckon we could achieve snowheads emissions reduction targets just by tying you to a chair Laughing

Then the rest of us can get on with it with a clear conscience wink

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laundryman, not for long, at any rate. In the meantime what are the odds on WWIII as economically challenged, heavily indebted America sees its supremacy inexorably slipping away? We could be looking back on the relatively peaceful days of the US as dominant economic power and self-appointed world policeman with nostalgia one day. So much for the long-term benefits of the free market if that comes to pass!

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PG, whether oil is rationed by price or any other mechanism, some nations will feel aggrieved at the outcome when it is truly running out, and the results may not be pretty. The benefit of rationing by price (the free market) is that, as a commodity becomes scarce, it will tend to gravitate to those who can put it to best use. For example, I would contend that the world is better off with Britain getting more that it's "fair share" of oil than (say) Paraguay - which has a similar population - because we can produce more output for a given input, as things stand.

As for America's supremacy, it will slip away one day, but I wouldn't bet on its demise just yet. China may overtake it in absolute terms, perhaps within a generation, but the richest per capita countries (other than resource-rich micro-states) have always been those whose people have the maximum freedom to exploit new ideas, and there the US wins hands down. India could be one to watch.

Anyway, the US (and Europe) should be bunging lots of resources at improving the economic efficiency of renewables, then selling the technology to the rest of the world.

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An interesting BBC article on cooling effect of volcanoes. As well as direct blocking out of sunlight (which lasts a couple of years for a big eruption), resultant acid rain depresses methane (a greenhouse gas) emissions from wetlands liek bogs and padi fields. The effect is reckoned to last a decade or so.

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I'm happy to give up water skiing!

After all it is free

what are you all worrying about.. life is too short.. when you are young and skint you hitch hike there, then get a bus, then ludicrous off peak flights that leave at 4 am .. then when you are older n richer you drive down in a 3 litre fuel munching super car.. its the way of the world.. we can all bleat on about saving the planet but everyone will take what is the most convienient depending on what they can afford.. if you are really worried about global warming then vote for new nuclear power stations on the sites of the old ones, and build enoughto supply the entire countries power needs, and enough to sell the surplus to northern europe.. then we can all drive 5 litre mercs knowing that the real damage (domestic consumption) now gives off zero co2.. ok there will be a problem with nuclear waste but that can be buried neatly for the next 10 or 12 thousand years before we run out of space.. if humanity is still here and they havn't worked out how to deal with it by then then they desrve everything they get.. remeber the internal combustion engine was a solution to great big piles of horse poo-poo.. im sure they will manage to think of something by then.. in the meantime im going to the alps 4 times next year . flying and driving and the enviroment can fk off

CANV CANVINGTON, I think that's just selfish and short-sighted. This will affect my children and grandchildren as well as yours. We are storing up problems for 10 to 20 years down the line. If we all start doing something now then it will be relatively painless whereas if we wait until the problem is around for all to see the stuff that we will each have to do will be really hard.

BTW friends of the earth don't say that you shouldn't go skiing but that you shouldn't fly (see Save Cash and Save the Planet http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/000719420X/qid%3D1118763801/026-7151357-9420460?tag=amz07b-21 which is an excellent book). Also they advocate a little by little approach to lifestyle change taking many years to get to a more sustainable lifestyle.

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Chris Reed, unfortunately there are far to many people who share the attitudes expressed in CANV CANVINGTON's, post.

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Chris Reed, Whatever Friends of The Earth say, or any other body for that matter is not the whole issue.

I would suspect that the 'environmental' bodies and others know that they will make greater impact by attacking a global issue like Air Travel rather than skiiing. But are you suggesting that Skiing is environmentaly friendly? It could be argue that skiing/boarding/winter sports ( particularly that involving travel like most of us Brits) is one of the most unnecessary environemtally and ecologically unfriendly activities there is - at least Air Traval can be justified on grounds other than personal indulgence.

I find it strange that so many of us here adopt what I consider a hypocritical position on the environment and ecology yet I am yet to hear of anyone suggesting reduction in or termination of their Winter Sport activities on those grounds.

D G Orf, Unfortunately anyone skiing is either like him or hypotrical ... or very, very confused Sad

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eEvans, I'm not suggesting that skiing is environmentally friendly. Whilst going on a ski holiday isn't ideal from an environmental perspective but to take the argument that if you ski you are bad for the environment so what the heck I'll go the whole hog, drive a 4x4, fly everywhere every day and whilst I'm at it I'll leave all my lights on when I'm out etc etc. I'm advocating that we can all do stuff to improve the outlook for the climate without making much difference to your lifestyle. Giving up things that I love doing even when I know that they are bad for the planet is a lot harder, but I may feel that I have to. Maybe it is a bit hypocritical but we are all human.

If we all got a few energy saving light bulbs, turned off TVs on standby, turned the thermostat down a few degrees, walked or cycled for short trips, shared car journeys with friends, drove at the speed limit on motorways etc we would reduce the amount of CO2 in a flash and I've heard stats that just by everyone changing two bulbs to energy saving ones you would reduce the electicity requirement by the equivalent of one coal fired power station just like that. And your quality of life isn't changed at all.

There have been people on this thread that don't believe that our CO2 usage is causing the golbal warming increase. To this I would add "do you feel lucky punk? Well do you?"

You know it makes sense.

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eEvans, I suggest that the enviromental damage of skiing would depend on the type of skiing and the location, e.g crosscountry skiing is I suspect less damaging than walking the same route especially if you don't need to use a vehicle to get to the ski area. Likewise those fit souls that go ski touring will probably do very little damage.

If we're talking about resorts then yes there are enviromental consequences to skiing, lifts do damage the rock (although these days pylon base size has been reduced) and lift stations and restaurants do effect the surrounding area, likewise piste routes may be cut through woodland or disrupt wildlife near to its routes, however it would be wrong to say that they are all bad effects, buildings and lift towers add variety to the nesting sites of birds (don't forget that for hundreds of years mountain comunities have had farm buildings in the high pastures) and restaurants often provide rich pickings for the local creatures. Forested areas are often better maintained in ski areas and alpine farms which might otherwise have to shut down due to poor earnings can continue due to payments recieved from lift companies and as anyone who knows will tell you farms are often what maintain the countryside.

So what about CO2 emissions ? Well in general in the resort the biggest polluters are probably the piste bashers, most if not all the lifts will use electricity, which may or may not be produced by fossil fuel burning, nuclear power or HEP depending on country and location.

Finally we have the methods used to get to the resort, air is probably the most popular method for UK residents to get to resorts, extremely polluting (especially as it pumps out the pollution at high altitude), coaches popular at one time for their cheapness have almost disappeared, cars are still popular with families due to their carrying capacity or lastly we have the train, if they could reduce the price and up the standards it might be more popular it's certainly less polluting than any of the other forms of transport but sadly it's just too expensive

A snowHead

So far this thread (and similar ones started by David Goldsmith I believe) has had one impact on me. I am sure the intent has been to highlight very real issues but my take has been a lot closer to home.

It has made me think about how environmentally and ecologically unfriendly skiing is. I would hope that continuous highlighting of this issue and (idiotic) concepts like skiing ecology armbands do not attract the intention of those with the wherewithal and scientific knowledge to do something to my personal enjoyment.

Chris Read D G Orf, we all have our prejudices in this respect but much of what is written has been not us!! Emmissions probably are a massive issue for the planet. The facts of the matter are that individual 'wealth' is undoubtedly directly related to abuse of the planet's natural resource; we all then revert to generalised communal savings - i.e not me Jack when we see a problem (Include me in that generalisation) . Big problems need big solutions , I donn't have the answer just pointing out some of the hypocrisy.

D G Orf, You've got me thinking again !! The folllowing is argumentative , not necessarily my views!

A snowHead

eEvans, I'd definately agree with your comments on air travel, but then I prefer the train Little Angel

I think the British love affair with the car probably follows on from that of the USA, however it is not helped by the fact that the UK has a dreadful overpriced public transport system, e.g for me to get the twelve miles to my local large town by bus takes arround 2 hours and costs £3.50 or more each way, it's cheaper to drive and pay the car park fees not to mention the fact that it only takes 25 to 30 mins in the car.

I think the lift station issue seems to depend on where in the world you are, for instance where I ski in the Jungfrau Region of Switzerland they only allow one for one replacement of lifts (last completely new route was I think about 25+ years ago) in other places they seem to allow lift companies to put lifts wherever they please, I guess it depends on the power that the lift company can exert.

On the cross country aspect I guess it depend where you are some cross country routes are pisted and some not

Definately in favour of banning so called holiday homes where people occupy them for one or two weeks in the year and leave them vacent the rest of the time

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

D G Orf, I don't think that the dreaded Anglo-Saxons are alone in their "love affair" with the car. As PG points out, car usage is booming in places like China and India. The fundamental reason is that they are incredibly useful - it's not just an irrational psychosis (as slikedges, I believe, described love affairs). If we're looking to reduce dependency on car travel, it would be as well to recognise that.

As for empty holiday homes, they're more environmentally friendly than ones that have a different family flying to them, and heating them, every week!

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D G Orf, The Car in the UK - ban 'school runs', supermarket shopping car parks - replace with subsidised to local public transport for 'out-of-town) , ban travelling to work alone in the South-East, ban school runs, stop building new roads, ban school runs ( have I mentioned that ? - in France a lot less prevalent than UK , kids catch buses)

My general point here is that you have to take away the volume or demand for many of these activities. Taxing is just a government 'sop' to the real issues.

Lift Stations - Yes I accept your point, however to stop or reduce demand you need global resort agreement ---- ouch.

Holiday Homes - don't see how it is acceptable, in this context, to have any residence unoccupied for less than 45-50 weeks a year, let alone 12 weeks a year - what a waste of the World's resources ( and I'm admitting to having more than one residence)

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laundryman, no we're not alone but I'm not about to start a war with China or India over their use of cars Shocked

But I agree their incredibly useful, especially if you live in an area where you cannot rely on public transport

eEvans,

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D G Orf, I'd have held your coat. Very Happy

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laundryman, I was planning to hide behind my coat but thank you Cool

After all it is free

eEvans,

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Bourg St Maurice has been doing its bit for global warming tonight - just watched a sawmills go up in flames, with a couple of adjoining buildings as well, a couple of hundred metres from our apartments. Whole town turned out to watch, massive flames and explosions. Hope no one was hurt, but it started with a helluva big bang.

Help!!

Which forms of skiing are expendable, if we're to reduce CO2 emissions?

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