 Poster: A snowHead
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I have more friends on a powder day 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Kramer, how is it 'your group'? Are you the organizer/leader? If you are, you should be able to lay down some rules before people sign up. If you aren't, you shouldn't feel responsible for 'babysitting' beginners. Let people know you're skiing blacks all day, that should put most beginners off following you.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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MartinH, not "my group" that belongs to me, but "my group" that I belong to.
In the first case I definitely wasn't the group "leader" although I was the strongest skier in the group, but there were other people in the group who knew the resort at least as well as I did. In the second case I was the group "leader" in that I was the strongest skier, and the other two didn't know the resort at all, whereas I knew it very well.
I think that if you are the strongest skier in the group, and you know the resort very well, then you do have some responsibility for the other group members, especially if the conditions become difficult. Apart from that, these are people that you've chosen to come on holiday with, so it's worth trying to make things work between you all in a civilised way. In both cases it was patently obvious to everyone apart from the people involved that they needed a lesson, the question is how to let them know that in a way that causes the least amount of friction.
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Clarifying your expectations before setting off seems to be the most civilised way of tackling this one, that way people are not surprised when you ask them to stay behind and have lessons. It is your choice whether you want to be a parental/nurturing leader or not. If you know that you get frustrated and resentful in that role it's up to you to make it clear to the group before they assume otherwise.
Personally, I don't ski with large groups, can't see the attraction at all. But that's just me. And I'm not talking about apres ski. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Obviously very difficult if they are a lone skier as, of course, they would want to ski with the group and most people would help out in this situation. But if they are falling behind and getting more tired trying to keep up that just compounds the difference.
I guess there is no way around it, tell them to spend the first few days in lessons and then they can join the group. If they are struggling and everyone agrees that is good advice then if the person ignores it then there is not much you can do about it and it will stain the holiday for all concerned. People will then form their own little groups anyway which probably defeats the object of going on a group holiday.
Two things I would do are; try and find them a ski buddy so there are two in the same boat or ski terrain above their ability so they get to the obvious conclusion they aren't upto it. I understand you would muddle through a day or two but you can't be expected to sacrifice your hol and if they expect that then I would very quickly run out of patience and that would affect the ambience of the holiday but it would appear unavoidable due to the relunctance of the people to accept the obvious.
Kramer, You must have the patience of a saint..!!
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AD, How on earth do you reckon that 1 hour on the first day is sufficient to teach anyone? All beginners should have decent lessons everyday for their first week. I take 2 days to get them turning - but when they're turning they're doing it properly, balanced, stable, understanding the mechanics of the turn and how the skis work etc. Good habits built in for life. They're not bored because it's the first time they've ever done anything like it.
Sorry - typical amateur teaching.
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In the second example I gave, there were only three of us on holiday, the lady involved classed herself as an "intermediate", and had had a previous week of lessons a couple of years ago. I did everything I could to try and persuade her to get lessons, but she wouldn't, and the only other choice would have been to go off and let her ski on her own, which would have had to have been on the nursery slope.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Kramer, Sorry, but I think that's what you should have done - you're too kind by half! 
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Hard call and probably most of us would have done the same in such a small group.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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easiski, it's what I wanted to do, but I felt that it would be a bit harsh.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Kramer I *might* have given her half a day, probably half the first day. I pay a large proportion of my annual spending money to go skiing so I want to get the most out of it. You;re too nice by half.
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It wasn't that bad. There's plenty of fun to be had on a green run, or off the side of them, or various combinations of the two. Sking backwards, practicing 360 spins (or waltz turns or whatever you want to call them), trying to pop 180s, getting air...
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You know it makes sense.
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If someone is substantially worse than me, I'll split with them and meet for lunch and at the end of the day. Likewise, if people are substantially better, I encourage and expect them to ski without me, once again with the meeting up. Skiing is expensive, and rare enough that you have to take advantage of all the ski days you get 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Would agree with the others that you do have incredible patience Kramer!
Normal practice is to naturally gravitate to groups of similar levels. Last year I was considerable slower than the advance group - but much faster than the beginners - so I went off on my own usually in the mornings - meeting for lunch and then the advanced group were ready for a more leisurely afternoon which I joined them on...
I guess if the lady in question isn't considerate enough to do that herself - I would have to say something - but being english I'd frame it as politely as possible - "why don't we meet after lunch as we'd like to tackle some difficult slopes and I can see that your struggling on the slopes that we find easy - I'm no expert and I don't know what advice to give you - why don't you have a 1-2-1 lesson and take it from there"
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think the rest of us are all agreed: Kramer, 's a saint. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Perhaps they could canonize me at the same time as the pope?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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What??? In a snow cannon?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Elizabeth B, Since the last pope was a skier, what better place. I vote for Kramer.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bit of a tangent, but I wanted to say how much more I got out of my first skiing holiday thanks to my very experienced friend's patience... I had signed up for six half-days of ski school as a complete beginner but was gutted to find that the first lesson was the Monday AFTERNOON - how daft is that? Anyway, having previously decided that my wife and I would meet up for the afternoon with our friends to ski together (in their words, they are past the "as much time on the piste as possible stage" (thinks - is that possible? )) a hurried phone call led to a decision that they'd teach us the basics. Well I nearly cried as I fell for the twentieth time and wondered whether I'd made the right decision to come skiing at all, but decided that I was damn well going to give it more time. I tell you, that first schuss (about two minutes later!) felt all the better for that! Anyway, I digress. My friend helped me get so much more out of things by his patience, tips and encouragement - even when I lost my bottle on the morning of day three and had to slip/slide down most of les Inversens after an earlier fall... took me an hour and I missed ski-school that day, having arrived back exhausted at the hotel about 15 mins before the lesson was due to begin. I took a couple of easy runs in the afternoon to rebuild my confidence and never looked back. I owe a lot to mon ami.
BTW I think I should also point out that I gained an awful lot from good instruction too. Our instructor all week was good, easy-going and mostly "follow me" but having explained himself first, I didn't find that a problem. He would point out bits and pieces too. The Saturday lesson was in the morning and I guess it was Olivier's day off, so we had another instructor - the daddy of thirty years' experience. As there was only myself and my wife this was a real bonus and he really helped with my technique and we had skied down les Inversens before we knew it
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Another good thing about lessons is that everyone goes through the pain barrier roughly together rather than try to keep up with more experienced friends which will just exaggerate the problems. Day 3 is generally regarded as the make or break day so it helpes if everyone is feeling the same stresses and strains. Although my experience was as all beginners together and we couldn't afford lessons so we all ended up at the top of the mountain on our first full day skiing in a foot of fresh snow and we fell down red 18 or whatever it was called from the top of mountain above Sportina at Sauze D'oulx. We got away with that and I've been skiing for over 20 years but wonder how things would have turned out if I had gone down the lesson route. Even though my experience was completely different I always tell newbies to get lessons
and people should expect to be pretty much on their own if they ignore this advise IMO. The only way it worked for us was that there were 6 of us in the same boat but thwe girls went off and got lessons pretty damn quick and us guys fell down the mountain for a couple of days if we couldn't straight line it...!!
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| TallTone wrote: |
| in their words, they are past the "as much time on the piste as possible stage" (thinks - is that possible?) |
It is very possible, the stage after is called the "as much time off-the piste as possible stage", this is followed by the "I wonder if I sold the car, could I afford to go heli-skiing more often stage". This is soon followed by the "sod it, I'm divorced and bankrupt, I guess that I'll have to move to the mountains and take up ski mountaineering stage". The final stage in this inevitable decline, and a sure sign of impending madness is the "Phil Ingle stage".
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Kramer, Nut sadly you also have the "this is normal phase" as the very end of it all!! 
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FAQ
Say that they will be able to ski that after a couple of (or even one) lesson, and the chances are that they will take a lesson the next morn.
