 Poster: A snowHead
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| bum wrote: |
| Thousands more will also give up skiing after their first week because the snow plough hurts their knees too much. |
Few skiers should be relying on a plough as their main method of steering their skis at the end of their first week. Of the learn to ski clients I've taught this winter the majority were beginning to move on to plough-parallel turns, and even rudimentary parallel turns, within 6-8 hours of instruction.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hurtle, I have seen a few things recently suggesting tactical A-framing under certain circumstances. I am not sure - outside the perfect world of Warren Smith videos, that an omnipresent H frame is always 100% achievable, or even desirable 
Mike Pow, nicely put.
George W. Bash, I think more advanced ski teaching has changed a lot in the last 10 years. Perhaps driven by the freeride style? Not sure about the kids/beginners.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| Hurtle, I have seen a few things recently suggesting tactical A-framing under certain circumstances. |
Useful for fine-tuning turn shape, but not if it compromises biomechanical efficiency in high speed turns or means knee injury is more likely.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I'm guessing they weren't being taught on that blue slope? There's your problem: keen but clueless skiers taking their friends on to terrain which is too steep for them, resulting in injury. What's wrong with practicing your newfound skills on the same slopes that you were taken on by your instructor? |
Actually rob@rar, she had progressed onto a red slope with the instructor in the morning, but had the accident on an unfamiliar blue.
It's not always easy to know what terrain is what from a map. Some blues can be harder than some reds, and it all depends on the conditions at the time. Sometimes late in the day the snow gets cut up more than you'd expect, or a bit slushier, or even icier.
As you know, it's not always the steepness that causes accidents. Sometimes people are too brave or too stupid, but remember sometimes you are just unlucky.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
George W. Bash, I think more advanced ski teaching has changed a lot in the last 10 years. Perhaps driven by the freeride style? Not sure about the kids/beginners. |
Lots of progression in skiing style and effectiveness, not all necessarily "taught". I think instructor orgs are going to have to get to grips with rocker skis and "skurfing" turns soon
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| fatbob wrote: |
| ... "skurfing" turns ... |
?
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| fatbob wrote: |
| ... get to grips with rocker skis ... |
I've never skied a rockered ski. What changes to technique do they need?
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 22-03-10 17:47; edited 1 time in total
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| bum wrote: |
| Actually rob@rar, she had progressed onto a red slope with the instructor in the morning, but had the accident on an unfamiliar blue. |
The instructor was taking clients on to a red piste even though they were struggling to master plough turns? I'm shocked. Rather than banning plough turns you should be campaigning to have that ski school banned!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| bum wrote: |
| ... but remember sometimes you are just unlucky. |
Indeed. Sometimes accidents are just accidents. From what you've said I think your friend would have fared better if she had fallen on to her hip rather than on to her bum (apologies for the pun), a strategy which I try to reinforce whenever I teach beginners.
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She could do a snowplough turn - the instructor knew that. She just didn't manage it when she had the accident.
Well, the red piste was very much a blue; colors can sometimes be quite random. I guess I could be campaigning to have the runs all properly marked, each section with their respective gradients too. But that's another discussion altogether!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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bum, that discussion has been had several times here  Out of interest, what resort?
To me it sounds like you are reaching the wrong conclusions about technique as a result of your friend's accident.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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We were in Nendaz last week.
rob@rar, you might be right about my conclusions, but it's only natural after an accident to think 'what could have been done differently?' And the question I would ask is 'if she had learnt how to hockey stop, would that have prevented her falling in the way she did?'
The answer is of course, who knows?
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| bum wrote: |
We were in Nendaz last week.
rob@rar, you might be right about my conclusions, but it's only natural after an accident to think 'what could have been done differently?' And the question I would ask is 'if she had learnt how to hockey stop, would that have prevented her falling in the way she did?'
The answer is of course, who knows? |
Yes, reflecting after an accident is only natural. I think my conclusion (on what you have said) is that instilling in beginners the need to fall sideways on to their hip rather than backwards on to their backside is a really useful thing to do. I guess that if she hadn't develop the skills to have a reliable snowplough it would have equally been beyond her to have a reliable hockey stop to use when she felt she was out of control.
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You know it makes sense.
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bum, if it's of any interest, I seem to remember reading a book by Harald Harb where he detailed a teaching method which avoided teaching the use of a snow-plough.
I didn't actually read the section in much detail, but I think I have the book at home, so will try and dig it out.
I'm no expert, but I guess that the fact that 99.9% of instructors still teach a plough, must mean that it's the best (or least worst) method of teaching.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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IMO snow ploughing is a nightmare on the knees but when absolutely needed its the best and safest failsafe method of scrubbing off and controlling high speed down 2m wide steep bumpy tracks when approaching a team of slower skier/ boarders in front, eg Vallon D'Arby, Verbier traverse, a change rather than doing the bottom gully.
How else could you scrub off speed so quickly when bouncing along down a narrow icy track - a series of perfect parallels with a 100m tree-filled ravine 1/2 metre away? Yes I know we can all do that, and put in 10-15 super-cool turns but I dont think so..............when all else fails its SP time!!
So for me - a bit like an emergency stop, they teach you this in your car/ motorbike test, 99.9% of the time not needed but when it is (and it generally hurts) it there for use, thigh-burn and all....................... That's why I believe its taught, if you can do it on day 1, you can ALWAYS stop whatever the situation.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
And it's unfair to call everyone who has a skiing accident 'daft'. Sometimes they are just unlucky.
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Yes, I'd agree with that. However, I DO call it daft when people get dragged round the mountain by their mates who can't relate their level of learning to the terrain they can manage. I've had quite a bit of practise at this recently, in a ski domain I know like the back of my hand, and I've had to think very, very, hard about where to take people who are at an early stage of learning. It helps enormously that I'm a beginner snowboarder; I know exactly - because it happened to me very, very, recently) what it feels like to stand at the top of a supposedly "easy" slope and be really concerned about whether I can get down it without serious injury.
Anyone skiing in the afternoon with beginners (who will be tired...) should only take them on the slopes they've been on with their instructors.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Snow ploughing is just a skiing technique. A beginner using it on a nursery slope is perfectly safe. On a green run it depends on how much the beginner has mastered the skill. On a steep blue it can be unwise. On a red the beginner is clearly asking for trouble where it can be a good way to commit suicide to snow plough down a black piste.
Children are in a different category as due to the shorter skis and much lower weight many of them have no problem snow ploughing down black runs.
One does work on the knees hard while snow ploughing so has to take it easy and not to hurry up. To snow plough in a slope steeper than one's ability and with tired knees is clearly a personal problem and got nothing to do with the technique itself.
If one learns only to do parallel turns and does not know how to slow down or stop by snow ploughing he/she will get more serious injury due to the high speed in parallel turns.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If your looking at the differences between a snow ploughs and a hockey stop it simply boils down to: Hockey stops allow you to stop. Snow ploughs allow you to stop and also to control your speed. Try teaching a beginner how to control their speed down the mountain when they only know stopping and going at full speed, I guarantee you there would be more accidents were it taught that way.
Not to mention that a snow plough is a necessary technique for even advanced skiers (along with side slipping)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Markymark29 wrote: |
How else could you scrub off speed so quickly when bouncing along down a narrow icy track - a series of perfect parallels with a 100m tree-filled ravine 1/2 metre away? Yes I know we can all do that, and put in 10-15 super-cool turns but I dont think so..............when all else fails its SP time!! |
Pivot is the word you're looking for. Another skill oft-overlooked by the 2-lessons and now on a red piste brigade!
bum Not everyone who has a ski accident is daft, however I believe in this instance your friends were. You're obviously not going to accept this as truth though and would rather discuss technique. The only technique your friends need is to listen and practice on a slope appropriate to their ability. I just simply cannot comprehend how you can claim that they had the ability and yet this happened. It's just illogical.
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| kittya wrote: |
| queen bodecia wrote: |
| I've seen someone doing controlled slow snowplough turns on a black piste. They must have had knees of steel!!! |
My daughter used to do that! Snowplough queeen
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Have seen whole snakes of very little people (5-7 years old at a guess!) doing that as they neatly follow their instructor down a black!
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Alexandra, with you. But in my early days - been there too.
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| Quote: |
Have seen whole snakes of very little people (5-7 years old at a guess!) doing that as they neatly follow their instructor down a black!
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OK if you're 6, but the older I get, the harder I find it to do an efficient snowplough. When faced with a narrow and rather icy track a few weeks ago, I found the snowplough just wasn't doing it for me - time for pivot turns, which just about did it, though it wasn't too pretty.
I found snowploughing on cross country skis very, very, difficult - the attempt certainly uncovered the holes in my snowplough technique It's not possible to resort to the equivalent of hockey stops until you are seriously competent on cross-country skis. It was scary knowing I couldn't stop - another good way to put yourself into the mindset of a beginner skier.
The most impressive snowploughs are the ones done straight down a black piste by pisteurs with a casualty in a stretcher. One is concerned for the person in the stretcher, but enjoying the spectacle of those quads of iron.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Just reading through this thread, I wonder has anyone experimented with teaching side slide rather than plow? i.e. day one beginner stands with skis across the (very gentle) slope, and (naturally, but with help from instructor) holds themselves from sliding by digging in their edges. instructor gets them sliding under control sideways down the slope and coming to a stop by more emphasised digging in their edges. progress to travelling across the slope by varying the angle, through 'falling leaf' and eventually to letting the skis point down the fall line.
Snowboarders seem to learn this way, and we have two edges to their one.
just a thought? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Axsman, yes I was learning to side slip practically from day 1
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Freddie Paellahead, Interesting. and in particular your feeling that it left you disadvantaged on cat tracks (which I agree is where snowplough comes in useful). so if you had learned to slow down with a snowplough early on, but AFTER learning the sides slide edge control do you think that would have been the best of both worlds?
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Mind you you don't need to be snowploughing to fall in a 'let's twist the knees in the direction they'd rather not go' way. While I was playing in the deep stuff this year I ended up face down with my tips out either side and the tails locked together in a reverse type snowplough behind me. I found lying there my legs were fine it was when I moved that my hips and knees protested. The answer to getting up was to roll onto my back, but did the knees and hip protest in the process - is there an way that's easy on the joints to get up from that position?
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
The most impressive snowploughs are the ones done straight down a black piste by pisteurs with a casualty in a stretcher. One is concerned for the person in the stretcher, but enjoying the spectacle of those quads of iron
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pam w, I hate to pop your bubble but the rescue stretcher has a breaking device on it and the so called quads of iron don't actually do all the work. But the snowplough like the sideslip are essential skills that should be taught and practiced at all levels.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Sarge McSarge, regardless, those things have a fair weight on them including passenger, and having seen a few people stretchered down I've got a lot of respect for our patrollers - for anyone that knows Fernie, a buddy popped his shoulder halfway down steep and deep on the wettest of cementy pow days and got stretchered out through steep bumps.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Yes these guys have to snow plough at least some of the way. Respect!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I snowplough multiple times on any skiing day. Parallel stopping from a slower speed or on a shallow slope is much more time and energy consuming. The snowplough is also by far the best way of controlling speed and direction when trying to ski slowly on a shallow slope.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Alexandra wrote: |
| bum Not everyone who has a ski accident is daft, however I believe in this instance your friends were. You're obviously not going to accept this as truth though and would rather discuss technique. The only technique your friends need is to listen and practice on a slope appropriate to their ability. I just simply cannot comprehend how you can claim that they had the ability and yet this happened. It's just illogical. |
Well you are entitled to your opinion, but I feel that for someone who was in her third week of skiing and been cruising blues all day, going down another albeit unfamiliar blue slope was perfectly doable for her.
It's not illogical. I had a wipe out last week (my first in about 3 years) and it wasn't on one of the black slopes, itinery runs, or doing a jump. It happened on an easy red! Just lost concentration at the end of the day for a split second, caught an edge on God knows what and fell ass over head. Fortunately I wasn't hurt, but it just shows that these things just happen.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
| ... get to grips with rocker skis ... |
I've never skied a rockered ski. What changes to technique do they need? |
No changes that I've noticed, but it's not what they need rather than what they allow. I don't think many high cert instructors will have much experience on rockered skis, interestingly - but if you think of it on the basis it lets you change elements of your skiing that're in place in variable snow to keep the tips up and in control, or dealing with odd conditions, then you get quite a lot of extra things to play with with the goal of more efficient skiing.
(disclaimer: I don't think more experience on rockered skis makes me more qualified than higher cert instructors. Just that it's an area probably worth exploring.)
[/threaddrift]
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| bum wrote: |
| I'm now convinced of this, having seen two friends in as many trips damage their knees whilst falling in the snow plough position. They were both beginners in their first week, learning the snow plough and managed to pick up speed on a slightly steeper blue. Their natural reaction, like most beginners, was to fall backwards, whilst in the snow plough position. |
| bum wrote: |
| for someone who was in her third week of skiing and been cruising blues all day, going down another albeit unfamiliar blue slope was perfectly doable for her. |
I'm a bit confused. Your friend who lost control of her snowplough and sat backwards was a beginner or was in her third week of skiing and was happy to cruise blues?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| DaveC wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
| ... get to grips with rocker skis ... |
I've never skied a rockered ski. What changes to technique do they need? |
No changes that I've noticed, but it's not what they need rather than what they allow. I don't think many high cert instructors will have much experience on rockered skis, interestingly - but if you think of it on the basis it lets you change elements of your skiing that're in place in variable snow to keep the tips up and in control, or dealing with odd conditions, then you get quite a lot of extra things to play with with the goal of more efficient skiing.
(disclaimer: I don't think more experience on rockered skis makes me more qualified than higher cert instructors. Just that it's an area probably worth exploring.)
[/threaddrift] |
Thanks, he said drifting along quite happily. So would it be fair to say that they give you more tactical choices (ie what you can do in the terrain and snow that you're in) rather than requiring you to ski differently? I'd like to give rockered skis a try one day.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| bum wrote: |
| for someone who was in her third week of skiing and been cruising blues all day, going down another albeit unfamiliar blue slope was perfectly doable for her. |
I'm a bit confused. Your friend who lost control of her snowplough and sat backwards was a beginner or was in her third week of skiing and was happy to cruise blues? |
I'm confused in the same way. What were we actually invited to discuss in the first instance?
Plus - if she was in her third week of skiing, had been taking lessons and was happy to ski blues, I would have expected her to be doing at least plough parallels and well able to turn to control her speed and stop by turning into the hill. I got the original impression she was going straight down the flow line in a braking plough when she fell and that it was the use of a plough to brake going straightish downhill we were considering.
I think I will give up on this thread and have a wee lie down to recover. 
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| rob@rar wrote: |
Thanks, he said drifting along quite happily. So would it be fair to say that they give you more tactical choices (ie what you can do in the terrain and snow that you're in) rather than requiring you to ski differently? I'd like to give rockered skis a try one day. |
I think they give you more technical choices too, since you're suddenly biomechanically allowed to ski differently.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| The answer to getting up was to roll onto my back, but did the knees and hip protest in the process - is there an way that's easy on the joints to get up from that position? |
Not with your dignity intact! 
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| bum wrote: |
| I'm now convinced of this, having seen two friends in as many trips damage their knees whilst falling in the snow plough position. They were both beginners in their first week, learning the snow plough and managed to pick up speed on a slightly steeper blue. Their natural reaction, like most beginners, was to fall backwards, whilst in the snow plough position. |
| bum wrote: |
| for someone who was in her third week of skiing and been cruising blues all day, going down another albeit unfamiliar blue slope was perfectly doable for her. |
I'm a bit confused. Your friend who lost control of her snowplough and sat backwards was a beginner or was in her third week of skiing and was happy to cruise blues? |
Can't you read rob - she was in her 15th year on the circuit!
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FAQ
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