frank4short, now do you think that people who only ski 2 weeks a year can develop those skills?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Avalanche & Snow Pack research has come along away but it is still not an exact sceince.
One of the reasons why is because there's constantly (possibly by the minute,second, hour) subtle changes in snow crystals (New & Settled) thus effecting the stability of any particular area your on.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
stoatsbrother, Yes. In fact i'd say it's theoretically easier to read a glacier than it is to read a snow pack. There's a lot less science & a lot more common sense behind the theory & application of glacial travel. As to learning the ropes (& I mean that in a literal sense) you can do that & practice it at home with the correct reading material & equipment.
frank4short, I have some experience of rock climbing - so could learn the ropes, I think. I am not so convinced that practising it at home is sufficient. Nor would I wish to lug the rope and other kit needed on the off chance of having a non-guide glacier day; I am close enough to airline weight limits as it is.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
stoatsbrother wrote:
...now do you think that people who only ski 2 weeks a year can develop those skills?
They could certainly do a lot...
Educating yourself with a good book is a great starting point.
And means that you will learn much more from your limited time on snow.
Another good thing would be to get out hillwalking (or mountain biking) in Scotland, Wales or the Lake District over summer. Practise your navigation skills, map reading, compass work and route finding.
Similarly rope skills / transceiver practise and first aid can all be done at home. These are all important and useful things to learn for people going off piste.
Like learning any new skill it just requires a little dedication, effort & time
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 15-09-09 15:45; edited 2 times in total
achilles, we practised in the stairwell of our appartment block last winter, it's as good as anywhere. The gear is very light: 30 m of 8 mm probably weighs less than a kilo although we wouldn't ski with it unless going somewhere it would be needed i.e. glaciers or where there might be an ab. From a climbing background you can teach yourself it from 1st principles fairly easily. Also there's been a few courses mentioned and organised on here for other people to learn, it could always be useful: what happens if your guide falls in? Not that far fetched a scenario as the guy running the course snowball organised last winter, albeit he wasn't a full guide, had fallen in one on a completely flat section of glacier.
As a generality I believe skiers don't expect to be as self-sufficient as climbers/mountaineers might.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
stoatsbrother wrote:
So you are happy to go skiing off-piste on glaciated terrain you have not visited before without someone who knows it?
For sure. Then again I can rig around three crevasse extraction systems with my eyes closed... practice practice practic.
After all it is free
After all it is free
parlor, You're amazing
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
sorry, thought i'd drop that in as i cant see why else you'd write that other than to point out how great you are????
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Haggis_Trap, I'd agree with what you say - and we have practised hide the transceiver anywhere in the house... seems always to be the sock drawer though and I am comfortable with navigation skills. I'm not really asking about me, I spend a bit more time than that on the snow - and try and learn and practice the skills. I just have a sense of my own limitations.
I really wanted to see if frank4short felt 2-weeks-a-year skiers should be navigating glaciated off-piste terrain without guides or experienced locals. The answer appears to be yes... I am interested in where he draws the line - or sees the limitations of the average off-piste skiing punter.
I suspect people who can climb well (I tried it and I was lousy) have a great advantage in rope technique and also in developing the self-sufficient mindset Swirly mentions.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Tue 15-09-09 16:30; edited 1 time in total
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
parlor, now do you want to answer the follow-on question about the 2 weeks a year punter under those circumstances...?
I know you guys are safe. I am just not sure what frank4short has got against people who choose to ski in patrolled off-piste territory.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Swirly wrote:
As a generality I believe skiers don't expect to be as self-sufficient as climbers/mountaineers might.
The two are totally different activities. The only thing they share are the same mountain ranges.
The joy of climbing and mountaineering is exactly the self sufficiency. Skiing is more of a holiday that has a bit of physical activity with lots of fresh air.
I think of the two relationship a bit like riding a motor bike vs a bicycle. They share the same road and even some of the similar skill. But the mind set is quite different.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
abc, disagree - resort skiing and alpine mountaineering are quite distinct activities but when you come to ski glaciated terrain or more technical backcountry routes or get into ski touring or ski mountaineering there is considerable overlap
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Swirly, interesting. Good point about rescuing the guide. Not sure I would want to practice putting in an anchor on the stairs, though. Oh, and BTW, an ice axe is not something I normally take skiing, either.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
abc, where's the line between ski-touring and going for a walk in the mountains? Or to take it one step in either direction; I board so if I go touring I am walking up a mountain which is basically mountaineering. Alternatively I use the lifts to access the terrain. going with what I'm familiar with, an example could be the Vallon de la Selle above St Christophe in the Ecrins: you could tour up the valley or get the lifts from Les Deux Alpes or La Grave.
stoatsbrother,
Quote:
people who can climb well
You have a greatly exaggerated belief in my climbing ability.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
achilles wrote:
frank4short, I have some experience of rock climbing - so could learn the ropes, I think. I am not so convinced that practising it at home is sufficient. Nor would I wish to lug the rope and other kit needed on the off chance of having a non-guide glacier day; I am close enough to airline weight limits as it is.
I can recommend the Ski Surgery Weekend at Glenmore Lodge.
Skiing roped up on their dry slope was interesting and crevasse rescue in the car park was fun.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 15-09-09 16:57; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
frank4short wrote:
The difference being the level of acceptable risk to your knowledge base.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, as they say.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Arno wrote:
abc, disagree - resort skiing and alpine mountaineering are quite distinct activities but when you come to ski glaciated terrain or more technical backcountry routes or get into ski touring or ski mountaineering there is considerable overlap
Swirly wrote:
abc, where's the line between ski-touring and going for a walk in the mountains?
I consider ski touring as part of mountaineering. Not "just skiing" or "going for a walk" in the mountains.
Some hill walkers and skiers will become mountaineers. But the majority of hill walkers and skiers are not mountaineers and have no intention to become so EVER. Hence the different mind set.
(another analogy which may or may not fit: my initial interaction with computer was to write my thesis and e-mail for communication. But I eventually ended up writting device drivers for network cards. Both activity involves spending hours in front of a computer. Yet I don't consider computer programming and "extension" of word processing. I don't expect everyone on this board to be able to write java programs. Those are two very different activities. Skier who don't do mountaineering are not being lazy. They just have a different focus.)
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 15-09-09 17:48; edited 2 times in total
Incidentally, the only time I have been avalanched was while heliskiing with a bunch of fellow 'mountain professionals'....
one of whom was an IFMGA Mountain Guide...
Snowing up high out here again...here comes winter!!!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
dulcamara wrote:
sorry, thought i'd drop that in as i cant see why else you'd write that other than to point out how great you are????
Erm? You don't read so well do you? I was answering the question but then pointing out ("then again") I that I have the necessary skill set to comfortably ski on glaciated terrain that I have never skied on before.
The whole point is that I'm familiar enough with ropes that I can easily set up a crevasse extraction, if I needed to. You don't learn these skills from falling down crevasses or even from skiing on glaciers, you learn them from people or books, and PRACTICE.
So if you can use ropes (ie be able to rope up to travel on a glacier and perform a rescue if the case arises) and you have basic navigation skills why not ski on a glacier (aside any avalanche risk).
The next question:
Two weeks per years punters?
I don't know how long it takes to learn these skills, everyone is different. The most common problem is actually not even being aware of the dangers that are presented when skiing avalanche or glaciated terrain.
Everyone agrees that avoiding having to use any sort of rescue skill is preferred, but if you have the skills and the AWARENESS that the dangers are there what's the problem? And there-in lies the problem.
If you don't know, don't go. Kept me alive so far...
After all it is free
After all it is free
the question about glaciers is a bit trite. i have ventured onto glaciers which i have never seen before plenty of times - that doesn't mean i would dash headlong onto any glacier with any group of people in any conditions.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
offpisteskiing wrote:
abc, so where do you draw the line between being a hill-walking and mountaineering? Is there a clearly defined boundary between the two?
Not "clearly" but nonetheless "defined".
When the mindset changed, one crosses into the other.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
i suppose a lot of views on here, on both sides, are perhaps dictated to a certain extent by the individuals interpretation and calculation of acceptable risk in association with attained skill set.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
abc wrote:
When the mindset changed, one crosses into the other.
I think what offpisteskiing is trying to say is that despite your statements to contrary there is a very vague line between skiing & mountaineering. That is very easy to cross over when skiing off piste, even if you yourself are unaware of this fact.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
frank4short, that's exactly why I say N America is better for skiers who wishes to ski off-piste. It's by and large NOT mountaineering to ski inbound off-piste in North America.
While doing so in Europe it is more or less crossed over to the "other side" of the line.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Parlor wrote:
I that I have the necessary skill set to comfortably ski on glaciated terrain that I have never skied on before
Parlor wrote:
The whole point is that I'm familiar enough with ropes that I can easily set up a crevasse extraction, if I needed to
I think you may be missing the point that many people here are making. Whilst you may be able to set up a rescue system, that's sod all use if you're the one down the big hole. Contrary to what Hollywood would have you believe, you very rarely end up half way down on a nice ledge with no broken bones.
If you really want to practice either get a guide or join one of the winter mountaineering course that are available.
I don't doubt that you can gain an insight in the skill required from a book BUT an insight is all it would be, without the in-situ practice.
So the points are. If you go down a big icy hole you'll probably need help to get out. You can not become proficient and practiced enough in winter mountaineering from reading a book to go out and do it. Make no mistake that glacial skiing is not what could normally be described as skiing, it really is (or can become "very" quickly) winter mountaineering.
I don't think you can learn this from a book.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Tue 15-09-09 21:07; edited 1 time in total
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Wayne, do you want to edit those quotes which I think are actually from Parlor?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
stoatsbrother,
ooops
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Wayne, when I ski over crevasses I'm normally pulling some massive inverted trick. Oh, and I'm very picky who I ski with, but thanks for the sound advice.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
parlor wrote:
I'm very picky who I ski with
Liar. You skied with me.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
Wayne, when I ski over crevasses I'm normally pulling some massive inverted trick
Wayne, when I ski over crevasses I'm normally pulling some massive inverted trick. Oh, and I'm very picky who I ski with, but thanks for the sound advice.
It ain't no thang unless you inverted!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Swirly, That was a pretty good summing up fella. Good job we never ski/board off piste on our own as well eh
So the points are. If you go down a big icy hole you'll probably need help to get out.
Yes, hence the not skiing alone thing.
Quote:
You can not become proficient and practiced enough in winter mountaineering from reading a book to go out and do it.
I agree but we're specifically talking about reading terrain and crevasse rescue. The former you never really know if there is a crevasse there unless you can see it or know from summer, all you can do is say that looks like an area where there may be crevasses lets avoid it. As with most of these things its not 100% either way. I learnt crevasse rescue from a book, of course I've practiced since, it's not rocket science to learn how to set up a pulley.
Quote:
Make no mistake that glacial skiing is not what could normally be described as skiing, it really is (or can become "very" quickly) winter mountaineering.
The majority of the skills in this post aren't winter mountaineering skills, you'll need to know exactly the same stuff on a wet glacier in summer I'd call it alpinism.
Back to the first point Arno says
Quote:
that doesn't mean i would dash headlong onto any glacier with any group of people in any conditions.
That's the core of this, there are a couple of people that I'd go most places with, but it's down to being in a group where you feel confident you can move about safely which come down to self sufficiency.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Anyone really wanting some practice of jumping over crevasse, go in the summer to Hintertux.
On the run just below the double poma (from about 200m below the poma and from there all the way down toward the bumps above the cafe by the 2nd cable station) there are big splits all over the place in the afternoon (they are there in the morning - just below the snow as well ??).
Go fast
Look forward
Try your best to go at the gap at a right angle
Jump just before you think you should
Hope for the best.
Watch out for the next one
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
