 Poster: A snowHead
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| After the recent tragedy in Val D has anyone changed their views on this issue. If an avalanche on a well skied off (side of) piste area with an experienced guide (who has probably skied the route on a weekly basis) is such a possibility, then should an experienced guide be exposing his paying clients (I am not talking about matching skiers ability to a particular slope, that should be a given in all circumstances) to a couloir route that he has no experience of at all and that has only ever been skied by a few people ever in its entire history because of lack of snow? How could he possibly know what the snow base would be like on that particular day without any experience of it and probably without having spoken to anyone with much experience of it? |
I feel you may be talking about two different aspects of off piste skiing here. When you started the thread you were talking about routes which might be unsuitable for the skiers involved.
The accident in Val d'Isere is not like that at all. The Signal area is well known and although I cannot claim to know the area in detail I have skied it many times although most recently always with guides. It is very easily accessible, not technically difficult and is one of the places where I first skied off piste about thirty years ago. I suspect that many skiers have had their first off piste experiences around the Signal area. It is not the sort of place where someone inexperienced might panic, freeze up or feel in physical danger.
The scary thing to me about the recent accident, is that it occurred in a place that is generally thought to be as safe as it can get, that it happened with a highly experienced guide who skis in the particular area probably several times a week and has done for years and despite the carrying of both airbags and transceivers, one person died.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| richjp wrote: |
| The scary thing to me about the recent accident, is that it occurred in a place that is generally thought to be as safe as it can get, that it happened with a highly experienced guide who skis in the particular area probably several times a week and has done for years and despite the carrying of both airbags and transceivers, one person died. |
Proving, tragically, that skiing has potential risks which you can reduce by taking all sensible precautions but you can not isolate yourself from the risk 100%.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It is perhaps unfortunate that most of the people answering rayscoops are expert skiers who have been doing this sort of thing for some time. You won't come into the category of person this might apply to for a long time.
I use a guide so I can ski safely off piste and ski in places I wouldn't be likely to find otherwise. Now I am more expert myself this also means I am skiing places I wouldn't dare ski on my own (largely but not only because I wouldn't know if the snow was safe).
If you have a group of friends who ski at the same standard then you could hire a guideat somewhere between 300-450 Euros a day for the group (depending partly on the resort - Verbier is very expensive. €350 would be typical in France. Usually a smaller group costs slightly less but they usually don't like to take more than 6.
Otherwise look for a company which has several guides and will put you in with a group of the same ability (for example Alpine Experience in Val d'Isere). The cost will be similar per person to booking a private guide for 5 people (or sometimes more like 4 1/2).
I was once very lucky and 2 of us were joined in a public group by 2 others. However the other two were not up to the supposed standard they had claimed and were transfered to another group and the two of us had a fantastic day alone with a guide and ended up totally exhausted (but happy).
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Mountain Guides are certainly qualified to take people down routes they haven't skied before. Like all mountain professionals, guides operate with a massive safety margin when with clients, and you can be pretty certain they are sure a route is safe if they take you down it. However, that doesn't mean you will not need to use a rope, or walk out at the end. That is all part of off-piste skiing.
That said, I never take clients down a route I haven't skied. I have been caught out too often with clients on piste, never mind off-piste.
A large part of the job is assessing your clients skills & confidence, and working out what they would enjoy.
Unfortunately fear tends to be a catastrophic failure, one minute they are fine, the next they have completely frozen or are in tears.
None of us are perfect, we do make mistakes.
And sometimes we do everything right and it still goes wrong.
If you are unhappy or uncomfortable then talk to your guide / instructor.
They may not have realised you were uncomfortable.
They might be able to resolve your fears.
They might hold up their hands & go "Yes, I f**ked up!"
They might learn something from your comments.
It is very hard for them to rectify the situation if you leave your complaints or questions until after the event.
The practice of importing guides to resorts they are not familiar with does puzzle me.
A large part of what you are paying for is that detailed local knowledge.
For off-piste beyond a basic introduction, I am reluctant to work outside my home resort.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| richjp wrote: |
| The scary thing to me about the recent accident, is that it occurred in a place that is generally thought to be as safe as it can get, that it happened with a highly experienced guide who skis in the particular area probably several times a week and has done for years and despite the carrying of both airbags and transceivers, one person died. |
Proving, tragically, that skiing has potential risks which you can reduce by taking all sensible precautions but you can not isolate yourself from the risk 100%. |
As a guide do you think it would be a sensible precaution to perhaps only taking clients down couliors/difficult routes etc that they (the guide) would have first hand experience of ?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rayscoops,
not particulary, and especially in the case of high mountain guide where they may well be leading ski tours in unfamilar terrain this will be fairly common and what they are trained for.
I myself have done plenty of routes/lines that I have got from guidebooks/internet etc and its part of the fun/challenge of the backcountry.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| As a guide do you think it would be a sensible precaution to perhaps only taking clients down couliors/difficult routes etc that they (the guide) would have first hand experience of ? |
I think a fully qualified guide has sufficient information from map reading, knowing the recent snow history and having spent a little bit of time with their clients (to assess their standard of skiing & temperament) to take lead a route with clients for the first time.
Even as a ski instructor I'm assessed on leading a group safely down routes that I've not skied before, based on map reading alone. I'm guessing that this is a significant part of a guides training and professional experience.
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I have often been taken places the guide hadn't skied before. But he will certainly have looked at it on a map and perhaps scoped it out from below or from a lift and probably it will be a well known route that the guide will have discussed with other guides. Most importantly he will certainly be leaving a large margin of error.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Ray that couloir / route descent is comparable in aspect / exposeure etc to a few others very very close to it, in fact I think it's in the middle - I actually thought that's where we were going!
See http://www.skierslodge.com/legend/Girose_de_Gauche.html http://www.skierslodge.com/legend/Girose_de_Droite.html
also similar ones at http://www.skierslodge.com/legend/LOrciere-de_Droites.html http://www.skierslodge.com/legend/Lorciere_de_Gauche_%22La_Vaute%22.html
So it was not a major call - no more than if we'd gone down one of the others - as the snow pack is changing all the time it made no real difference as to what route we were going to take - plus like I said our guide had spoken to a couple of others who had done it as well.
So do think in this example you're making more out of it than it actually is / was.
I've been with Per in far far more nervous / dangerous situations when doing other stuff - but that's more to do with ski touring and being exposed on a slope - you only have to look at the number of guides etc involved in avalanche fatalities in France. On more than one occassion we've turned back and taken another route with Per saying better to be "alive chickens" than "dead guide and clients" and to me it did not look that bad.
It's not the skiiing but the skinning up when you're in the most danger!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Guiding in La Grave is a whole different level - and only really done properly by a small group of local guides.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| snowcrazy wrote: |
I have read this thread with interest.
I am not sure I agree that a guide should take a person somewhere he has never skied. I had the experience of this in La Plagne a few seasons ago.
The guide came over from Courchevel, was leading us (four people) down a route which I knew had a waterfall half way down. I was the tale marker. I waited for him to cut right as I thought the snow conditions were not good enough to ski the fall that day. When he did not stop and continued into the narrow gap. I stopped above and also got the person below me to stop and told him why. The guide was to far in front for me to alert him of my concerns. He stopped just above the fall and then those that had followed him down had a very tricky climb back up as it was impossible to ski the fall as I suspected. They were lucky nobody slipped. We then did the high traverse out above the falls. In good conditions you can drop over this fall, I would have expected him to be aware of the conditions that day and know it was not possible. It was clear he had not checked in advance.
This mistake made me realise that it is really important to know the conditions of the day and the local snow history very well. Local knowledge is very important. I knew this guide from Courchevel. I have skied with him before in his own patch where he is very good, but it shows that even with all there training, they need to check things out very well in advance to avoid difficulties. So Guides can and do make mistakes sometimes. |
I think your experiance shows just how much Guide's are dependant on feedback from there clients,Both at the start of the day when the plan is discussed and during it especially when he is in an area he is not 100% familiar with.Every pair of eyes and ears may see,hear or know something that the guide has perhaps missed or be unaware of.He is as dependant on his clients for his safety as you are to him.
On another day your situation could have ended very badly it sounds.
Mark
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Going back to cost, I joined in with a group of three with a guide in Engelberg last week and it cost 150CHF per person.
The guide was very professional and we got some great fresh tracks. The only catch was having to skin up for 2 hours.
Generally a proper qualified ski guide is very trustworthy. These days if they make a mistake they go to jail so it is not in their interests to put your life in danger.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Weathercam wrote: |
So it was not a major call - no more than if we'd gone down one of the others - as the snow pack is changing all the time it made no real difference as to what route we were going to take - plus like I said our guide had spoken to a couple of others who had done it as well.
So do think in this example you're making more out of it than it actually is / was. |
Maybe but it was the way you described the day that stirred things a bit in my mind, especially as you has skied off a 50 ? foot cliff the day or so before ! ..... (see opening post for quote) ... paraphrasing your words you seemed surprised to think that a guide with 15 years experience was taking you down a route he had never been down himself, that was avalanche prone and that had only just been worked out by a guide climbing up the South side opposite. You even said that you did think this somewhat incredulous !
If the guide had explained this and said that was the route he wanted to take you on before hand would you have agreed to the route ?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rayscoops wrote: |
so ok guys, a scenario ....
you meet your guide at breakfast, very experienced, and he says he is going to take you down a coulior he has never skied in his 15 years of guiding in Le Grave, infact he has not really spoken to anyone who has skied it before because normally there is not enough snow, but he thinks everyone has the skill to ski it, he then advises that there are only a few places where you can not stop and that the route was only recently discovered by a climber, hence why he has never skied it himself.
So ... bearing in mind this is not just a normal bit of standard off piste that he has not skied before - would you say yes, I trust you lets go, or would you ask him whetehr perhaps he should have skied it himself first from a safety point of view before taking others down it?
To the instructors here too, would you take your client on an expert level off piste lesson down such a route that you had not skied before ? |
Would I? Hell yes...
I would ask about things like avalanche risk, escape options (including abseil), how far it is to get to/from (if skinning involved), but if the guide is happy with the conditions and is offering to take me down a seldom skied route that is in good condition then not only would I be happy to do it I would be extremely keen - this is partly what I pay a guide for. That said I also pay a guide for local knowledge, so if he was not conifident of finding the route in good condition I would be less happy; I have been with guides in areas they didn't know and ended up bushwhacking a bit. I am sure it was safe from objective danger, but I was not impressed with the route finding, the hour or so spent hacking through bushes was an hour of skiing lost if nothing else. There is a difference beween skiing a new route and getting lost though.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Ray read the original post again slowly - as in all Internet Forums they are a bit like chinesse whispers the way things can be taken out of context.
I actually went off the cliff a few days later - good example of what can happen when you're not with a guide!
The incredulous statement was that I was surprised that route had only just been found!
And like I said the route was right in the middle of others we had done before, only this time we did not have to abseil into them - so would have said "yes" if we'd been asked, and Per again knows me so well it was also a bit of a surprise / hounoured client guest prize for me as it were if that makes sense.
And any decent descent in the Spring will always involve a wee bit of birch tree / bush guerilla warfare skiing to get through especially in unknown terrain. This is a good example of what a Guide can also serve up http://www.peras.se/index.php?Trips:Arctic_Sail_%26amp%3B_Ski
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Weathercam, nice just watching your vids from Lyngen - 4 trips lucky you!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Weathercam, it does look fantastic and I think it was more the way you described the route that got me thinking about it all - i.e. only identified from the opposite cliff face etc. as something that could be skied a week or so before, only ever been skied for the first time the week prior etc (even though gnarly dudes ski the region), the guide (who has skied everything in the region) had never personally been down it in 15 years of guiding, etc etc etc
To me it came over as if the guy could not have known about snow pack, over hangs, safe spots, exact lines etc because not only had he not skied it but he had not even been able to see the snow/route, no talk about digging pits etc, no prior warning to you about the intended route (did he tell anyone that was the way you were coming down) and when you questioned him on it he just shrugged his shoulders. The only thing he seemed to have done was to have talked to others who has skied it a few days before hand.
Obviously I have not boarded in the region, do not know the lie of the land etc. and am not massively experienced in off piste sliding so am really reacting to what and how you described it.
It must be fantastic to ski such routes and the powder that you get from it is amazing and the sort of stuff I love, I just felt that the way you described it seemd as if the guide was a bit unprofessional in at least not having been down it just once for himself to know exactly what to expect on the basis that the skiable route was not visisble from any particular vantage point. If however with your knowledge of the area and the guide that you were not at risk and that the only reason it had never been skied was due to lack of snow, then that is ok.
I am sure i have done much worse scuba diving !!
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