 Poster: A snowHead
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DB, yes, weight a bit back, but not bad (and a nice pic). Perhaps we'll meet on the slopes one day.
This is me more in my comfort zone (Dolomites last year - is this one of your pics Horizon, or one of Zeb's?):
Ooh, wish I were there now.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 30-11-09 18:01; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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snowball,
Yes I need to get out with you Horizon, JT et al one day.
Nice pic too - looks like Langden Forrest @ St Anton.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I suspect cross-blocking is about the only thing unique to race technique. Race training teaches good all around skiing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Gordyjh, and cross-blocking is...?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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snowball,
FastMan, (of course) has it right. I think there is a big difference in the way you can ski on hard snow, on a closed piste compared to unknown soft snow offpiste.
Offpiste you pretty much have to compromise how you ski, because you don't know what will be under your skis,and if you should have an accident, then rescue becomes much more of an issue than when on piste. On a closed, hard snow course.. you have none of those restrictions.
On hard snow you have to be able to use the edges of your skis....If you look at kitenski, 's pictures, you'll see that the skis have carved a very small track in the snow... but at the same time supported the skier travelling at some speed. Compare the area of the side of this track with the surface area of your ski - which you'll benefit from in powder... IMV that's why hard snow is a less forgiving surface thank soft snow.
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| snowball wrote: |
| Gordyjh, and cross-blocking is...? |
Bashing slalom poles out of the way with your hands. Not good technique for skiing in trees!
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rob@rar, helps with saplings/thin branches across tracks tho 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Sideshow_Bob, good point. So, there you go, even cross-blocking has a role in all-mountain skiing 
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| snowball wrote: |
VERY interesting, FastMan. It will take me quite a while to absorb it.
Is all this something which you believe will benefit all my skiing or is some of it more relevant to racing?
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snowball, everything I presented in that post is valuable as general skiing technique.
Arc to Arc is a very effective way to turn a ski. It employs the design capabilities built into these marvelous shape skis to do the bulk of the work of turning for us. Pivoting or pushing the tails into a smeared/skidded turn entry requires muscular involvement that can be avoided in the ultra clean and smooth Arc to Arc turn.
Twisting the skis into a smear/skid at the beginning of the turn is perfectly fine to do when it's needed, but for those times when it's not needed it's nice to have the ability to start the turn cleanly. Most skiers can't do that, they have a twist of the skis build into every one of their turn initiations. That's the "default" Little Tiger referred to. In less skilled skiers than you it generally comes in the form of an aggressive upper body rotation. Your anticipation version is a more advanced way to do it. It's the way I show students to do it when a pivoted or pushed redirection of the skis at the start of the turn is needed. But that only comes well after I've shown them how to get rid of their default pivoted initiation, and replaced it with a clean turn entry.
Dropping the outside hip back to create counter is a very common issue for good skiers. It can causes many problems. Aft hips and balanced on the heels, overly flexed outside leg, skis scissoring, and falling inisde. Driving the inside hip forward is a quick fix solution.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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FastMan, If "dropping the outside hip back" is the problem I don't see how "driving the inside hip forward" can be the solution - did you mean the outside hip?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| snowball wrote: |
| FastMan, If "dropping the outside hip back" is the problem I don't see how "driving the inside hip forward" can be the solution - did you mean the outside hip? |
No he does mean driving the inside hip forwards - the idea here is that the pelvis angle is the same, but further forward, so the pressure from the ski drives you forward, rather than to leave you dragging behind. It also gets you standing a bit taller, so in a stronger skeletal position. As I intimated before, though, this is all bound up with the degree of counter desired. Other coaches have been much keener on getting angles through more inclination and less angulation (and hence requiring higher speeds). Hence they've been looking for a square pelvis (as indicated in this link http://youcanski.com/en/coaching/modern_technique.htm#Section5 provided by sideshow_bob in the crossover/under thread), keeping more level ski tips, less counter, and achieving this by driving the outside hip around the turn and on occasion, as a drill, even trying to ski telemark style.
And no, these finer points don't really have much to do with jump turns in a tight couloir (although the pivot/carve style of turn isn't far off), but there is some relevance to GSing bottomless powder (just don't try doing it with >80:20 weight distribution ).
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You know it makes sense.
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Hmmm, I think this needs to be talked about on the snow, and it is hard to talk outside of specific contexts.
In general I am quite sure racers know what works for racing but I'm less convinced in general, though I am sure there are things in common. If racing technique helped so much off piste how come the British junior racing team in my anecdote couldn't cope with simple off-piste.
I accept that there is a lot wrong with my stance in the first photo I put in here. I was trying to co-ordinate just a single tight turn with the flash of a camera to get my skis right on edge for the photo at the very low speeds you can achieve on an indoor slope (excuses excuses). I think we will have to wait till you have seen me ski naturally on proper slopes and discuss it then. I am prepared to try things (a bit, anyway).
I said I hadn't had any instruction since I was young, but I did do a Ski Club off-piste holiday once, half the time with Mark Jones, but found I didn't get any suggestions from him and I'm sure that wasn't because I have no need of it. Really the only comment was in response to a direct question of how could I make my skiing look more elegant, and was- well it would look better if my feet were closer together.
By the way, has anyone else got photos from that MK camera?
I know I was really bad the one time I tried gates on the Fleche long ago without any training (for the Ski Club gold), and I know I'd have to have coaching and work at it to get the Fleche gold, which is a lot harder. However, since for me skiing is all about getting away into the wilds and natural snow, and I hate competition, I rather doubt I'd have enough motivation to do it unless I could get extra time on the snow for it. I'm good at skiing tight trees quite fast, which superficially might seem similar, but the requirements seem to me very different, as speed isn't the aim. In fact, as I pointed out at the top of this thread, shedding speed is the usual aim in normal skiing. However control is also an aim.
Of ordinary piste conditions I know my bump skiing is weakest since I hardly ever ski them - but again the legs tight together and very knee-bent swivelling-on-the-top-of-the-bump style seems quite different from the racing technique (and more related to what I was trying down the edge at Hemel last time - I'm not sure how successfully).
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 1-12-09 13:46; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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snowball, in contrast to your Britsih Junior racing team just look how many free ride skiers come from race backgrounds... and somewhere on youtube there is footage of Svindal heliskiing and I'd be happy to suck that badly off-piste!!!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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little tiger, I have no doubt at all that champion racers are all amazing skiers at anything However that doesn't prove that the technical requirements are always the same.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 1-12-09 13:50; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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snowball,
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If racing technique helped off piste how come the British junior racing team in my anecdote
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Most racers I know (even the ones I coach) make excellent off-piste skiers.. Good technique is good technique. Watch any Club des Sport on a powder day !
Ski racing is not simply going as fast as you can.. you need to be able control your line to stay in the course, which requires strength, balance, ability etc, the same as off-piste.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Back to the title of the thread, there's not much of race technique that's exclusive to racing, but it is heavily dominated by hard snooth snow skiing (i.e. prepared pistes). What you're now talking about really is the difference between piste and off-piste skiing. When making comparison between these different environments, the basic technical skills are largely similar but, as you point out, the tactical and psychological approaches for skiing it is are quite different - and I think that's your real dichotomy. (BASIoids - marks for getting the jargon in there - 4/6?)
And, while we can't see much of the fore/aft balance, the turn in that photo with horizon looks much, much better than that at MK - so maybe that first one was just a bit of an off one.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| snowball wrote: |
If racing technique helped so much off piste how come the British junior racing team in my anecdote couldn't cope with simple off-piste.
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I would hazard a guess that some of it was due to the fact it was new to them, and also then suppose they would pick it up fairly quickly given some decent practise...
Do you have any video of you skiing piste you could post up? That may help folk do some more analysis???
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I know I couldn't have had a hope of keeping up with those junior racers on a race course, yet I was way ahead of them off piste. So why the difference?
Yes, I don't doubt that there are some constants in technique, but that doesn't mean the techniques for different circumstances are the same - even in my own skiing (which perhaps over-uses one turn-type) I'm aware of somewhat different techniques being necessary for different types of turn. That was really all I was saying. In order to disentangle this I think I need to talk on the snow where I can try things - rather than here where I am just having to imagine it.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 1-12-09 14:06; edited 1 time in total
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| snowball wrote: |
Hmmm, I think this needs to be talked about on the snow, and it is hard to talk outside of specific contexts.
In general I am quite sure racers know what works for racing but I'm less convinced in general, though I am sure there are things in common. If racing technique helped so much off piste how come the British junior racing team in my anecdote couldn't cope with simple off-piste. |
Probably different weight distribution (less equal with racing) and softer feel of offpiste.
| Quote: |
| I said I hadn't had any instruction since I was young, but I did do a Ski Club off-piste holiday once, half the time with Mark Jones, but found I didn't get any suggestions from him and I'm sure that wasn't because I have no need of it. Really the only comment was in response to a direct question of how could I make my skiing look more elegant, and was- well it would look better if my feet were closer together. |
Always thought the stance width depended a lot on the terrain e.g. May mashed potato with avalanche lumps .....
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ski, yep 3/4 of my long term instructors were racers... they all ripped off-piste as well... AIUI a good race program spends a lot more time out of gates than in -the Canadian had a nice story about the race group as kids jumping a windlip in a couloir at Blackcomb as race training (for the prejumping)... also stories of skiing home in the dark with sparks flying from all the kids skis as they hit stones... He never ever looked out of place on his skis... Also AIUI he beat the CSIA level 4 pacesetters by over a second in the race - despite not having raced for years or really trained much for it... He never looked that fast when you would watch him - not a flashy skier... but damned effective....
and the italian racer I skied with was like a cat - and his other passion (after going stupid fast on ice injected pistes) was telemarking... he used to climb the local mountains pre dawn to telemark down - I think you would call him pretty decent on skis anywhere he went...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| snowball wrote: |
| I remember long ago when I was young being told by a ski teacher that a particular technique was used by racers but it wasn't good style for ordinary skiing. |
Going back to the original post, skidding the skis sideways isn't considered good style but it can be faster as detailed in this link.
http://www.ronlemaster.com/articles/skidding-SR6_TechTalk.pdf
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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snowball, I'm not at all upset by your comment but I wouldn't be surprised if, as junior Brit racers, many of them had never skied off piste. If you learn to ski on plastic and have the occasional training week on snow (for those lucky enough to have indulgent parents) the opportunity to ski on anything other than a hard surface may never arise. Just a factor for consideration, not knowing who they were.
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You know it makes sense.
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snowball, it was by a distance the hardest GS course of the year and they only needed the skid to control speed on one or two gates. You won't find many courses or gates needing that technique, and if they could have carved a pure arc round the gate without having to scrub any speed I'm sure they would have done.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Yoda, indeed, this is exactly the background I had. Couldn't afford (financially or educationally) months away in the alps each winter and so was restricted to pretty much to two or three weeks max of snow time a year, time which included six or seven days of actual races. When we weren't actually racing we were training gates or doing drills. Our coach tried to do a couple of afternoons of off-piste and bumps work each week though as he recognized the benefits, and the off-piste in Alpe D'Huez say is slightly better than the off-piste at Pendle or Rossendale 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Sideshow_Bob, what Ligety is doing is rare, but I'd say I see what Raich is doing, to a greater or lesser degree, on about 50% of gates on most WC GS courses.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Some comments from me:
- whenever I've skied off-piste with skiers who had previous race training, instructors or not, they have been excellent. Faster than me, taking lines that I didn't quite trust myself to take, quicker to turn in tough conditions, better balanced. That said, I know of at least one or two guys with previous race training who don't do offpiste 'cause they don't like it / aren't good at it. And I've seen some (not all) guides who ski superbly but as far as I know have not been racers (Zeb Roche for instance)
- at the top level, I've been told by a former rockstar skier that some top ex-racers become great freeskiers and some don't (we're talking good enough for movies here, of course all top ex-racers would rip compared to mere mortals).
However, I think snowball is more interested in how race training could help him in offpiste skiing, rather than in an overall argument about race training vs offpiste skills.
So the question is: given his profile, would you say that 20-30 hours spread out over 2 weeks would help him more if doing race training, or if doing an offpiste-specific training?
(I want to know too, I'm about his level offpiste. Though of course I may be overrating myself).
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 1-12-09 15:27; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Sideshow_Bob, I did try out the off-piste at Gloucester a couple of years ago - can't say it was up to much either.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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horizon, both . Or if time abroad is an issue, get the race training in at Hemel (or for you, Landgraaf's pretty close).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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GrahamN, that's more a function of tighter, harder packed WC GS courses combined with increased ski radius that necessitates stivots/speed-controlling, but I don't think that many courses require the use to such an extent (apart from the World Champs on the Face, which was just mental).
Talking of Hemel, is Phil's training still going on on Monday evenings? Unfortunately the Hemel Club training on Sunday mornings clashes with rowing.
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Yoda I don't know who our junior team are now, let alone 12 or more years ago - and anyway it was the photographer's anecdote! However I assumed anyone representing Britain would have had more ski experience than that, even if they were juniors.
I suppose I was also myself slightly annoyed at comments that hard snow was more challenging than off piste - since part of the reason I turned to off piste is that it brought back the challenges I had ceased to find on piste (except occasionally on ice, but that is one challenge I don't really enjoy - and anyway I'd need different skis for it).
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| snowball wrote: |
I suppose I was also myself slightly annoyed at comments that hard snow was more challenging than off piste - since part of the reason I turned to off piste is that it brought back the challenges I had ceased to find on piste |
| horizon wrote: |
I think snowball is more interested in how race training could help him in offpiste skiing, rather than in an overall argument about race training vs offpiste skills. |
OK I take that back
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| snowball wrote: |
| Yoda I don't know who our junior team are now, let alone 12 or more years ago - and anyway it was the photographer's anecdote! However I assumed anyone representing Britain would have had more ski experience than that, even if they were juniors. |
I saw the same at Sölden a few years ago only it was a junior group of Austrian racers. The different feel of soft snow seemed to put them off, I'm sure that once they had more time in the soft snow they realized how to use their skills more effectively offpiste. Bad technique in the soft snow tends to bring you down to earth (snow) quicker so somebody with a lot of offpiste experience will have developed a solid technique (or likes falling over in snow a lot). On the flip side there are many piste skiers who have skied for years with really bad technique.
| snowball wrote: |
| I suppose I was also myself slightly annoyed at comments that hard snow was more challenging than off piste - since part of the reason I turned to off piste is that it brought back the challenges I had ceased to find on piste (except occasionally on ice, but that is one challenge I don't really enjoy - and anyway I'd need different skis for it). |
IMHO recreational hardpiste skiing is easier than recreational offpiste skiing but winning high level ski races is another level.
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FAQ
I generally have reasonable fore-aft balance but there have been a some occasions when I'm under pressure where my weight has gone back. Skiing on ordinary groomed pistes doesn't normally put me under any pressure (it is many years since I can remember falling on piste) - but skiing gates would most certainly put me under pressure. Might be a good experience.
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