 Poster: A snowHead
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Another question as far as the tip rocker goes...
does this make a ski harder to initiate into a turn than a traditional camber?
for e.g., take the Faction Alias which is available with either rocker or traditional... if one is better than the other, what is the point in producing both? Is it because the traditional version performs better on piste or harder snow and the rocker better in soft snow.
would be good to hear from folk that have skied the same or similar skis back to back and in what condition and wether they think one was better than the other???
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Trad' camber will 'bite hard snow better and 'should' therefore work more fluidly and accelerate better. However the Rocker skis, being they are already cambered to the turn radius in theory should initate quicker, it will all depend on model, length and skier style.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| kitenski wrote: |
| Patch, cheers, so how did you pick between Preacher vs Redeemer vs your 90mm ski on a given day? |
Redeemers for a powder day, Preachers for a mostly off-piste day with mixed conditions, skinny 90mm for most other days and racing 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Does Meatloaf ski?
(I misread this at first as "Tell me about Fat Rockers with skis")
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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For what its worth I reckon 100-110mm under foot is perfect for the vast majority of euro / alpine conditions.
As a rule of thumb....
<90mm isn't enough to open your turns out on big faces
> 110mm starts to hurt your ankles and degrade hard snow / carve-ability / ski any-where performance.
However people get too obsessed with ski waist width.
When other important factors such as length / rocker / tip stiffness / ski weight also affect the overall flotation (which is what really matters).
Plus most people buy off-piste skis way too short
If you live in the UK then traveling with 2 pairs of skis sucks.
So get I would personally select a one ski quiver - plus Dukes / Barons / Tour-Wreckers for resort based skiing.
If your lucky enough to be doing a season, or live in the mountains, then maybe think about adding a > 115mm rockered pow-killer for your quiver.
It wont be optimal most days, but will be fun on the really deep days.
Even in Verb / Cham / la Grave you want to ski traverses, moguls, trees, icy piste to access the goods. And these things can be fun too.
If you believe the marketing men then rocker is better everywhere.
Certainly makes a big difference in soft snow and keeps the tips above surface.
But I am (personally) to be convinced it improves hard snow performance, even if it makes start of the turn easier to initiate.
Rocker also equals less effective edge - though it depends how subtle the rocker is (and also tip stiffness again!)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Haggis_Trap, At last we agree, I think this could be love................. 
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Haggis_Trap, thanks, that reads like a very good summary 
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^ Wow SZK - first time for everything ha ha
The problem with buying off piste skis is that you ideally need to demo them in a variety of conditions to find what works for you.
Which can be tricky, even in an alpine resort.
For most mere-mortals the biggest / baddest / fattest /stiffest ski (i.e Dynastar XXL!) is not necessarily the best option.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Haggis_Trap, We insist on testing, but then we don't sell skis anymore
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ Wow SZK - first time for everything ha ha
The problem with buying off piste skis is that you ideally need to demo them in a variety of conditions to find what works for you.. |
see, here lies the problem. In Scotland at least, that's impossible.
I have a list of around 7 skis that i am looking at and i'll be lucky to get to test 3 of them before i make my decision. Could take ages to decide due to this!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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shoogly, Post 'em up, will try and bring it down to 3 for ya, if I can be so kind.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Haggis_Trap,
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Plus most people buy off-piste skis way too short
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Agree on that plus I think some people tend to read to much into the turn radius published by the ski makers
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Haggis_Trap, We all had 90-100mm skis last season but hardly used them. If you want to ski hard pack, ice, moguls etc fine but you don't have to. And if you can't do a traverse or navigate some moguls on rockers you need to improve your skiing, not buy narrower skis. There's always some powder, wind crust, heavy spring snow somewhere in Verbier and rockers slay traditional skis in those conditions and are consequently much more fun. It's not just about 2 foot deep powder.
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You know it makes sense.
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^ I said that 100-110mm was optimal (in my very humble opinion) for Europe.
Selecting ski equipment is always a compromise.
There is quite simply no such thing as one ski that is perfect for every condition.
And personal preference plays a big role.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Wed 8-09-10 20:46; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I agree with Haggis_Trap on 100-110mm being optimal allround. A full day on 120'+ varied conditions really takes it out of you from the added torque to joints. I don't disagree that wider is manageable, but it's not optimal. I'm sure I spent about 3 years of various posts arguing that 90-110 was the sweet spot for one ski quivers and had to argue with 310928391823 people that they could still carve a turn, kinda funny it's the consensus now 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Fair enough but from what I saw last season most people who's main target is to ski off piste will have much more fun on a wide rocker than a compromise ski eg Kuro vs Gotama. If you want to ski a bit of everything, including piste then it's a different story.
kitenski, said he's got 92mm skis which go anywhere but also does a pure off piste trip. 100-110 skis aren't different enough to what he's already got. I reckon he'll get the Redeemers and once he's skied in some half decent conditions on them he'll be another convert .
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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the best and only ski is that one that brings the biggest smile.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Dot., and which ski in your opinion delivers the most smiles? I know RPF's answer....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| DaveC wrote: |
| kinda funny it's the consensus now |
[panto]
Oh no it's not
[/panto]
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
| kitenski, said he's got 92mm skis which go anywhere but also does a pure off piste trip. 100-110 skis aren't different enough to what he's already got. I reckon he'll get the Redeemers and once he's skied in some half decent conditions on them he'll be another convert . |
^ there is where I am going to disagree.
Consider that a 100-110mm ski in 190cm length has the same surface area as most snow boards.
Almost any ski of this size will float plenty in typical alpine conditions (say 40cm dumps). In fact once you get to 100mm+ under foot then its actually other factors such as tip rocker, tip stiffness, ski weight, ski flex & length (not just width under foot) that really make the biggest difference to the overall floatation.
In case you hadnt guessed I dont agree that fatter (or stiffer) is always best. Personally I prefer to be able to hold an edge on sketchball traverses into somewhere like Gele / Trifide II or Cosmiques.
Kaj Zackrisson made some interesting comments at the FWT last year - above 115mm it actually becomes harder to stick big (20ft+) drops in competions. Because the skis dont sink on impact, and the skier ends up backseat.
I am not saying 120mm skis dont have a place.
They are great in soft snow - but its wrong to claim they are an ideal quiver of one ?
If Kitenski gets a Redeemer then what ski does he take out on an average 5/10cm day ?
Assuming he has actually bothered to cart both pairs to the alps...
What if he goes on a trip and it doesnt snow that week ?
Its all personal preference - and like I mentioned before selecting ski equipment is always some kind of compromise.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 8-09-10 21:22; edited 3 times in total
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| Dot., and which ski in your opinion delivers the most smiles? I know RPF's answer.... |
it's a close tie for us between the Preacher and the Redeemer but the Redeemer just pips the Preacher. Its also the ski that surprises most skiers. Most of our sales are post demos. Smiles sell skis 
The Preacher is our biggest seller and of our 4 models this season a third of sales is the Preacher.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 8-09-10 21:26; edited 1 time in total
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Haggis_Trap, Personally I think you're about on the money for a one ski quiver for Europe or N America for that matter. Unless you only ever tour good days or ski heli or chances are whatever you choose for some of the time something else will be the best ski ever. Its only because its still summer that anyone's arguing about it. For me a fat rockered ski on a pow day is just a constant giggle cos it just takes tip dive out of the equation, but a good allrounder at 110ish is also a hoot and more fun if you're going to find an isolated groomer and hoon for a couple of hours a few days after a storm or do a bumps lap.
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Haggis_Trap, but most people don't ski like Kaj, huck 20m cliffs or traverse icy 45 degree pitches. Most people do struggle in windcrust, heavy snow and deep powder.
I don't for a minute advocate 120mm skis as a quiver of one. However for a guy already skiing an 92mm ski wanting an off piste only ski I certainly do recommend them.
And to answer your questions in Verbier with 5 or 10cm I'd take the Redeemers every time. If it hadn't snowed for a week I'd probably head into superbowl which would be full of windcrust so I'd take the Redeemers - Which would be miles easier and more fun than the HSFR's.
For sure on piste, tracked out moguls etc the HSFR's would be better but I don't see the big deal with putting 2 pairs of skis in your bag
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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All personal preference - really depends if you want to slarve or carve.
Myself ? I would sell the HSFR and get something Preacher-esque (112mm - not exactly narrow!) as a daily driver.
Especially if I was based in the UK. Just make sure you buy 'em long enough.
So what shall we discuss next ? 
Hard tail vs Full Suss mountain x-country mountain bikes ? Politics ? Best ski resort in Europe ? ....
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From the WDF stable I reckon the new Ragnarok ( http://www.whitedotfreeride.com/skis4.php ) would be a lot more versatile than the Redeemers as a euroland tool for UK based skiers whilst giving little away on a deep day. 300mm rocker, zero camber, long radius, long running length, stiff underfoot, flat tail - mmmmmm, very nice.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Following on from Spyderjons post I would agree that a ski with positive camber underfoot and and gentle early tip rise/rocker is a nice ski for euro pow.
A fully rockered deep pow badboy is great for the big days but even then it struggles to accept skiing lines with any commitment or passion, it likes to be light headed and fun and playful, which I am sure suits some, but not me. A fully rockered ski doesn't hold a good edge and likes to 'slarve'(what a word) turns rather than drive through them with any passion. A ski with a traditional camber underfoot, albeit not too extreme, and a gentle early tip rise is the best of both worlds. Power when you need to drive through the crud and for when the solid beneath the pow is still to be felt, and the floatation for those days when skiing is really 3D. Realistically though we only experience a handful of proper 3D snow days in a whole european season, if you're rich keep a full rocker for those days but, when it matters most and you are actually asking your ski to perform you want that edge to grip, that camber to drive you through the turn, that sidecut to bite in, sliding and pivoting and slarving just doesn't cut it in the real world.
I look forward to the Ragnarok this season Dot., the stats all line up, lets see what Fred has produced!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
the best and only ski is that one that brings the biggest smile.
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Where have i heard that before???
Haggis_Trap, fatbob, DaveC, On the money guys. XX
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, i'll post them in my other thread on a similar subject.... keep this thread for the discussion that it merits
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You know it makes sense.
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spyderjon, HHHHmmm sounds everso like a Dynastar Pro XXL/Big Dump hybrid. Really think the boys needed to make Fred a 107mm ski called the 1-0-7, missed the obvious for me.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, you're almost on the money. One day i'll send you the early drawing and show you Freds scetchs that I've saved. It was 107mm and the mould could be untilalised in the same cavity as the Ragnorok in the future. Fred had total say in his ski. He wanted bigger.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Dot., Would be a great LTD edition, homage to the great leap. Fred wanted bigger??? No way!!!! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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right guys, done some talking, done some searching, so here goes!
Came to the conclusion that 'epic' days of thigh deep powder when I happen to be on holiday are few and far between, and pretty much any ski is going to be ok in those conditions.
So given I will ski off piste whatever the conditions, manky crap, spring corn, cut up fresh, dust on crust etc etc, what ski is going to make the hard stuff easier to ski, but still allow me to ski pistes home, cat tracks to get places etc etc?
My options appear to be:
1. Keep the HS FRs and get something wider, 110mmish for true off piste days, given the above requirement. With the inserts talked about on here I could take 2 sets of skis, 1 set of bindings, therefore reducing weight for travel.
2. Sell the HS FRs and get a one ski that does it all
Suggestions please!!
Dot., How does the Ragnarok compare to the Redeemer?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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kitenski, I really like Lhasa Pows for my "other" ski (my quiver is these + carvers). Basically the slightly moderated DPS120 profile, shark nose ish tip, stiff, long rise rather than angle-change rocker, around the 110 mark. There's an ON3P offering that's quite similar (Billy Goat?) - not sure of what the mainstream offers now that's similar to this since I've not really paid attention lately though.
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brian
brian
Guest
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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brian, Agreed, Katana I forgot, it rocks.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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kitenski, Moment Bibby Pro?
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| brian wrote: |
* they actually measure about 187, they're marginally shorter than the stocklis, maybe voelkl lost their tape measure.  |
do they not measure them before they're pressed into shape? read that somewhere about some other manfacturer...
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shoogly, there are three different ways of measuring skis, total surface length, Standing length and edge length.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Go with option 1). Keep the HSFRs, buy the Faction 3.Zero. Then come back from your first trip and sell the HSFR anyway as you realize that the 3.Zero makes you the happiest.
If you go with option 2) get a 3.Zero.
Just to further confuse you Greg if you are trying to get a good deal on skis have a look out for a Rossignol S7 in 188cm. Ski is GOOD.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| kitenski, said he's got 92mm skis which go anywhere but also does a pure off piste trip. 100-110 skis aren't different enough to what he's already got. I reckon he'll get the Redeemers and once he's skied in some half decent conditions on them he'll be another convert . |
That's kind of where my head is at, I either keep the 92mm and get some 120mmish skis, or sell the 92mm and get a 110mm all mountain ski....
With the inserts spyderjon is sorting I can fly with 2 pairs and 1 set of bindings which should solve any weight issues, and then I will be driving out in Easter, and we are just discussing wether to drive or fly in Jan for the off piste trip....
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FAQ
