 Poster: A snowHead
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| Collisions resulting in serious injury happen from time to time, but they are rare. However, I think they're normally caused by attitude, rather than a lack of ability. Most of the people who crash into others could easily ski well enough / rein in their attitude long enough to pass a very low level test to get this theoretical licence. As soon as they had it their attitude would be back. |
Absolutely. It is the skiers/boarders who have 'ability' but who are idiots with bad attitude that seem to me to be the problem.
This ski licence as reported by DAB would also have elements on equipment set up and a first aid test - I don't really see how this would help safety on the slopes.
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| A much better way to make the pistes safer would be to be more pro-active in stopping skiers who are evidently out of control, giving them a warning, and if they re-offend confiscating their lift pass. Maybe even banning them from the resort. |
And again - spot on.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Are we all missing the point.
The mechanism for introducing such a system is quite easy.
A beginner as two choices :-
1. Learn to make Snowplough turns at a UK centre or
2. Book into ski school in resort
Once progression card is signed off by ski instructor and head of ski school as a confirmation of attaining a suitable standard then this is sent to your governing body either BASI or Snowsports UK who issue you with a credit card size certificate with your photo on and certificate number.
If you are already a skier all you have to do is book an assessment session with your local ski centre who then give you the same documentation enabling you to apply for your certificate.
You then present this certificate to the local lift pass office who register your lift pass too your certificate along with your photo.
Most modern lift stations bring up your photo on screen as you pass through the gate anyway.
The first aid is a little irrelevant but an understanding of the Skier Code would be.
This is away of making money so would it be given serious consideration. Then yes it will but will it ever get implemented ? Well only the cost of introducing such a system would determine otherwise.
Importantly does it stop out of control skiing ? The answers no but at least a piste patroller as more info to go on i.e.:- checking lift pass against certificate.
Does it put people off skiing ? Not really - DOES HAVING TO GO THROUGH A SERIOUS OF EXPENSIVE DRIVING LESSONS AND TEST STOP PEOPLE LEARNING TO DRIVE - NO
I can see MR Brown now choking on his morning coffee realising how he had missed such an opportunity to implement another form of taxation.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
I think they're normally caused by attitude, rather than a lack of ability. Most of the people who crash into others could easily ski well enough / rein in their attitude long enough to pass a very low level test to get this theoretical licence. As soon as they had it their attitude would be back.
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Much the same as 'boy racer' drivers.... Manage to pass their test and as soon as they have that bit of paper, drive like lunatics (Sorry for the general sweeping statement, but I think you guys get the gist?!).
I've injured myself 3 times while skiing - each time was a dislocated shoulder. Each time was no-ones fault but my own - all were low speed tumbles due to catching an edge (or similar). Althoguh once at a snowdome my (now ex) girlfriend deliberately skied into me and knocked me over causing bruising. But she was a PROPER nutter. Oh, I've also broken someones collar bone playing football through an over zealous tackle. Should I be licenced for that? I've also taken sticks and balls to the face (fnarr fnarr) on countless occassions while playing hockey - I didnt manage to get the other players licence details though..... My point being that in everything we do there is an elemant of risk, and although in theory its a good idea, especially to potentially track down people who just 'do one' without stopping. However, I think the policing of it would be near impossible. Me personally, IF I ever hit someone, I would always stop to check on them / call for assistance / leave details etc, but I think thats more my morals and upbringing!
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queen bodecia, I've been driving for 30 years and it was only a month ago that I actually say a motor vehicle accident happen in front of me. Do motor accidents occur - of course they do all the time. Just becuase you may not have actually seen one doesn't mean they don't happen.
RobinS, The ski industry already recognises instructor certificates internationally so and the subject of set standards is possible but yes some countries licences are more valued than others. It would also restrict where the beginner can go to practice between lessons. ie like some of resorts now have designated beginner areas.
I'm sure we're only talking of identifying people have at least a basic level of ability before going on the mountain
Your licence could also affect your insurance premiums. Why should I pay for a higher premium becuase of a lunatic skier. My insurance should be linked to my skiing history and standard along with the type of skiing I do just like my driving insurance.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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mustdash, I agree with you but then your insurance premiums would also go up to reflect your accident history not mine.
However is it your skiing ability which causes you to have as many accidents. So maybe some additional lessons may help.
In this world if anything can generate an income then I'm sure someone will consider it.
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Super Eagle, Personally I dont think 3 accidents in 12 years is that a bad record (Im not counting the psycho ex shunt!). Obviously others may disagree, but I digress. Theres always room for improvement in these things though!
Thats what a lot of this boils down to IMHO - peoples moral compass.... If people who had an accident stopped and left details / waited for piste patrol etc, knowing full well that they could lose their lift pass / liberty then there would be no need for this kind of discussion, as they would all make sure they ski in a way that matches their ability (well, maybe?!). Because people are all too willing to leave the scene, knowing that the chances of getting caught are slim, other things (i.e. this idea) are being thought about to try and reduce accidents etc.
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I think we've had more than enough recent examples of expensive, bureaucratic systems being instigated to little or no practical effect.
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How about a quick test you can do that gets you, say, 5% off a lift pass for life at collaborating resorts (all the biggies) if you have the card?
Basic saftey; what to do in an accident; skiers code; a bit of go, stop, sideslip technique. You could do the test in 30 mins easily on a blue resort run and if it cost about 25-30E it would soon pay for itself for a keen skiier. If you get caught by a resort being an idiot, as well as a bollocking, you lose the card and have to redo the test, so you get a fine and get hassle.
I imagine that it would help keep both individual and resorts' liability insurance premiums down. Call it the E-JONG card or something catchy like that and roll it out across Europe.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Cunners, cunning.
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| Quote: |
If people who had an accident stopped and left details / waited for piste patrol etc, knowing full well that they could lose their lift pass / liberty t
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If it was really that, an accident, I don't think there's any risk of having your lift pass confiscated - not in Europe anyway.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Baby, I've got my licence to Thrill, does that count?
*with apologies to Glen Plake, et al.
Dumb idea, dumb thread, why am I even bothering?
Frankly a universally required breeding licence would solve most of these problems
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
a universally required breeding licence would solve most of these problems
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Amen to that!
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laundryman, Of course but when governments are looking to raise income to payback debt then anything is possible.
40 years ago having to use a seat belt was considered a removal of ones liberty
20 years ago drink driving was frowned upon but due to lack of awareness it's become a problem again.
10 years ago no smoking in public places would have been considered outragous. I believe even France is now abiding by the law.
The point is anything is possible and its not that hard to actually introduce. It would only be the bureaurcrats that make it difficult and expensive.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Super Eagle, it will not make money for governments. I doubt it would make money for anyone, even ski schools, in the long run.
What aspects of life would you not bureaucratise?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| DAB wrote: |
| There has also been the idea, although this time in Germany, of introducing´genuss´pistes(basically family pistes) where a speed limit is imposed, and anyone caught speeding would be fined.This again, while sounding good in theory, I think would be hard to impose, I mean, how can you tell how fast you are going? I have no idea. |
It is a bit like on the German Autobahns, if you are going twice as fast as the rest of the traffic you are going too fast.
I agree with speed controlled beginner pistes with much better enforcement of limits. When I was in Val Thorens a couple of years back people were speeding down the home runs and amusing themselves whizzing through the magic carpet beginners zone.
Yobs on planks.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This is a poorly thought through concept - sounds like an Austrian politician is just grabbing some column inches.
It's cost millions to implement, millions to run and won't make one jot of difference. An epic fail 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It's not yet been thought through. This is a skiing forum, not any kind of policy making body! Somewhere to share thoughts, experiences and ideas
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| sounds like an Austrian politician is just grabbing some column inches |
Most men (I'm certainly one of them) would admit to this sort of activity from time to time.
People say it makes you go blind but - as you've implied - it can also enhance your media exposure.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 30-12-09 14:06; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thanks everyone. Of course I was aware piste collisions do happen. I've seen news reports and read posts on here. I'm just not sure it's such a huge problem that people make them out to be. How many of them actually result in injury? I assume they are much rarer during non-school holliday weeks.
The point about driving licenses is a valid one. Despite an expensive and rigorous procedure to obtain a driving license (in the UK at least), driving standards can be very poor and lunatic behaviour is commonplace.
Just because someone can do a snowplough stop and holds a certificate to prove that, does not mean that they will not let the red mist descend and be a lunatic on piste if they want to. Often it's 'showboating' in front of their friends. Much the same as it is on the roads.
The only answer as I can see it, is more piste patrols and better instruction of piste etiquette. It won't work for everyone but it might deter some.
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| Quote: |
The point about driving licenses is a valid one. Despite an expensive and rigorous procedure to obtain a driving license (in the UK at least), driving standards can be very poor and lunatic behaviour is commonplace.
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Anybody driving carelessly or dangerously after having passed a driving test runs the risk of having their license removed - because we have rules (laws) which are designed to protect the sensible majority from the mindless minority, and we have people (traffic cops) employed to monitor driver behaviour.....still a valid point?
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 30-12-09 14:29; edited 1 time in total
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youspurs1, yes, but the truly reckless don't care about things like that. For example the woman who crashed into my mum's car and rendered her permanently disabled. She had no license, no insurance and was already serving a ban. The further ban made no difference to her at all, she just bought another car and carried on driving.
What's to say a reckless skier/boarder won't feel the same about a 'license'?
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If there was a theory test it best not be a complete waste of time like the driving theory test in the UK.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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arv, absolutely. An essay on inner tip lead at the least! 
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Some idiots will never obey rules/laws/ whatever. Does that mean that we should just scrap the laws? Or should we just trust that the people that we pay to uphold said laws will eventually bring the idiots to book?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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No, but I think the vast majority of piste users do so sensibly and in control. To introduce licensing for the reckless minimum who probably won't take much notice of it anyway seems like a pointless waste of bureaucracy to me and may even deter the sort of sensible piste users we want to encourage.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Some old bat bumped into my legs with her tartan trolley on wheels thing in the street once. What we need is some sort of "pedestrian license" which requires a rigorous examination, and is forcefully policed, to stop this kind of thing happening again. Anyone without one would be forced to stay at home. It really bloody hurt!
Do you see?
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Great. The king of comedy has graced the thread with his presense. My cue to leave.
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You know it makes sense.
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Oh come on!
laundryman isn't that funny.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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youspurs1, The OP suggests that this is a plan being considered in Austria and at a country-wide scale, and poses the question 'will it work'. The answer to that is simple - No
David Sockpuppet, quite true, although i'd have thought that the grabbing of inches would've come from the Italian side of the mountains rather than Austrian side, what with Mr Berlusconi in charge...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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queen bodecia, I drive a pushchair with extreme dexterity and panache, I'll have you know.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
youspurs1, yes, but the truly reckless don't care about things like that. For example the woman who crashed into my mum's car and rendered her permanently disabled. She had no license, no insurance and was already serving a ban. The further ban made no difference to her at all, she just bought another car and carried on driving.
What's to say a reckless skier/boarder won't feel the same about a 'license'? |
The slight difference between skiing and driving in this analogy is that you would need the license to be allowed to buy the car (lift pass) - of course you could always walk up the slope, but only the dedicated (also known as free-heelers  ) are likely to keep that up for long.
Having said that, better piste patrol would get my vote.
My wife's first day skiing after a shoulder dislocation was marred by a border on a slope beyond his ability taking her out. No injury to her luckily. He got the rough edge of my tongue however, and then the same from his skier parents when he caught up with them.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| RobinS wrote: |
| First problem ... does everyone here want to waste part of their very expensive holiday, and money, on mandatory beginner level tests before they can go skiing. Second problem ... certificates from snowdome, dry slope skiers - what about the bureaucracy ... Third problem ... skiers ski unaccompanied for half the day even when having lessons the other half - is this to be banned until you have passed a test? ... Fourth problem ... injury ... has been due to a solo fall, catching an edge etc, while ... skiing well within their abilities. Skiing carries a fair risk of injury due to this type of fall, but very small risk of death due to other people. |
Does anyone actually have the stats to highlight the actual problem and the solution we should be discussing? ie: UKGOV wants to curtail motorbikes yet the worst age groups for road deaths are the young and elderly. And, while three-quarters of all deaths are male I sincerely hope they wont be banning male drivers!
Knowing at least the skiing level of those having/causing accidents is essential as is knowing the piste grade of crash sites. After all, might it be that future licence holders skiing on the most difficult runs are actually the greatest of injuries sustained from getting the most out of the sport? Doh! Is it the reckless, vain or stupid thats causing all this trouble. Lets face it, skill & ability won't be raised with a legal document in the pocket acquired from the artificial slopes, and the bottom line ... its doubtful anything that curtails visitor numbers will be supported by ski-associated businesses! Anyone mention snowboarders anywhere? Grrr...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'd vote for giving the pisteurs more powers to confiscate lift passes.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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just make sking three times more expensive.. keep the masses off the mountians..
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| beanie1 wrote: |
A much better way to make the pistes safer would be to be more pro-active in stopping skiers who are evidently out of control, giving them a warning, and if they re-offend confiscating their lift pass. Maybe even banning them from the resort. |
As I said earlier, a few more piste police should do the trick by banning the nuters from the slope for the next 24 hours by invalidating their lift pass. Not to beauracratic or expensive to implement?
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oldsnowy, providing thay have proof and dont mind someone going 'legal on them' .. also what if soemone just makes a balls up , like we all have .. do they get carted off
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| youspurs1 wrote: |
| beanie1 I meant that scuba diving is highly controlled. There are courses that you are required to take before you are allowed to do certain things...basic diving, open water, advanced open water, rescue diver etc etc. So it becomes a good comparison if similar controls were to be introduced for skiing. |
Actually, of course, there is no compulsory control AT ALL (except a few sites where it is illegal to dive without appropriate permission).
Anybody can go out and buy air tanks, demand valves & the other necessary equipment, and then the go diving, alone or with friends, and there is NOTHING to stop them.
It is controlled only because almost everybody is introduced to the sport via clubs who do require all their active members to undergo the proper training, and because mostr people know how bloody dangerous it is without that training.
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| youspurs1 wrote: |
| Some idiots will never obey rules/laws/ whatever. Does that mean that we should just scrap the laws? Or should we just trust that the people that we pay to uphold said laws will eventually bring the idiots to book? |
It means that where the "problem" (if there really is one) is people who are usually competent to a basic level or more, but who disobey the already present guidelines, there is really no point in requiring a test of basic competence before allowing people on the piste.
It won't make any difference to the behaviour of such people.
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FAQ
