 Poster: A snowHead
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Wow, with 6 weeks...you should have mentioned that in the OP!
Would add Portes du Soleil and Jungfrau into the mix. Even with such extended time you still want to be a wee bit canny.
I.e. where can you base yourself so that hitting lots of big names is easy?
I've never skied Austria (!!) so I'm not terribly qualified on that - but I'd suggest that a Savoie/Haute Savoie core with maybe trips to Dolomites/Austria might be a good structure...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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1969jma, La Rosiere was a joke... btw...
Engelberg and La Grave would be top of the list for me, but I have never really been to Cham. (only done the VB - which they probably should do just to be able to say they have...)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If you look on the pistehors website, you'll see a number of routes and opportunities available in France - that's where I looked when trying to work out whether there really was signficant available around the Les Arcs / La Plagne area. And there is, a considerable amount.
http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Savoie/Les-Arcs-Off-Piste
Maybe not enough for 6 weeks... but certainly with the guides available to you in the region a week's worth no problem. And that's not including the variety of blacks that are lift served.
So if you are able to travel around, give it some thought.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Much of the best skiing in Europe is quite far from the pistes and you really need to know where you are going. If you don't have a local to show you where it is you wouldn't find most of it. I suppose you could follow behind other skiers but this is not a very good idea. In general I play safe, even knowing a resort, and many of the things a guide would take me on I wouldn't do since I wouldn't be sure if the snow would be stable. I have often been with a guide who has kept off certain slopes and then gone onto them later in the day as they stabilised, or some slopes with a particular orientation, but not ones a couple of degrees differently oriented, and obviously you keep off some slopes as they get overheated by the sun - but exactly when does that point come? If you stick to gentler slopes there isn't so much of a problem, but if you like steeper slopes you will certainly have more fun with a guide.
I do, however ski without a guide with my friends, even where we don't know the resort - though obviously I use a 1:25,000 map. In fact I hardly ever ski pistes. Often, though, I reserve slopes I know are there but am unsure about for when we ski with a guide. For example last year in Montgenevre, where not many people ski off piste, there were several signs up saying not to ski off piste since the snow was unstable. We did ski off piste, particularly in the trees, but the big open slopes we left to the guide to decide which were safe and which weren't. When we did ski with the guide even some locals (not guides) looking up at us at one point making the only tracks on a mountainside, thought some of the slopes he took us on were risky, but I have great confidence in his judgement. As he said, they weren't up there able to judge the snow.
I don't think US skiers are used to going where the slopes are not avalanche controlled so the European situation where nothing off-trail is avalanche patrolled has to be faced. When I was in Jackson Hole 2 years ago with British friends the front got skied out very quickly, so often we skied round the back into Granite canyon or beyond. However there were either no other tracks there or almost none. We were very surprised since we had assumed the good skiers at Jackson would look for the good snow, as we were used to doing.
Knowing where there will still be powder is another point. Last time I was in St Anton we skied powder every day and when we put our videos on screen the others in the same hotel didn't believe we had taken them recently since they hadn't seen any.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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By the way, Engelberg is a good area and worth a visit, but if the snow isn't good it is quite restricted and wouldn't sustain many days of skiing. La Grave is also a small area but has a large number of challenging gullies to sample and, as others have said, many other good resorts a short drive away.
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1969jma, have you got 6 full weeks? Assuming you have, you are good skiers and like a bit of adventure I'd get a car and build a flexible schedule around a few days in Chamonix/courmayeur, across the col de forclaz to Verbier (stay in Le Chable if you want it cheap), a day in Val d'anniviers, drive on to zermatt, ski tour over to Monterosa, stay in one of the refuges for a couple of nights. Back to Zermatt and through the Furkapass to Andermatt. 2 or 3 days in Andermatt and Engelberg. Then either onto Austria (I don't know it) or drive back to spend a few days between espace Killy & 3 valleys. Then on to La Grave, alpe d'huez etc. There was a good point above about havng local knowledge but assuming you don't have the budget for guides and you're experienced in the mountains you should be able to get by asking locals and guides for advice on routes/conditions. Usually works for me. Be a bit more careful in zermatt/Cham/La Grave on the glaciers.
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If I was doing it as a mega trip I'd fly into GVA rent a car (with snowchains) for the duration and look to maintain maximum flexibility to chase the snow. I'd keep some of the above in mind as objectives but not bypass local opportunities if conditions looked promising. This might necessarily involve not locking down accomodation in resort but "commuting" from local villages and valley towns and would obviously come with a cost.
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1969jma, There is a good reason for including La Rosiere, it's the only resort in France where you heli-ski and that's why you can see instructors from Tignes, Val d'Isere and even frther afield, there is a 20km descent which is rated as one of the top 3 off-piste intineries in the world but of course I'm always prepared to concede to all those experts who know the resort so much better than I do.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| davidl wrote: |
| 1969jma, There is a good reason for including La Rosiere, it's the only resort in France where you heli-ski and that's why you can see instructors from Tignes, Val d'Isere and even frther afield, there is a 20km descent which is rated as one of the top 3 off-piste intineries in the world but of course I'm always prepared to concede to all those experts who know the resort so much better than I do. |
You have a chalet in La Rosiere, of course you would say that.
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Oh no, there are 18 of us going to La Rosiere at Christmas and I fear it may be too extreme for our mixed group.
There is some great off piste skiable from LA Rosiere BTW
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Frosty the Snowman, I'm sure there is. People say there's nothing challenging about Megève (my favourite resort). Sure, there's plenty of cruising, but also stuff to be found that would have 90% of skiers wetting themselves (including me). I'm quite happy to agree it's not La Grave though.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Most places have gnarl if you're willing to leave the beaten track and go look for it.
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| davidl wrote: |
| 1969jma, There is a good reason for including La Rosiere, it's the only resort in France where you heli-ski and that's why you can see instructors from Tignes, Val d'Isere and even frther afield, there is a 20km descent which is rated as one of the top 3 off-piste intineries in the world but of course I'm always prepared to concede to all those experts who know the resort so much better than I do. |
Pics, map & info please. Sounds epic.
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You know it makes sense.
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Can't be that steep if it's 20k can it? Unless that includes skinning?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Mike Pow, go to www.larosiere.net and click through to the ESF or Ski Evolution sections, you'll find all the info there, the ESF has full time UIAGM guides for heli-skiing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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davidl, since heli sking isn't allowed in France, so you are going to fly over to Italy, and since these guys have 6 weeks which means they can go and stay there anyway, and since they come from near some of the best heli-skiing area in the world ... may I gently suggest you are being a little too parochial?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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davidl, I know I said I missed the jokes about la ros. Not any more. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| JimW wrote: |
| davidl, since heli sking isn't allowed in France, so you are going to fly over to Italy, and since these guys have 6 weeks which means they can go and stay there anyway, and since they come from near some of the best heli-skiing area in the world ... may I gently suggest you are being a little too parochial? |
I think there's a lot about that in this thread.
It's really not terribly clear what these Canadian instructors are looking for in the Alps. Is it really the gnarliest lines? (if that's the case, Cham might actually be a more desirable candidate than LG, for example) Or is it more like the mega linked resort they can zip through at warp speed? (3V, Verbier?)
Everybody is recommending the "unique" off-piste, guided runs. But consider the opportunities that exist in Canada, it doesn't seem quite so obvious to me that's what these guys may wish to see, which must be distinctly different from what they have at home...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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JimW, Not you're not, heli-skiing takes place form the Espace St Bernardo which is the ski area shared by La Rosiere and La Thuile, so no flying required, you ski to the heli take off site. Hardly being parochial to point out that one of the best off-pite itineries in the world is accessible from La Rosiere.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| abc wrote: |
Everybody is recommending the "unique" off-piste, guided runs. But consider the opportunities that exist in Canada, it doesn't seem quite so obvious to me that's what these guys may wish to see, which must be distinctly different from what they have at home... |
I have the impression that in general in North America there is not the same opportunity for extensive adventurous lift served first-track skiing. From what I have experienced the powder gets skied out very quickly or requires quite a trek to get to and/or get back from and is restricted by gate access. Of course I may be unduly influenced by the lack of such skiing in the places I have been, such as Jackson Hole I talked about above, and I will be interested to hear if there are such places over there.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| abc wrote: |
It's really not terribly clear what these Canadian instructors are looking for in the Alps. Is it really the gnarliest lines? (if that's the case, Cham might actually be a more desirable candidate than LG, for example) Or is it more like the mega linked resort they can zip through at warp speed? (3V, Verbier?)
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See the original question:
"Interested to hear which ski area advanced / expert skiers would consider the most challenging, not just the odd couple of runs / offpiste"
So perhaps we should also be looking at Piste challenge, in which case there may be problems finding something like the hardest North American pistes. Many of the toughest European resorts are converting their hardest runs into itineraries or even off-piste, and in general the toughest slopes remain off-piste. Even such famous examples as Tortin (Verbier- now an itinerary) were never up to the toughest North American standard.
Of course several resorts have a single notorious run but this is not what was asked for.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 25-05-10 10:41; edited 1 time in total
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| abc wrote: |
Is it really the gnarliest lines? (if that's the case, Cham might actually be a more desirable candidate than LG, for example) Or is it more like the mega linked resort they can zip through at warp speed? (3V, Verbier?)
Everybody is recommending the "unique" off-piste, guided runs. But consider the opportunities that exist in Canada, it doesn't seem quite so obvious to me that's what these guys may wish to see, which must be distinctly different from what they have at home... |
have you been to LG or Verbier? 
agree however that the OP needs to find out what his buddies want to do. IMV yurp offers 2 things which you don't really get in North America
1. huge interlinked lift systems with miles and miles of pistes (tarentaise etc)
2. lifts to the top of rather unlikely looking mountains offering access to very long surprisingly remote descents (La Grave, Verbier, Cham, Alagna, Engelberg, Andermatt)
he probably needs to find out whether either or both of these things interest his pals
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Arno, good points. You could add St Anton (including all its linked areas) to (2) - many runs requiring train, bus or taxi to get back.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| snowball wrote: |
I have the impression that in general in North America there is not the same opportunity for extensive adventurous lift served first-track skiing. From what I have experienced the powder gets skied out very quickly or requires quite a trek to get to and/or get back from and is restricted by gate access. Of course I may be unduly influenced by the lack of such skiing in the places I have been, such as Jackson Hole I talked about above, and I will be interested to hear if there are such places over there. |
This is right purely by virtue of the vertical drop, lift network and terrain specifics in many N American resorts. I would say that resorts that are known for having good out of bounds terrain also have a willing and able population of locals to exploit it (like Chamonix, Engelberg). Other places there is potentially great terrain which is impacted by the lack of easy exit options e.g. Revelstoke, Kicking Horse. What you don't find over there are the mega resorts with good infrastructure that don't really feature on the radar as off piste meccas e.g. La Plagne, Alpe D'Huez. Whistler is IMV the nearest thing in N America to a Euro resort and is characterised by hordes hiking out from the Blackcomb glacier or past Symphony Bowl etc as soon as conditions permit.
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My 3p worth here. One of the party for our 3V this year was an American chap living over here. He's from Jackson. This was only his second time skiing in Europe, he'd been to Espace K a few years ago. He's not an instructor, but he's been skiing for 40 years since a child and is no slouch in any conditions. Things he loved about skiing in the large European resorts, and that were very different to USA/Canada; the MASSIVE amount of terrain available and the sense of distance traveled in a day, the spectacular scenery (360 roof of the world views etc), the easy lift-linked access to off-piste, sense of freedom to pop-off side piste and between pistes, the preponderance of 80's fashion, and the mountain restaurants. What he didn't like was the poky accommodation, but that was small beer compared to the upsides. He likened the difference between European/Stateside resorts to the difference between European/Stateside cities i.e. very ordered blocks Stateside, very easy to get around but boring and predictable. Europe the complete opposite.
In short, I wouldn't worry too much. Choose a few large resorts, book some guides, and chill out. Your friends will love it wherever they are.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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1969jma, Surely if coming from Canada they will be limited to major international airports? In that case Grenoble/Innsbruck etc will be useless. If they are here for 6 weeks, then they can easily do a really good tour. I would suggest a week/10 days in each of the following:
Arlborg area
Oisan area (LG, LDA,ADH + SC not strictly speaking in Les Oisans)
Bourg St Maurice with a hire car when they could ski the whole Les Arcs/La Plagne + Val D/Tignes + La Ros/La Thuile etc.
Engleberg etc in Switzerland (maybe a visit to Zermatt because it's a must regardless of the skiing)
UCPA in France is cheap and cheerful but I don't know about Austria or Switzerland in that respect, but there must be youth hostels all over. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| davidl wrote: |
| JimW, Not you're not, heli-skiing takes place form the Espace St Bernardo which is the ski area shared by La Rosiere and La Thuile, so no flying required, you ski to the heli take off site. Hardly being parochial to point out that one of the best off-pite itineries in the world is accessible from La Rosiere. |
Thanks for the links.
Evolution 2 site is a big FAIL for me.
From the video on the ESF site (which one would assume is indicative of the experience on offer), the heli-skiing looks a tremendous day out, with unbelievable scenery, fabulous snow and lots of turns.
But challenge? I skied steeper and more challenging in the Brecon Beacons this winter.
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I think budget and skiers intentions need a bit of clarifying. Road trips sound great but six + weeks of car hire doesn't come cheap nor do numerous seperate lift passes. Accommodation can also be negotiated down if staying in one place for a long time. A seasons lift pass offers great value and often includes extra resorts though if you don't have a car you need to have other resorts that you can get to by public transport. In my experience Switzerland is usually better than France from this point of view. Guides certainly don't come cheap
I liked La Ros when I skied it and found some of the off piste a lot of fun and easy to access, not sure if Canadians cross the pond to try European heliskiing though.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
| davidl wrote: |
| JimW, Not you're not, heli-skiing takes place form the Espace St Bernardo which is the ski area shared by La Rosiere and La Thuile, so no flying required, you ski to the heli take off site. Hardly being parochial to point out that one of the best off-pite itineries in the world is accessible from La Rosiere. |
Thanks for the links.
Evolution 2 site is a big FAIL for me.
From the video on the ESF site (which one would assume is indicative of the experience on offer), the heli-skiing looks a tremendous day out, with unbelievable scenery, fabulous snow and lots of turns.
But challenge? I skied steeper and more challenging in the Brecon Beacons this winter. |
Fail from me too. I would be very interested to know what the average gradient is on a 20 kilometre route too, I can't imagine it is a lot...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Mount Everest is 8848m ASL, so a 20km run down from there to sea level (if such were possible) has an average slope of arcsine(8.848/20) which is about 26 degrees.
The Matterhorn is 4478m ASL, so a 20km run down from there to sea level has an average slope of arcsine(4.478/20) which is about 13 degrees.
The largest lift served skiable descent I know of in the Matterhorn area would be Klein Matterhorn at 3883m to Zermatt at 1608m (Cervinia is higher at 2006m). So a 20km run there from top to bottom has an average slope of arcsine((3883-1608)/20) which is about 7 degrees. I do not know the actual length of that run.
Note - all heights taken from Wikipedia.
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Poster: A snowHead
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clarky999, Mike Pow, FAIL for me too, I don't see why you'd bother with a helo to access that stuff... (I don't know why you'd use that video if you were trying to sell Evo2 either - poorly filmed (burned out) and not terribly exciting skiing).
Tbar, I would hope they'd have scoped out required budget in advance... 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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under a new name,
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Tbar, I would hope they'd have scoped out required budget in advance...
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Absolutely but the OP was asking for a resort initially but a lot of the suggestions have focused on multi resort trips, whether these are practical or not would depend on the budget available.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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brian
brian
Guest
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BobinCH, that also has the added benefit from a snow-chaser's pov of getting you both sides of Mt Blanc.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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T Bar, true.
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