 Poster: A snowHead
|
| beanie1 wrote: |
Does that not result in the weight being back / uphill?
This is a tehcnique I've never seen before, and I think would probably be better demonstrated! |
Yes if the pole is planted, rather than lightly touched.
The aim is to use the poles to achieve lateral balance, with the hands forward of the feet throughout the turn.
Hopefully the previous answer give a clearer idea.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Hurtle wrote: |
Mike Pow, mmm. Very nicely described.  |
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Ah ok, I think I get it now. So not really a pole plant as such, more poles used as outriggers for balance. Still like to see how this would work in bumps though! I don't think I'd want to take away a downhill pole plant in bumps - although I'll do no pole plant bumps skiing as a drill, I wouldn't want to do it all the time.
I was on an instructor course once and we were being filmed doing one ski skiing, with poles. Everyone without exception was seen in the video subconciously lightly touching the snow with their uphill pole - similar idea?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| beanie1 wrote: |
| Ah ok, I think I get it now. So not really a pole plant as such, more poles used as outriggers for balance. Still like to see how this would work in bumps though! I don't think I'd want to take away a downhill pole plant in bumps - although I'll do no pole plant bumps skiing as a drill, I wouldn't want to do it all the time. |
Think less of taking away the pole plant and more of initiating all turns with both feet, with the hands - whether the poles are dragged lightly or the poles touched lightly - travelling forward of the feet and synchronised with the feet.
This applies all over the mountain, in all terrain, in all snow conditions.
Momentum is slowed by turning the feet across the fall line until you hit the sweet spot. The sweet spot is where you feel comfortable flattening your skis and letting them free fall and accelerate in the fall line before turning in the opoosite direction.
The degree of turning is enough to manage your momentum and choose the best line.
I describe this as 'embracing rather than bracing' and results in a very fluid, almost effortless run because you're working with the mountain rather than against it.
| Quote: |
| I was on an instructor course once and we were being filmed doing one ski skiing, with poles. Everyone without exception was seen in the video subconciously lightly touching the snow with their uphill pole - similar idea? |
If that's what it took to remain balanced, then yes. If it was there as a crutch for the missing ski, then no.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
If you wantz a foine pole plant, you'm be needing ter get yer little poles planted afore easter. About one span apart in parallel lines in a well tilled plot. Give 'em little blood fish and bone meal 'afore the first full moon and then water as needed until they be 110cm. Thin 'em and weed regularly until just afore Michaelmas.
Follow this advice and 'ee should be 'avin a lovely row of pole plants as 'll deloight any skier as sees 'em.
As fer carvin'. Carvin' should be finished afore now and all the little carves be with their mothers, so get 'ee out an' be a plantin' them poles.
The answer loiz in the zoil.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mike Pow,
(i'm not arguing by the way) - if they are for lateral balance, then the poles could be inclined in the lateral plane (which would increase lateral balance) BUT you just don't see anyone having them inclined in this way - they always drop vertically down from the hands when looking straight on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
The pole plant is an essential technique. To perfect it, it is necessary to practice it without poles.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Interesting topic. I haven't had a lesson for 15 years, ie BC (before carvers) and having foregotten most of what I was taught, I have found myself occasionally trying to recreate my memory of pole planting but to no avail. I always find myself traiiling my uphill pole on or just above the snow immediately after the turn. Perhaps it's just natural. Also I never could ski comfortably with my feet together!
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
My god have i started something?!
Mike I'm sure you re right but visualising it sitting at my computer desk it just not happening....?! I imagine that this is something for faster - as in the rhythm of the the turns fast not the speed fast - and carved turns?
edit - having re read it..... From what I can visualise doing funny dances at my desk it would help with getting a decent "down" after the turn, which is somethign I got told off about last week (I needed to make more effort to come down, I want to say crouch but its the wrong word, to lower my centre of gravity and actually give me somewhere to go "up" into the next turn....). I ll try and rememebr it next year 
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
I agree with rob@rar. For most turns, pole plant starts at end of turn and gets planted or touches at transition. The timing in the turn is the same for steeps, moguls, short-swings, gs, hooning as wells as casual mincing about. Helps rhythm, helps create counter to redirect centre of mass, helps recentering, helps get forwards and down the hill, helps give the body proprioceptive info etc etc
In slalom skiing, you sometimes see the high hand to crossblock (if done properly most of the turn is done above the gate so the crossblock is taking place near the end of the turn) which then blends into the "pole-plant" = recentering at transition (sometimes known as phase 0 of the turn).
Pole planting late (ie after transition) is a good drill to help get forwards/down the hill/inclined (extending onto pole plant). Can even be done Norwegian style. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| ddraver wrote: |
Hi Guys
I was talking to a friend of mine who started skiing last week and on their second lesson were onto parallel turns (which seemed very rapid to me but then they are both good sportsmen?!)
However the biggest thing was that the instructor told them that pole planting was an outdated technique and that they should nt do it!! Having returned from St Anton myself where ive been a'planting down the powder and mogul runs that I'm so fond of I found this very surprising but then when I watched some of the 2010 olympics slalom on youtube I noticed that they did nt do it either, although the moguls guys did (phew). Obviously the GS or faster guys dont pole plant...
So who is right or is there no easy answer to this now?
DaveK |
Good skiers should be able to straightline a steep bump field without poles.
The instructor is right.
Poles are for losers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
Mike Pow, well we also did the drill with no poles and still managed, so it must have been the former I think.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| sev112 wrote: |
Mike Pow,
(i'm not arguing by the way) - if they are for lateral balance, then the poles could be inclined in the lateral plane (which would increase lateral balance) BUT you just don't see anyone having them inclined in this way - they always drop vertically down from the hands when looking straight on. |
A couple of shots of my students to illustrate what I'm attempting to teach. None of these examples are spot on, it's a work in progress for all of us
Matthew Hill-Smith, 50
Grand Hirafu, Hokkaido, Japan
Greg Heptonstall, 49
Grand Hirafu, Hokkaido, Japan
Filip Beuls, 36
Grand Hirafu, Hokkaido, Japan
Tim Banks, 48
Grand Hirafu, Hokkaido, Japan
Alex Lovelock, 13
Rusutsu, Hokkaido, Japan
Alex Lovelock, 13
Rusutsu, Hokkaido, Japan
Andy Laidlaw, 53
Kiroro, Hokkaido, Japan
Yours truly, 42
Moiwa, Hokkaido, Japan
Ian Mackenzie, 36
Kiroro, Hokkaido, Japan
Ian Mackenzie, 36
Kiroro, Hokkaido, Japan
Different ability levels at different stages of their time with me. What's consistent, and what hopefully can be seen from these pics, is movement, balance and enjoyment.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Wed 24-03-10 10:24; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Mike Pow, Christ that snow looks good.
I don't quite get what you're trying to show in the pictures though - something about having the poles more horizontal and trailing on the snow?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| clarky999 wrote: |
| Mike Pow, Christ that snow looks good. |
The best
| Quote: |
| I don't quite get what you're trying to show in the pictures though - something about having the poles more horizontal and trailing on the snow? |
Responding to sev112's post that nobody skis with poles in the lateral plane. I advocate using the poles as an outrigger in the lateral plane to aid balance, which in turn encourages the skier to keep the hands forward.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Ah fair enough, I was thinking it must have been more complex than that. I think I've always done that anyway without consciously thinking about it/being told to
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| sev112 wrote: |
| then the poles could be inclined in the lateral plane (which would increase lateral balance) BUT you just don't see anyone having them inclined in this way - they always drop vertically down from the hands when looking straight on. |
Although I have a different take on pole planting to Mike Pow I don't agree that poles always drop vertically down. It's not what I teach, nor how I ski (examples 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.) For me the pole plant is invaluable as a timing aid and helps to stabilise for/aft and lateral balance at transition, as well as the poles generally being good for lateral balance and awareness at other points in the turn, as can be seen in my photos.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
I have just spoken with MrsRH and she suggested that the instructor in the OP either is talking ........ or has a problem with his language technique. I tend to agree with rob@rar, and make the plant instinctive. I always plant a pole even when I dont have one!! By that I mean if I get the skiboards out I initiate a turn with an imaginanery "plant".
The reason I do this is the way I was taught many, many, many years ago! The first instructor I had on a school trip said it very wisely IMO! Imagine you are driving a car, when you turn, what do you do? After many wrong answers we said "indicate"! Those skiers behind you do not know when the skier in front is going to turn, plant your pole as the "indicator" those behind can make the appropriate line! I have to say it stayed in my memory all these years and plant to this day!
Simple analogy but it stayed with me and so it worked!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Roy Hockley wrote: |
The reason I do this is the way I was taught many, many, many years ago! The first instructor I had on a school trip said it very wisely IMO! Imagine you are driving a car, when you turn, what do you do? After many wrong answers we said "indicate"! Those skiers behind you do not know when the skier in front is going to turn, plant your pole as the "indicator" those behind can make the appropriate line! I have to say it stayed in my memory all these years and plant to this day!
Simple analogy but it stayed with me and so it worked! |
Bingo.
Using your car analogy, I was taught the following sequence when learning to drive:
mirror, signal, manouevre
When teaching skiing I advocate:
mirror, manouevre, signal (pole touch if needed)
And for me it's a pole touch or tap, not plant. Too many skiers forcefully plant the pole in the snow as if they're spear fishing or planting a flag on the top of Everest. This breaks the flow of the turn in my eyes and can lead to imbalances throughout the turn shape.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Mike Pow, I'd love to, but I very rarely get home to see my parents. Weekends are kind of committed for the foreseeable future, but if you're at home next winter I'll keep my fingers crossed for more great snow on the Beacons and will make the point of getting down there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
Sounds good
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mike Pow, now you've posted the photos I totally see where you're coming from, and it is something that many skiers do instinctively, as Rob so nicely demonstrates above.
But I don't think it replaces the pole plant, I think you can do both (go a few frames back and Rob will have demonstrated this too).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| beanie1 wrote: |
| (go a few frames back and Rob will have demonstrated this too). |
Something like this?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| beanie1 wrote: |
Mike Pow, now you've posted the photos I totally see where you're coming from, and it is something that many skiers do instinctively, as Rob so nicely demonstrates above.
But I don't think it replaces the pole plant, I think you can do both (go a few frames back and Rob will have demonstrated this too). |
Cool.
Not advocating replacing the pole touch. You can and need to do both. The sequence and sensitivity is my slant on it
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
imho its not clear cut to pole plant or not and theres several different techniques around. From ESF where planting poles was core to Ali Ross who was more focussed on carving and angulation with poles used almost as a balance aid. I tend to find my technique changes according to terrain and conditions - wide fast reds - no plant and (I like to think) loads of angulation and carve, where I need to control my speed more - narrower, steeper, bumpier etc, then out come the pole plants.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
mikeh, I agree the utility of a pole plant varies with terrain, speed, turn shape, snow, etc., although I now find that even if I'm not actually making any effort to make a pole plant my hands twitch at the appropriate time. The main thing is to have a skilful pole plant available to you for times when you really need it, and knowing when to back off and not let it interrupt the flow of your turns.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Roy Hockley wrote: |
I have just spoken with MrsRH and she suggested that the instructor in the OP either is talking ........ or has a problem with his language technique. I tend to agree with rob@rar, and make the plant instinctive. I always plant a pole even when I dont have one!! By that I mean if I get the skiboards out I initiate a turn with an imaginanery "plant".
The reason I do this is the way I was taught many, many, many years ago! The first instructor I had on a school trip said it very wisely IMO! Imagine you are driving a car, when you turn, what do you do? After many wrong answers we said "indicate"! Those skiers behind you do not know when the skier in front is going to turn, plant your pole as the "indicator" those behind can make the appropriate line! I have to say it stayed in my memory all these years and plant to this day!
Simple analogy but it stayed with me and so it worked! |
Does this mean a plot plant provides absolutely no mechanical assistance at all when making a turn? The exception, from what I've read, being steeps and moguls when a different type of pole plant is done.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
PisteHead, what do you mean by "mechanical assistance"?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| PisteHead, what do you mean by "mechanical assistance"? |
Rob@rar, You can probably tell I'm a beginner. By mechanical assistance I mean does a skier plant the pole firmly so that they can actually push on the pole or lean on it? Or is the pole plant just done for turn rhythm and spotting the pivot point for a turn?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
PisteHead, nope. NO mechanical assistance. Ever. Not even in steeps and especially not in Moguls (you'd probably break your wrist).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| PisteHead, nope. NO mechanical assistance. Ever. Not even in steeps and especially not in Moguls (you'd probably break your wrist). |
That's a relief. In other sports where the term plant is encountered there normally is a solid firm plant as in when the pole vaulter plants his pole firmly before take-off or when a long jumper plants the take-off foot firmly on the take-off board.
I had horrible visions of everything going wrong on turn initiation and skewering myself on my own pole stuck in the snow like a stake.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
under a new name,
| Quote: |
NO mechanical assistance. Ever. Not even in steeps
|
Mmm I was taught to use a double pole plant sometimes on steeper slopes to give a bit of assistance with jump turns.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
T Bar
Well, there are exceptions. If you are trying to descend a steep slope slowly with positive braking jump turns then you could plant both poles a bit like you did when you were doing beginners' lessons so that you roate your upper body to face strongly down the slope and then use both arms to take the weight off your feet a bit, so that you can jump\swivel round to the opposite direction without risking getting stuck going too far and hence too fast on a steep slope.
On a reasonable slope where you are travelling faster, ramming your pole into the deck doesn't achieve much. Trying to support your body weight on a stationary pole while travelling at a decent pace is asking a bit much of your wrist bones.
ddraver
From what I can visualise doing funny dances at my desk it would help with getting a decent "down" after the turn, which is somethign I got told off about last week (I needed to make more effort to come down, I want to say crouch but its the wrong word, to lower my centre of gravity and actually give me somewhere to go "up" into the next turn....).
Imagine both arms in plaster casts. Now how are you going to plant the pole ? Before the turn is after the turn, just not the same turn. The 'crouch' could be achieved by bending the knees ? this will bring the tip of your pre positioned pole into contact with the snow, now change edges and push to pressur round the turn, once round the turn, pole plant with the knees and off we go again. If you try to keep the pole plant light, it will counteract the tendency to lean into the turn which would spoil your edging. The transistions can be gentle and smooth (gs) or sudden and dynamic (bumps).
Instructors get you to plant the pole in particular positions to get your body in the right place, for the cirucmstances.
OP
Instructors speak using words. This is to get you to perform physical actions so that your body learns to ski. One instructor may tell you to plant the pole solidly and anothe may tell you to keep your poles perfectly still. They can both be right.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
T Bar, you lack commitment.
Hmmm. though, yeah, maybe, if it's steep and heavy you might use a pole to help push out, yeah fair enough.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
