 Poster: A snowHead
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skimottaret, I sort of agree - I take the "no such thing as a little off piste" argument to mean that as soon as you are off piste you are making your own decisions. as i said above, there are plenty of places off piste which are safe but it's a case of whether you trust your own assessment as such
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| so I'm now licenced to teach off-piste but not in glaciated terrain or outside the resort boundary. . |
What exactly is the resort boundary ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| IncogSkiSno wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| so I'm now licenced to teach off-piste but not in glaciated terrain or outside the resort boundary. . |
What exactly is the resort boundary ? |
That's a question I've asked myself. In Europe I think it's a bit of a grey area, but if the off-piste route you take doesn't lead you back to the ski lifts (into another valley for example) I'd guess that's one indicator.
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| Quote: |
as soon as you are off piste you are making your own decisions
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agree with that and its a good way of framing it. but to dig my own snowpit deeper i think someone playing around on the sides of easy gradients is a lot safer than hooning around icy pistes at mach 11..
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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^ here is an interesting 'little bit off-piste' photo.
this 150m slide is not even in the alps (its the humble carn aosda piste at glenshee!).
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skimottaret, I do get you're point, but personally (and I'm sure this would be the same for you too) I would never presume to tell anyone 'that bit of the mountain is safe, you don't need a transciever etc there.' If I'm skiing wihtout my kit and I see somewhere like that I may consider going there myself, after all I'd be taking the risk myself (as I wouldn't be skiing above anyone exposed anyway), but I'd never tell anyone else it is safe, they have to make their own decision on that ...Scarpa sums it up quite well:
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It's like either being on the beach or in the sea. One or the other. But... paddling ankle deep in calm water is vastly different to swimming 250m out in a heavy swell. One metre from the piste in flat terrain with good snow conditions is almost as safe as being on the piste. Two metres downslope from the piste on a convex slope in fresh wind blown snow may be very dangerous. But can you evaluate the risks and make the decision?
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If people do want to gfet into offpiste wihtout shelling out oo much on gear, avalanche controlled offpiste routes in the Austrian style (I presume they have these in other countries too?) make a lot of sense, although personally I still take the 'avalanche controlled' part with a pinch of salt
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| ... i am sure someone will post a photo or story about someone getting killed on a green slope under a chair lift when risk was 1 but off piste absolute beginners that feel that they must get kitted out with shovel/probe/transceivers/back protectors and full face helmets to have a play a few metres from a green slope seems over the top to me. |
This was the real point of my OP. I obviously appreciate that having all the gear and training is better then not having it...
I guess that on a certain level you can't really argue that anything that can potentially save a life is "over the top" - perhaps we all need to ski with defibrillators ( - do more people die annually of heart attacks on the slopes then in avalanches?)! 
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The problem is that the type of skier who wants to go 'just a little off-piste' is usually the least educated / able / experienced to be able to evaluate which slopes are likely to be safe.
Avalanche risk depends on the prevalent snow, weather and wind conditions on the day. NOT just the location....
The only real factor in your favor when skiing 'a little bit off piste' is that such slopes get skied more often (so there is less chance of hidden buried layers).
Do you wear a car seat-belt ? You can happily drive a car with out one - but would you recommend it ?
By your logic all cars should be fitted with defibrillators instead of seat belts too....
Last edited by After all it is free  on Thu 2-09-10 14:59; edited 2 times in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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1556garyt,
In Italy it's now a legal requirement .....
http://www.getoffpiste.com/2009/02/italy-makes-it-a-legal-requirement-to-use-beeper-shovel-and-probe.html
If you have a heart attack on the slope you are unlikely to kill someome else. If you set off an avalanche that's a different matter. Amongst other things you could also be prosecuted for killing someone in an avalanche.
If you go offpiste with a guide they should also make sure you have the right equipment.
Even if you only do one parachute jump in your life, I'd still advise you to take a parachute 
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DB, Not sure how having avalanche gear will stop me setting off an avalanche?
To follow through all these analogies, I don't wear a parachute when jumping off a chair 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
| Not sure how having avalanche gear will stop me setting off an avalanche? |
But training will...
And once you are educated them you might decide that actually want a seat-belt (i.e avalanche gear) just in case it all goes wrong.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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In principle, I also agree that there are offpiste areas with essentially zero avalanche risk.
However, those are not that interesting. And then "a little bit of offpiste" turns into "a little bit more" and "this is going well, let's go another 20 yards to the right" and suddenly you're in very dangerous territory such as below a south-facing convex slope at 2pm, without realising it.
I don't like sermonising as a number of years ago I had no clue and ventured offpiste without any gear, and no later than last winter I made the decision of doing a route when I had forgotten my transceiver (I was punished too, fortunately not by an avy but "just" by a 50-meter-long tumble on a 40 degree slope with a lot of rocks showing through).
But I'd say that if you're not experienced in avy and mountain safety, it's safer to get the gear and learn how to use it, or stick to pistes / controlled routes or itineraries / "inbounds" terrain in North America.
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1556garyt, posted about it before - but on some steepish terrain, inbounds in the US, 2 years ago, the two skiers who went in to a chute before me got avalanched. Both carrying the gear and dug up quickly, one died (trauma), one didn't. I wasn't wearing my gear. Perhaps anecdote should not affect one, but I wear my stuff most of the time now (perhaps not on 10-20 degree slope family days) but that is perhaps because I am mainly skiing in "interesting" terrain. I am sure skimottaret has a point too - but if you really are going to have a proper go at it, get the gear and training.
Alan McGregor, only seems to be one mountaincraft course in the freshtracks brochure this year - shame - I wanted to do one.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Thu 2-09-10 15:22; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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| 1556garyt wrote: |
| DB, Not sure how having avalanche gear will stop me setting off an avalanche? |
As Haggis says trainning should help you avoid doing such a thing.
| 1556garyt wrote: |
| To follow through all these analogies, I don't wear a parachute when jumping off a chair |
Chair analogy doesn't work because you can see how far the drop is from the chair. Just because you are near the piste doesn't mean the avalanche will not be fatal. The transceiver can also mean that your family don't have to wait for the sun to thaw out in the spring and so they get your body back sooner.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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1556garyt, the other point to make is that you carry the gear to help rescue people as well as to be rescued. It is a collective approach - a bit like climbers and sailors trying to help each other in emergency situations.
If all you have when you see someone avalanched is your bare hands and a bit of red string [don't ask ] you may feel a bit silly...
but have fun and be safe!
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Poster: A snowHead
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1556garyt,
How would you and your family feel if I set off an avalanche above you and then didn't have the equipment to even try and save you (or notify others to do so) as it was too expensive to buy the kit & trainning?
Offpiste is great fun, join the party but please live and let live.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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stoatsbrother, i am of real mixed mind on this stuff. On the one hand if i am having a fun family ski day do i really need to don all the gear, on the other hand i would feel pretty foolish if i left my transceiver in the apartment and needed it. I dont like wearing backpacks on family days and have to confess i have worn a beeper without shovel/probe after wife nagged me....
i just dont like all the scare stories, avalanche deaths seems to me have been pretty consistent over the years and are mainly in the backcountry and avalanche accidents within resort boundaries that are patrolled and pretty rare. Not to say they dont happen but am i happy for me and my kid to play around between pistes on a nice day without gear, you bet.... on the other hand me and the kid went into a chute like the one you described last year after following my mate and his boy in, i was nervous as it wasnt good at all, he skied it and it was okay but if i had been in front i would have turned back...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skimottaret, indeed. difficult.
no one really wants their epitaph to be "he died with his transceiver turned off"
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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You should never be venturing off piste on your own or without a guide or a local with the necessary knowledge. As stoatsbrother says, it is not just for yourself that you carry the gear but because you are the only person who can save your partners life when they get caught up in an avalanche. If I am taking anyone off piste then it is in my best interests to make sure they are competent enough to save my life should they need to. You're not coming with me even if you have gone and spent some money only some beepy things.
That being said, it is easy to get a basic understanding of the equipment, it does not make any difference which transceiver you have so long as you know how to use it properly, and how to carry out a basic search and rescue. A weeks course will also teach you about terrain traps and the basics of understanding instabilities in the snowpack. It will also make you realise just how much you do not know. After my first weeks training I almost completely stopped riding off piste because I was double guessing myself and didnt have the depth of knowledge needed to trust in my own decisions. It took a lot more experience riding with guides and people of more experience and taking a few more courses and some studying before I was happy to stand at the top of a line and be confident in my decision to ride it. There is no definitive answer, only a calculated risk.
Right now you know nothing, at the very least do a weeks training and it will highlight how much you do not know. Then come back and ask the same question again.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| eclectic wrote: |
| at the very least do a weeks training... |
So I should not go off piste until I've done a full weeks course? 
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| 1556garyt wrote: |
| So I should not go off piste until I've done a full weeks course? |
It all comes down to your definition of off piste. As soon as you leave the pisted areas you are responsible for your actions and your own safety. Mostly the 'offpiste' within resort boundaries is fine...but ''mostly'' is an important word there and you don't have the skillset to judge what is and what isn't, you don't even know what to look for. I have been to resorts where all they have offpiste within boundaries is as safe as the pisted areas. I have also skied in resorts where it is possible to trigger massive slides from 2/3m off the edge of a piste slap bang in the middle of resort.
Outside of resort boundaries you are in a completely different world, you have left the beginner area where people flatten the runs and remove the terrain features for you, now you have to start looking at the mountain and how it behaves and start to learn to respect it.
So in response....No, do not leave the piste until you've done at the least a full weeks worth of training and have an idea of what you are getting yourself into.
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| DB wrote: |
1556garyt,
In Italy it's now a legal requirement .....
http://www.getoffpiste.com/2009/02/italy-makes-it-a-legal-requirement-to-use-beeper-shovel-and-probe.html
If you have a heart attack on the slope you are unlikely to kill someome else. If you set off an avalanche that's a different matter. Amongst other things you could also be prosecuted for killing someone in an avalanche.
If you go offpiste with a guide they should also make sure you have the right equipment.
Even if you only do one parachute jump in your life, I'd still advise you to take a parachute |
Ding ding ding. As I said above way above in my first post. Sorry Gary, I don't know you, if you want to expose yourself to a risk that *could* kill you, go ahead.
My problem with you (not necessarily you, but inexperienced and under equipped skiers), is that you could trigger an avalanche above me and / or my group exposing us to risk OR you could get yourself buried / trapped in an area where attempting to rescue you could see me at further risk.
It's hard enough for experienced off piste skiers / guides / instructors / whatever to evaluate the risk of a particular slope without the risk of some idiot triggering an avalanche above them.
I can name five instances, off the top of my head, of skiers being killed in slides by people - not in their group - triggering the avalanche above them. Common avalanche experience would have told those skiers / boarders not to have dropped in on the slope until the skiers below were no longer exposed.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| 1556garyt wrote: |
| eclectic wrote: |
| at the very least do a weeks training... |
So I should not go off piste until I've done a full weeks course? |
Maybe try phrasing the question in a different way: "should I go off piste without a second thought about off-piste safety and what to do if there is an avalanche?" What is your answer to that question?
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parlor, I don't take your "problem" with me personally and indeed I agree with you - I don't want to trigger an avalanche or be caught in one - I will be purchasing gear and undertaking training. Certainly I won't be going off piste without a guide etc.
However, notwithstanding Italy's legal requirements or best practice as recommended on this forum, I would still maintain that the majority of people going off piste are untrained and relying on their ability/experience only...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| 1556garyt wrote: |
| his forum, I would still maintain that the majority of people going off piste are untrained and relying on good fortune only... |
Fixed it for you.
I speak with personal experience. It was only when I began to get educated about off-piste safety that I realised just how unsafe my off-piste skiing usually was.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| 1556garyt wrote: |
| I would still maintain that the majority of people going off piste are untrained and relying on their ability/experience only... |
Quite possibly. And of course the vast majority of those don't die. But the more interesting the terrain gets, the higher the risk. I think it's wiser to invest the training time early on in the process (eg by joining a proper guided group and asking questions to the guide, while getting the gear lent to you as part of the service) and soon after buying the minimum gear so you have the flexibility.
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| 1556garyt wrote: |
parlor, I don't take your "problem" with me personally and indeed I agree with you - I don't want to trigger an avalanche or be caught in one - I will be purchasing gear and undertaking training. Certainly I won't be going off piste without a guide etc.
However, notwithstanding Italy's legal requirements or best practice as recommended on this forum, I would still maintain that the majority of people going off piste are untrained and relying on their ability/experience only... |
That's good. I suspect you are correct too.
My understanding of true off piste is probably a little different from lots of skiers too. Areas around / beside / in- between, groomed and marked trails don't really make it off piste - yes avalanches can happen on them but there have been plenty of avalanches documented on pistes too.
I, for one, ski everyday with a beeper and 99% of the time with a pack containing shovel / probe. Doesn't matter where I intend to ski.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
However, notwithstanding Italy's legal requirements or best practice as recommended on this forum, I would still maintain that the majority of people going off piste are untrained and relying on their ability/experience only...
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And that makes it OK?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Quote: |
as soon as you are off piste you are making your own decisions
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agree with that and its a good way of framing it. but to dig my own snowpit deeper i think someone playing around on the sides of easy gradients is a lot safer than hooning around icy pistes at mach 11.. |
Agree with the tone of what you are saying - perhaps a sensible rule of thumb is if you can't explain on youir own observations/evidence why your "little bit off piste" is safe then you probably don't belong there ( very low angle, snowpack well consolidated, number of days after last snowfall, no objective hazard from above identified etc).
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Poster: A snowHead
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| fatbob wrote: |
| skimottaret wrote: |
| Quote: |
as soon as you are off piste you are making your own decisions
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agree with that and its a good way of framing it. but to dig my own snowpit deeper i think someone playing around on the sides of easy gradients is a lot safer than hooning around icy pistes at mach 11.. |
Agree with the tone of what you are saying - perhaps a sensible rule of thumb is if you can't explain on youir own observations/evidence why your "little bit off piste" is safe then you probably don't belong there ( very low angle, snowpack well consolidated, number of days after last snowfall, no objective hazard from above identified etc). |
I agree.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Megamum, very good advice for your kids. I do wonder the same about Instructor groups I meet off piste sometimes. Not carrying the correct gear and to many in a group to be under real control and therefore safe.
1556garyt, very pleased to see you are going to buy the basic kit. I never go anywhere off piste without mine. I was told recently by a friend that is a head of piste security, outside of the piste markers is off piste and so you should always be carrying the right gear. May people as we all know do not. For those that question this advice, just look at some of the avalanches last season right beside or in one case even onto a piste. You can never be sure.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I don't have the specific figures for heart attacks, but you are over a 1,000 times more likely to die from some other form of accident than in an avalanche.
But the statistics are quite clear about equipment. To summarise, if you are equiped you have a chance, if you are not, you don't.
It's also about mutual responsibility. How would these 2 scenarios make you feel ?
1) You are buried, wearing a transceiver, but the rescuers don't have transceivers or don't know how to use them.
2) You are first at an avalanche scene & can do nothing because you don't have a transceiver.
The risk is small, but it can be considerably reduced for about £200 in equipment & £300 in training.
For me, its part of my routine. The transceiver goes on as I get dressed. The pack goes on as I walk out the door. Every Day.
It's like a car seat belt, it actually feels odd not to be wearing them.
It regularly scares me, looking up at the mountains, to see the lines people ski (& when).
There is actually some research going on at the moment, because they don't understand why more people aren't avalanched !
We all have stories ...
2 12 year olds skiing on their own off the back of the top of Courmayeur, no idea where they were
The man in moon boots trying to walk across the glacier from Helbronner to the Aiguille du Midi
The fat man in a one piece trying to follow Remy Lecluses group who said 'I might be as good as you'
As ever, the list of peoples stupidity & ignorance is endless
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
The thing is they come back from ski school with tales of trips off the edge of the piste through the trees with their instructor, and then want to replicate these and possibly when they ski with us.
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very good advice for your kids. I do wonder the same about Instructor groups I meet off piste sometimes. Not carrying the correct gear and to many in a group to be under real control and therefore safe.
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this is the kind of over egging the dangers i am on about... i am surmising but assuming Megamums kids tales of off piste adventures actually mean they scooted off a blue run and ducked under a few tree branches perhaps even finding some fresh snow. snowcrazy, I am sure you dont mean to but the implication for parents is that is is unresponsible for teachers to take kids into the death zone of "off piste" skiing through a few christmas trees on the edge of a piste.
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skimottaret, No, I am not talking about just skiing in a few trees by the piste, although I believe you are either off piste or on piste myself.
Many people on here know how familar I am with the Paradiski area and I have met groups with Instructors way off piste in areas of Les Arcs and La Plagne where I would never go without my gear. Last winter even some of my friends kids told me places they had been taken and the parents and I were shocked that they had not been given basic arvi gear before they went out that day.
So, yes parents should ask where there kids will be going if they are in an advanced group (Competition/back country/Elite or similar names) and make sure that the Instructors are going to give them the gear and training they should have. That is how I was taught and it has helped to keep me safe.
Personally when I go with anyone off piste, if they do not have all the gear, I will not go with them. Does not matter whether they are kids or adults. I might be the one leading that has to be found and dug out although I sure hope not.
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FAQ
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