 Poster: A snowHead
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I seem to remember some survey that suggested that 90% (or something) of drivers thought they were better than average. And those who really are in the top 50% probably think they're in the top 10%!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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On the Nade Scale im grade S - sh !t hot! in reality I ski what I know I can do, and only go down the dodgy stuff if an instructor or my uncle Gareth takes me!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| richmond wrote: |
| ise, I think that GrahamN's point was not that you and PG spend your time boasting about how good you are, but that you sometimes appear patronising and inclined to sneer at skiers who are not in your respective leagues. |
Absolutely (with the possible exception of "sometimes"  ).
Guys: "Expertise" should probably in this case be read as "experience of skiing with lots and lots of people over a arge number of days", rather than "Godlike skiing ability" - although I also suspect your denials also include a degree of false modesty.
As two of the most knowledgable (or at least voluble) contributors, and with experience of your local systems you had the opportunity to give details of e.g.
1) any grading scheme run by Swiss Alpine Club or similar,
2) grading schemes maintained by ESF or other schools
3) I have no doubt that PG's comment about how there are 6yo double-golds is correct, but kids being kids they will no doubt want to get more and more advanced certificates so do those diplomas or something exist - or maybe it's just competition in different level racing leagues?
The names given to the levels is actually irrelevant, as long as everyone knows what they mean. Does anyone (old enough to vot anyway) have anything less than a gold or platinum credit card these days? When in a hire shop or guiding office you normally get asked what level of skier you are - and other than saying "yes" to "are you a good skier" you need to tell them something thy understand - so "intermediate" may be "happy but not too reliable in icy crud" or only "I can only get down a black on my bum" as long as you both know what you mean - and trying to work out whether there is anything with a wide degree of currency I see as the whole point of this thread. On the whole the guides I've met have been fairly happy with "advanced intermediate" or "advanced but not expert" as a ballpark estimate, which of course they qualify themselves once they've seen you ski for 100m or so.
I really don't think tying ability grading to equipment selection is really useful to anyone other than retailers trying to shift stock to newbies (witness some of the recent threads on newbie gear) - and therefore of minimal interest.
Once something like the SCGB scheme (which seems to fill in the S&R 7-10 levels) runs out, what comes next? Once you get to that level I suspect people head off in directions of racing or coaching. So is it FIS points (very probably not  )? BASI levels and equivalents (as in easiski's post on equivalents a few weeks ago)? Or if your tastes go to off-piste, randonee competition levels? Is there such a thing as handicap (as in golf) in any of these more sporting levels.
No, sorry guys but that would have been too much trouble, so we got a couple of sarcy posts about how cr@p those of us who don't live in the mountains really are.
BTW Plake - when you were rated Gold, did you have anyone else on the holiday that was obviously in a higher league than you? If not, and I assume it was a gold and/or purple rated holiday, then the grading scheme probably stops at about the right point. They could always add a Platinum level or something, but how many people would they ever get to a) go for it and b) assess it. I think they've stopped doing formal Gold tests now as there wasn't enough demand for it.
Michael Stocking One of the advantages of the SCGB scheme is that, if you go on one of their holidays, you are rated by the leader/guide/instructor so the subjective aspect is removed and you get a realtively objective assessment of your ability. I think attitude also plays part of the assessment, as does fitness.
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Nadenoodlee, one of the reasons I like skiing with instructors is that they're likely to take me 5% outside my comfort zone, so that it gradually expands without too many traumas, whereas on my own, depending on my mood, I'll either stay well within it or go 25% outside, thus scaring myself half to death!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Anyway, back to business
How many diff grades of beginners should there be?
1) never been on skis
2) a couple of days, can do a snowplough turn
3) a week, can do a basic swing
4) 3 weeks, can do a weak parallel? still not that comfortable on reds
How many intermediate?
5) can carve the end of the turn, comfortable but not stylish on most reds
6) trying to transfer weight early, still stemming a bit, comfortable on all reds, but not blacks or moguls
7) pretty much no stem, have learnt to carve most of the radius of the turn, but still skidding short ones too much, still losing form on blacks and learning moguls and off-piste
I reckon a lot of people just don't get better than that
Advanced? Here it gets difficult
(8 no longer lose form on most blacks in good conditions, have some fall-line control in moguls, can link enough turns off-piste that it's starting to be fun, good control in steeps but not as neat and tight as it could be
9)can ski all pisted runs pretty much in all conditions without losing form, can usually do most moguls straight down the zipper line, can ski off-piste consistently quite well in good conditions, good short carved and short swing turns
Expert? How the hell should I know? Help...Instructors, Ski Tourers, Extreme Skiers, Alpine Residents, Experienced Seasonaires
Contributions, comments, criticisms, flying daggers (or squirrels)?
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slikedges, I like the use of the word "control" in level 8, but I believe that by the time you get to level 8, you chould be able to ski steep moguls and blacks in control, varying your turn radius and technique to match the terrain.
So, here's another thought: At level 7 you should be good enough (technically) to be a level 1 instructor. At level 8, you should be close to getting level 2 certification, and when you reach level 9 skiing, then you should be able to pass level 3 instructor exams.
When it comes to experts, then you are into a whole new ball park. It is possible to be an expert downhill racer, but not an expert slalom skier. Or an expert in the terrain park, but no good on a GS course. Or great at cliff jumping, but weak when it comes to making turns on a blue run.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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GrahamN, Chill out,
so we got a couple of sarcy posts about how cr@p those of us who don't live in the mountains really are.
I know them both and I guarantee that’s not what was intended.
Maybe a little robust or brusque at times but why not………
From a cr@p skier who doesn’t live on a mountain
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Wear The Fox Hat,
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| When it comes to experts, then you are into a whole new ball park. It is possible to be an expert downhill racer, but not an expert slalom skier. Or an expert in the terrain park, but no good on a GS course. |
Don't really agree with that. Slightly less expert maybe. All racers have reached extremely high levels across the disciplines, even if some of them later concentrate on one or two. All racers spend tons of time messing around doing other stuff apart from gates. And that includes training.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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PG, Do we count the coach as more or less expert than the racer he trains ?
Edit : Assuming the racer is at the peak of his discipline.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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mesk1, Mourinho had a PE degree but as far as I am aware, he was never a footballer, or at least only an amateur one. Certainly a more expert coach, but definitely not more expert at practicing what he preaches.
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You know it makes sense.
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Oh, a thought just occurred to me. It hasn't been mentioned but the paucity of categories in the advanced/expert levels may simply be because they are so much more difficult to define. Certainly if we come up with a scale of 15 categories, it shouldn't be interpreted as a level 8 being more than half-way to being a WC skier!! I stand by the relatively large number of subcategories being distributed amongst the less skilled majority for relevance, but it is obviously nonsense that there should be so few categories in the advanced/expert levels.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 17-05-05 12:41; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| GrahamN wrote: |
No, sorry guys but that would have been too much trouble, so we got a couple of sarcy posts about how cr@p those of us who don't live in the mountains really are. |
No you didn't, I'm constantly surprised and shamed by how competent people who ski for a couple of weeks a year are.
I just happen to be p*ssed of reading rubbish from people who actually intimidate the vast majority of snowheads into silence with barely veiled boasting about the exploits and how they're level 10 skiers or whatever after a fortnight in Andorra. Reading Phil Ingles posts or Saikee about skiing in Iran is inspirational stuff, reading about a first time skiers impression of their first week is fantastic. Some of the other rubbish deserves far more sarcasm and contempt then I can manage on my own so we should all pitch in 
And there is something important at stake, taking a ski recommendation from someone who tested it for 10 minutes at the snowdome is just a waste of money.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I brought a pair of boots from S&R about a year ago an on the ability scale I was on the lower grades as I haven't done any snow skiing for a few years and the grading was heavily biased to the number of weeks you skied on snow that year. However, I'd been skiing twice a week on dendrix doing instructor training and am able to to short radius turn comfortably carving the entire turn, depending on which club skis I am using.
I've recently been skiing with several BASI 3 skiers who haven't been as good as me (instructors words not mine), but I guess they are much better than me on snow as they would have more experience of skiing differing surface conditions. how does dryslope skiing ability transfer to snow skiing and does this make me a level 8 skier?
I wouldn't be able to accurately assess my ability on snow as I don't know how my skills will transfer to moguls or steep icy slopes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The thing to remember is that S & R and SCGB have set up these scales as a guide to their products. If you are a "10" on the S&R scale, then hopefully you would have some sort of idea which skis/boots you wanted. The purpose is to help 2nd week skiers spend their money appropriately.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| PG wrote: |
Wear The Fox Hat,
| Quote: |
| When it comes to experts, then you are into a whole new ball park. It is possible to be an expert downhill racer, but not an expert slalom skier. Or an expert in the terrain park, but no good on a GS course. |
Don't really agree with that. Slightly less expert maybe. All racers have reached extremely high levels across the disciplines, even if some of them later concentrate on one or two. All racers spend tons of time messing around doing other stuff apart from gates. And that includes training. |
Yes, I hear what you're saying, but if you go outside of skiing, and look at other sports, or other activities, then most people who are called "experts" are so in their own specialised area, so, for example, surgeons, you may get an expert brain surgeon, but he may not be an expert heart surgeon. You might consider Michael Shumacher an expert F1 driver, but could he win the WRC this season?
Or, to go back to skiing, Tanner Hall claimed he was as good as Darron Rahlves, and could compete with him on a downhill.
To me, an expert is such because their expertise lies in a particular area. To be a jack of all mountain, you'll be an expert of none. (in my opinion)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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davidb I agree with you about the S&R scale where it is biased towards the number of weeks skiing you have done, as I have skied with a variety of people who have skied a similar number of weeks, but are differing ablities, both better and worse which could be due to the resort people have learnt to ski, ski instructors, and there own personnal confidence.
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Elizabeth B,
It didn't effect what boots I wanted as I tried a pair on previously, but S&R had them at half price. I just didn't get the free boot insurance policy thing as they where "expert" boots and on there scale I was almost a beginner, which I wasn't bothered about.
David
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
Or, to go back to skiing, Tanner Hall claimed he was as good as Darron Rahlves, and could compete with him on a downhill.
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My my our Tanner is a bit leery but did he really say that? In my December copy of Freeskier Hall is quoted as saying:
I think its (downhill) is cowdoo man! They went through so much, fer sure, but all they do is ski down one icy-ass run... Put me in a downhill and I may not go as fast as Bode but I will make it to the bottom, put one of those racers in the pipe and they won't even go
I think WTFH has a subtle point. Yes we can all ski the Face at Val d'Isère but the skill level to ski the Face at 80-100mph is way above that required to take half an hour to ski it. Tanner's comparison is false - it is the same as Bode Miller zig-zagging down the middle of the pipe.
This may be cowdoo but a guide friend said he could tell how good, more or less, a skier was just by seeing a photograph of them standing on skis.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Caspar, my thoughts exactly! 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Caspar, To be honest it doesn't really matter to me either. Where we came in with this is that for the purposes of equipmt review I thought it reasonable that we stated some kind of ability level, lest the review be of little use to others. I suggested the S&R scale as frankly, I didn't know another one! It was lambasted, so I thought could the s come up with a better one?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Wear The Fox Hat, Michael Schumacher didn't win the recent Race Of Champions, so I guess he wouldn't win the WRC, certainly not in his first year, but most people would still call him an expert driver, rather than just an expert F1 racer.
I'm absolutely sure that Tanner Hall wouldn't beat Darron Rahlves in a DH unless Rahlves made a massive mistake, but Tanner Hall and Darron Rahlves would both be true experts in moguls, slalom, off-piste, the whole lot, compared to any of us. Are you saying an expert is in the world top 20/100/whatever - if so I think that's too hard a definition to meet. To me a ski expert would be someone who is maybe in the top 1.0-0.1% of skiers who I see during a week in the Alps. Some people on this board would then certainly meet this definition, and any recent BASI 3 should be in there as well I would have thought.
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May I suggest that people use the S&R scale when dealing with S&R and the SCGB one when dealing with them and any "in resort" scales when in resort.
We could invent our own - but who else would care?
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You know it makes sense.
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Whoo! This one has generated a lot of air since I looked in this morning. On reflection, I think Ray Zorro has a point, any system only has real validity within the group who use it. Those who say that you need to be looked at by someone independent are also right - and it's a sobering experinece. It can be useful to have a system for getting like groups together.
I also agree that real experts (for example, but not exclusively, those in FIS leagues, guides, and instructors) have to be looked at separately from the rest of us plebs.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I personally cannot see how you could ever work this out.
How do you factor in things like knowledge of the mountains, avalanche training etc, foe example, I skied with a guide in Val D'Isere who wasn't a great skier, but knew the mountains inside out, he was more info touring that off piste skiing.
What about someone who hates moguls but can ski anything off-piste, how do you classify them (ok extreme example but hopefully you get what I mean)
cheers,
greg
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Poster: A snowHead
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I dont think slikedges, meant for us to form a new grading system, merely to compare the existing systems and all add our 2p worth on what was or wasnt appropriate, etc etc
When I ask another skier what they can do, I've never been met with " ohh im S&R grade3 and SCGB level 7" more like " I can ski reds but I dont like moguls.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wear The Fox Hat,
| Quote: |
| To me, an expert is such because their expertise lies in a particular area. To be a jack of all mountain, you'll be an expert of none. (in my opinion) |
I do see where you're coming from, but it does depend on how narrowly or otherwise you define the 'expert'. A lot of top freeskiers and skierX stars are ex Alpine racers who either didn't quite make it and/or who found it boring, while a lot of top Alpine racers would give any skierX racer a run for his money and can ski a couloir with the best of them. After all, when they're not skiing gates (by no means most of their time on the snow) they're zipping through the trees and skiing off piste at speeds and with skills I for one can only dream of.
slikedges, I'm not trying to be evasive, but as I think that the concept of providing a framework which invariably encourages people to overrate their ability is at fault, it doesn't make a lot of sense to join in with a points scoring system of my own. I'll just say that generalising hugely (and leaving out parallel professional skiing activities for the sake of simplicity) there is a distinct and visible gap in ability, and to a lesser extent technique, between a top ten WC skier and the remainder of the top thirty, between the top thirty and from 30 to 60. Etc. Between a WC skier and a Europa Cup skier. Between a Europa Cup skier and an 'ordinary' national team member... and so on for another paragraph before we even get close to the gifted amateurs.
I reckon only a professional instructor/coach - with no agenda - would be qualified to draw up a scale with any real meaning. And the only point would be to get the message home to leisure skiers that none of us aging amateurs have a hope of achieving those dizzy heights, that our skills are very limited, comparatively speaking. That not a few of us are accidents waiting to happen, and nearly all are need of further tuition. The actual pro skiers going through the learning process don't need to be told. They already know how much they've still got to learn.
The vast majority of the better amateurs here, phillingle etc aside, are just the equivalent of dads kicking a ball around in the garden who can impress their kids by doing a bit of juggling and a couple of tricks, as compared to Ronaldo.
I'm one of them. And even then, only on a (rare) good day!
The whole drift of my argument here is that the majority of accidents on the slopes are the result of people having an inflated opinion of their own ability and skiing too fast or in the wrong place as a consequence. Anything that encourages that attitude, or even fails to discourage it, should be looked at. The ski industry, from the resorts to the tour operators to the ski product/accessories manufacturers are the last people to be entrusted with the responsibility of telling us how good we are and how dangerous a sport it is, for obvious reasons.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 17-05-05 14:54; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| PG wrote: |
| richmond, the assumption that we are ourselves experts is entirely unfounded. I defy you to check through my 6,448 posts to date and find a single one that vaunts my abilities. |
I'm sure that you're right. I was merely offering an (apparently correct) explanation of GrahamN's remarks. I have never felt patronised or sneered at by you or ise, but apparently he has.
rob@rar.org.uk, a remark can be sneering even if it's spot on; indeed, it's a much more effective sneer if it is. PG's 'Beginner Plus' definition was a particularly good (and heartfelt) sneer, and all the more effective for being accurate about some skiers.
What's wrong with sneering, BTW? The sneerer enjoys it, those reading or hearing it enjoy it; the only person who doesn't enjoy it is the sneeree, and who cares about them anyway?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
PG, I think that the concept of providing a framework which invariably encourages people to overrate their ability is at fault
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I don't see that either scheme does that at all. You either fit the criteria within a particular level or you don’t. I would rather suggest that should they want to know, then it enables people to assess their ability within any particular scale.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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[quote="PG"]Wear The Fox Hat,
| Quote: |
The vast majority of the better amateurs here, phillingle etc aside, are just the equivalent of dads kicking a ball around in the garden who can impress their kids by doing a bit of juggling and a couple of tricks, as compared to Ronaldo.
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Ha that sounds like me... the other day I was impressing the missus and kidlet by kicking a ball[i] from foot to foot to knee, finished off with a nice flourish of a header... into next door's plastic greenhouse.
[i] note the ball was a light plastic one, the footie equivalanet of fatboy skis.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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slikedges, how do you pronounce your name?
is it slick edges, slyke edges or have you misspelt ski-ledges?
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Nice one slikedges, good thread to get a few people out of their end of season slumber.
Can't however add with any expertise to the grading system conundrum. I tend to pick a route ski it as fast as I can , if I fall go, back do it again.
No need to over complicate things. Ski it hard, ski it fast and try and do it on something that's just out of your comfort zone.
Oh, then get drunk.
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PG..sneering at the Beginner Plus stage?
I thought it was written very well, accurate but with just enough tongue-in-cheek so as not to offend the very people it describes.
A scale based on just such descriptive language would be much more useful than all the others I've seen so far.
For example I'd put myself in the "I thought he/she was a good skier?".
I.E.
If you saw me skiing a groomed piste, even a fairly steep one, you'd think: "Oh, he's a pretty good skier, nice short turns, good carving"
BUT, if you then saw me in steeper/deeper/bigger powder or moguls you'd think: "Oh, that's funny, I thought he was a good skier, he looked good on piste"
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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No grading is foolproof but that doesn't mean that they therefore should be scrapped.
Gradings serve 2 main functions: a) They let me know when I've improved against an fixed external criteria, and
b) they provide other people with a reliably fixed start point from which to start evaluating what they think my skill level might be.
Don't forget that grading descriptions were only ever intended as a START point for assessing actual ability - human eyes/ears/insight then take over in determining whether the grading is appropriate for the task in hand. If you're not willing to jump through the usual hoops to get an accurate estimate of your skill level, and you therefore overestimate your ability and take on slopes/equipment that are out of your league, then you deserve all the nasty situations that befall you.
To this extent I'm not entirely sure that there is any point in designing a better mousetrap when it comes to ski ability/equipment gradings - at the end of the day the point of a grading system is to provide a fixed set of criterion, against which anyone can then start to assess their skill. SCGB does that with theirs, S&R does it with theirs. Everyone on snowheads could come up with an equally well designed system and a strict reading of it would still fail to accomodate a large proportion of variations between many people people and so it would end up being described as a failure by some people.
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| PG wrote: |
| The whole drift of my argument here is that the majority of accidents on the slopes are the result of people having an inflated opinion of their own ability and skiing too fast or in the wrong place as a consequence. |
That's why I like the use of the word "control" when talking about ability (for those who aren't experts )
If you can *sometimes* control your speed, or the arc of your turn, then you're not in control.
Anyone can get down a black mogul field ... but not everyone can get down one in control.
So, I believe that an advanced skier is one who can come down a piste of variable pitch, and can control his turns (long radius/short, carved/scarved, etc) and maintain a controlled speed, i.e. not a series of speed ups then slow downs, but a near constant pace.
Doing that on any pisted terrain, to me will mean you are a good advanced skier.
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FAQ
