Off Piste Insurance cover "without a guide" ?

A snowHead

For what it covered, BMC annual worldwide cover was not ridiculously expensive when I had it a few years ago - covered almost anything you could think of doing up to an altitude of about 7000M and not jumping out of helicopters before they have landed (which I decided I could live with!). Thankfully didn't have need to try out the cover but a mountaineering friend was with someone on a trip who did need to and says they were excellent.

A snowHead

I wonder what counts as "jumping out of helicopters before they have landed ". On a Ski Club of GB holiday to Alagna we were dropped high on a Monte Rosa slope where the helicopter had to just rest the front end of the runners on the snow and hover with the back ends in the air while we jumped (a short way) out.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I have had the confirmation from the Ski Club insurance that Back country skiing is covered:

Hi David

I have heard from Perkins Slade on behalf of the Underwriter – they consider that there are 2 types of Backcountry skiing – and will cover backcountry skiing on category 1 and backcountry skiing with ski-mountaineering as category 2.

Kind regards

Moira Thornhill
Manager - Direct Sales
PJ Hayman & Co Ltd

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I'm with Direct Travel and looking around for when my renewal comes up. Regarding off piste cover (and skiing in general actually) their wording is as follows:-

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

VolklAttivaS5, good on you, looking forward to hearing the result.

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How do they distinguish "ski touring" from "ski mountaineering?"

Not asking anyone in particular, just a rhetorical thing. Cheers for looking this one up. The more clarity on this one people have, the better.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

gorilla, good question: I'm guessing abbing into Voute came under ski mountaineering Little Angel

Mind you they (Direct) certainly don't cover ice climbing either.

Last season I didn't bother with an insurance company as such, however, this was an informed choice based on quite a few factors and isn't a recommendation.

After all it is free

VolklAttivaS5, likewise, looking forward to hearing the answer. Never got a remotely sensible (Europe-focussed) answer from dogtag. I just got fed up with trying to explaining that the resorts didn't have "boundaries" and that there was always some level of avalanche warning. And I never did manage (in several calls) to speak to anyone who ever skied anywhere, and who could do anything other than repeat the same old same old. They promised to consult underwriters but I never got a reply, so gave up on them.

Direct Travel's premium was reasonable at £89 last year I think (Europe annual policy). Snowcard's website has got that many options but I think I've found what I want. The premium with them is £247 again for annual insurance in Europe. Makes you wonder what the difference is in that case, or are Snowcard just more expensive? I know I have heard good reports about Snowcard on here before so they could be a contender for next year's policy. Also that was for Level 4 which is probably more cover than what I currently have with DT.

The Snowcard definition of my query is nice and specific

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Not a lot of difference between Snowcard Level 3 and Level 4 actually, £227 as opposed to £247.

Anyway let's see what DT have to say about the avy risk question.

VolklAttivaS5, we used snowcard for years. We had two claims in that time - one when my daughter in law did her knee, in Les Gets, and another when we lost half the roof of our house in the UK, in a freak tornado. On both occasions they were excellent. The only reason we don't use them now is that they only cover short trips. And we do long ones. Little Angel

You know it makes sense.

pam w, I saw earlier they do Long Stay cover but it would be no good for you guys because it has a maximum age of 45.

Sounds good then if you've had no trouble with claims in the past. You'd think if one was going to pay 250 quid a year for it mind you, it should be quibble free with claims.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

achilles, I was referring to the part about avalanche risks, which is my specific query with the Direct Travel policy as per my posts above. It states in the Snowcard info that the only time you may not be covered is in the event of an area being closed due to avalanche danger. I think that's pretty specific because an area is either open, or closed. It's a lot more specific than my current policy wording, anyway, regarding what constitutes skiing against local advice.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

VolklAttivaS5, fair enough. I had an accident that was covered by snowcard, and had very good treatment, so I want to stick with them. Having seen their latest thoughts, I think I may raise my level of activity cover.

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VolklAttivaS5, long stay is for season people - ski bums and the like. if you come back to the UK for a break that sort of cover is generally invalidated. what we need is trips of up to 60 days, however often you want, during the year. Quite a few firms do offer that, including SCGB and the mountaineering ones. It's obviously not cheap, but it's not bad value if you do a lot.

It is all a bit woolly, really. What's important is what actually happens in the event of an off piste claims. One hopes it wouldn't be like those poor lads in Tignes, where the insurance wouldn't cover the helicopter costs. But we do buy Carré Neige as well, which definitely does. Belt and braces.

We've had very few claims in many years (as we have with other cover, such as household). As ever, it would make better financial sense, long term, to carry one's own risk. But long-term might be very long-term and few of us could afford a major third-party claim against us. For all the "baggage and missed departure" stuff it's not really worth shelling out, given the inevitable excess. They only exist to make money, after all.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

pam w, ah I see, it's you coming home to the UK which makes it a problem with them then.

Have to say I do Carre Neige as well. Mainly because I often travel individually and say for example I had an accident off piste in a group of people in a lesson/course or something (not race training), they might not necessarily know who my insurance is with, unlike a married couple who ski together and would know who they did the cover with (usually). Carre Neige in my pocket with my lift pass at least simplifies matters if I'm knocked unconscious without having to look for insurance stuff in my rucksack or what have you. Hopefully that will never happen but for the small additional cost personally I think it's worth it to at least get yourself off the mountain without quibble.

Where's this example of the lads in Tignes?

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VolklAttivaS5, details of the accident and initial medical and snowcard response. There was a problem because the medical practice was reluctant to fax through details. Once snowcard had a grip on the problem, I was kept at resort until end of week. I was concerned and rang an orthopaedic consultant mate, who re-assured me that, having heard my specific details from me, and as the leg was in a cast, there was no medical reason to be worried about the delay in getting it seen to back home. Snowcard had hoped to get me on the booked plane home, but I needed space to raise my leg. Accordingly, snowcard booked 4 seats on an easyjet flight (1 for Flyer who was looking after me, and a row of 3 for me. Easyjet put us on the plane first, so we got the seats together we needed. At Gatwick, snowcard laid on a 'medical technician' to take me all the way home. I was a bit cramped in the back of a Ford Escort, but it worked out OK. Snowcard would have paid for may car to be returned to me from the airport, but Flyer drove it home for me. IIRC, they paid his rail fare back from my home to his. There was a bit of an argument about exchange rate, partly because there was some fluctuation, I think, at the time. IIRC that was resolved by presenting actual credit card bills.

[edit] My claim experience. I see I got FT rather than tourist exchange rates.

So, not hassle free - but I think they probably did as well as any company could have.

Oh, and these days I carry Carre Neige, too, when in France.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

achilles, I'd be happy with that outcome, and I agree, they probably did as well as any other company could have. I think the medical technician to take you home (despite it being in the back of a Ford Escort wink

) was brilliant service! I don't know if other companies do that too (with or without the Ford Escort) as fortunately I've only had to claim once due to a car problem and this Missed Departure.

VolklAttivaS5, Very interesting post. This topic has been around for quite some time and as someone already said, the insurance companies are very good at using loads of words to say very little that is of any use (or something to that effect). A friend of mine has been making similar enquiries, not just with snowcard, but also most of the major Insurance Brookers and there Underwriters. I was not going to mention this yet, but as VolklAttivaS5, has brought up this topic I see know harm in letting people know that they would do well to wait until I am able to post more details of the outcome of these enquiries before taking out your Ski or Snowboard Insurance for next season if you plan to go off piste. I would rather wait until he gives me all the details and then post everything at once than start lots of gossip now. So please be patient, I will post all the results as quickly as I can. Also those on my facebook page that already heard the basic news earlier, thankyou for not posting anything yet.

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VolklAttivaS5, I, along with several others, had a fair bit of dialogue with Direct-Travel about off piste definitions of Cover in Jan 2010. Here is the thread I joined in.
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=1419350&highlight=#1419350

I still have their Policy, though I top with with an Air-Glaciers Card as I'm not wholly confident of the Cover standard.

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Definitions from Dogtag and others who talk about "Resort Boundaries" are immediately untranslatable in terms of most European resorts, which do not have boundaries.
Similarly talking about resorts "Closing" off piste areas. Other than a few such as parts of the Dolomites which put up signs (which are there all the time) banning all off piste, I can only remember one possible occasion in a European resort which could be interpreted as closing an off piste area (though pistes and itineraries get closed). I have been with guides when a piste was marked as closed and we simply skied near it off-piste which was OK.
Certainly there are often ropes at the top of lifts and other places warning that the area beyond is off-piste but this is only a warning of the fact and crossing the rope is normal and OK. Similarly signs are put up warning (in general) about high avalanche risk.
Also no off piste areas in Europe (as far as I know) are patrolled.
Unfortunately some British insurance companies run by people who don't ski off-piste have taken on this sort of American wording which does not apply in Europe.

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You know it makes sense.

I note above that level 4 is required for using the snow park and half pipe - is this the norm? I wonder how many check their own insurance policy before heading out to play.....given that this is generally a lift served part of the 'on piste', managed environment.....could this lead to a few disputed claims?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Gazzza, a busy day in the A+E department of Moutier hospital suggests to me that there are more injury's to snowboarders than skiers.
It was easy to tell by looking at the boots as the trolleys come out of the ambulance bay and through the waiting area. Sad

A snowHead

Boredsurfing, yes I had a feeling that there were more snowboarder injuries than skiers, partly because when a skier falls, they tend to fall to the side, whereas boarder falls tend to be backwards or forwards. I remember learning to board was far more painful than learning to ski ever was with the full body slams from catching edges Laughing

I broke my wrist actually after I'd been deemed as being able to make turns in control etc from falling backwards one day when just stood still on the board. There must be some kind of stats out there for Snowcard to put beginner boarders in a higher risk category I'd have thought or why else would they do it.

snowcrazy, no probs. Looking forward to hearing the info from your colleague in due course. Your Facebook post was what prompted me to have another look at my policy wording, as my policy isn't due up for renewal until Feb anyway. I would still consider taking out a more suitable policy earlier than that though.

snowbunny, thanks, I hadn't seen that, so you asked them similar questions yourself. I see the bit about the area being 'too dangerous for skiing' is still woolly. It still doesn't tell us, is L4 and above classed as dangerous, or is L3 and below ok, etc etc.
I've never heard of the Air-Glaciers card that you mention, I'll look that up.

snowball, good point about pistes being clearly marked as closed, but like you say, I don't think I've seen an off piste bit as closed before. Who do you do your policy with out of interest? Is it the SCGB one?

The Voice of Reason, good point about the park and pipe, I don't know if it is the norm but it is more risky than ordinary skiing and boarding is for sure IMO.

A snowHead

Just got a quote from the BMC website for Europe (Annual) and the trip limit on that is 93 days per trip which is pretty long. Anyway their premium is £171.87 including the membership fee of £29.95. I can't see any policy wording on the website anywhere though to see what they say about off piste skiing. They do cover off piste but I can't see anything about the 'skiing against local advice' thing.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

The BMC now charges an additional premium if you want snowboarding covered. They introduced this as they had some some high cost payout for boarders in the US. They were debating whether to stop covering boarding altogether as its not really under the 'mountaineering' umbrella for the most part. They certainly are certainly seen as a liability for the BMC.

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scottishskier, yes I noticed that. Suits me as I don't board anyway.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

It's surprising how many policies now exclude "jumping" and "stunting" (their words not mine), and anything in the park.
I would bet alot of people don't realise they are not covered.

Most policys I came across also only cover in-bound skiing/riding and off-piste was limted to with a guide.

In the end I found policy that covered off piste, but did not unfortunately cover search and rescue costs (arguably a fat lot of use in some respects). So I now buy carre neige with the lift pass to cover me for search and resuce/getting me off the mountain element.
This obvisouly would'nt help if you want to go back country in the US, but for me anywhere in-bounds in the US was sufficient.

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What do people want their cover to cover? rescue, some med expenses, repatriation and public liability can be covered annually by the Austrian Alpine Club for not very much.

http://www.aacuk.org.uk/Files/AWS_2010_English.PDF

Doesn't your EHIC card cover most med expenses in the EU?

So what does that leave? Cancellation, loss of baggage, ski theft that sort of thing are completely independent of where you may be skiing (unless someone steals your skis while you are off piste... I think I am happy to bear that risk myself).

So isn't the answer to get AAC cover for ski specific concerns and rely on whatever standard travel insurance you get with your credit card etc?

Genuine question - I glaze over a bit where insurance policies are concerned

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

VolklAttivaS5, although I picked julesb up from the airport on his return to the UK, Direct Travel did offer to arrange transport home for him.

After all it is free

achilles, keep up! Wink

the AAC cover does repatriation

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Arno, I am fully aware of that. Your post however had the specific, isolated question "Doesn't your EHIC card cover most med expenses in the EU?". Lack of repatriation is a bit of a stiffer in my view. Whether one should take out AAC cover is a separate matter, which I didn't want to get bogged down with. But since you persist, I would not touch it, since I don't want my main travel insurer not subject to UK law and arbitration processes.

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Off Piste Insurance cover "without a guide" ?

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