 Poster: A snowHead
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VolklAttivaS5, if you ask them outright though they all want to improve... eg those masters racers... just not enough to actually try to do the instructors exercises... they all have reasons they cannot, other interests, etc etc... they think they are working at skiing... in reality it is a social outing for them that happens to be on skis... but none of them will ever admit they are not race training...
sorry - I just get to be the person who hears the groans... my guys were instructor trainers... they had a few 'interesting' clients as well as the fun ones...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's a good thing skiing is meant to be a holiday, with or without instructors, where you're not allowed to have some fun. It's got to be work, work, work otherwise you'll endure the wrath of those people who really are taking it seriously...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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VolklAttivaS5, You said " The instructors don't pander to anything, I am sure that Sally Chapman and her team at Inspired to Ski know what they are doing in every respect anyway. " I was making the point that any instructor who called it a 'top' group when the people in the 'group below' were of superior technical ability should stop that and should not pander to the idea that faster/steeper/longer is necessarily better. This is what is propagated in the pubs etc. and WRT the instructor qualifications I don't think it's anything to do with careers, children, husbands etc why there are fewer female ski teachers at the top level.... it's largely because we are forced to be faster/steeper/longer in order to pass. If and when you get to ISIA or ISTD level (I think you're just starting out) you will see. You should also note that I have known most of these people for more than 20 years! I won't go into the long story of Phil and Sally and BASI common theory courses etc. etc ....
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easiski, I don't think I've said anywhere in this thread that they (the instructors) call it a "top" group and that was just a word I used just for ease on this thread rather than typing out "the highest level group there " every time. My point was, for some reason, from my observations on the courses (maybe other companies have more females in the higher groups, who knows) there seems to be far less females in say the two highest level groups than say the first two lower level groups (as in the example of the group I gave when I started with them as a Level 3 in Dec 2007), and we were exploring the reasons why that might be the case with regards to the strength of females, lack of testosterone etc etc. I did confirm also later that "top" is not a word that they, the instructors use:-
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| easiski, I think the top group only gets called the top group and not by the instructors in particular either on that note |
so they are not doing anything that you don't agree with in your explanation above, not from my experience anyway.
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You should also note that I have known most of these people for more than 20 years! I won't go into the long story of Phil and Sally and BASI common theory courses etc. etc ....
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Yes I had already assumed that you would have known both of them as they have been around a fair time.
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If and when you get to ISIA or ISTD level (I think you're just starting out) you will see.
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That's right, I started last summer and passed the Level 1 but now I have chosen to do a 3 year full time degree starting this September then I shan't be pursuing it (the instructor qualifications) for at least 3 years due to time constraints/concentrating on other things etc. I may continue with it after that though or even before at some point and do the Level 2 as I've been told at the end of last season that I am in a good position to pass that as I am now, so it seems a shame not to do it now after putting in a lot of effort to get up to the level required. Whether I will continue with it after that remains to be seen as I will have enough on my plate setting up as an Optometrist to invest the time needed to pursue it further than Level 2. I'm not looking to do it as a career so I don't need to pursue it any more than that really, being realistic.
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| VolklAttivaS5 wrote: |
| Whether I will continue with it after that remains to be seen as I will have enough on my plate setting up as an Optometrist to invest the time needed to pursue it further than Level 2. I'm not looking to do it as a career so I don't need to pursue it any more than that really, being realistic. |
Q.E.D. ?
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Wayne, exactly and I'm sure that I'm not the only female in the world who is in exactly that situation where they have something else career wise that they would prefer to do for whatever reason that might be. Mind you, I already had a career before deciding to change to Optometry so realistically ski instruction was never going to be more than a part time hobby/weekend work or maybe the odd week for Interski for me at any time if that. A good while ago I did investigate how long it would take and how much it would cost to get to ISTD level and we all know it costs thousands aside from the time and training you need to invest, particularly to pass Eurotest, assuming the person isn't a racer already blah blah and even then there is no guarantee that you'll ever get there, or it may take numerous attempts and therefore more money spent.
So then you ask yourself "Do I really want to be spending all this money unless I really, really, want to do it as a full time job?" and for some people, the answer to that is a definite "No" especially when you think it could cost thousands assuming you pass everything first time and it would take a bit of time to earn that money back after qualifying to top level. There are certainly lots of other options for careers depending on what the person's capabilities and interests are of course, so I think to go that far you have to do it out of love for the job.
It's not just about money, I'm not saying that, because enjoying your work and finding it stimulating/rewarding are important factors but certainly I'd say the cost involved getting to ISTD level comes into it for most people that don't bother pursuing the qualifications, for both males and females.
Just my opinion though, other people may have other needs/wants/priorities that then decide their path accordingly.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I don't think that there aew fewer female instructors because girls are put off by 'testosterone fuelled' courses, I think its simply because there are fewer girls who are actually that keen on skiing. At our university ski club the ratio of males to females is around 50/50 and the ratio of people who go on the hioliday is probably about the same. However on our weekly trip to the dryslope it is uncomon for a girl who is not part of a beginner lesson to ski, the rest just sit in the bar. The reason they give for this, same as with the boys who turn up but don't ski, is that the don't like skiing on dryslope. Most (not at all sure if it is most, but anyway its a fair number) english ski instructors take their basi level 1 on dryslope. If your averge female skier doesn't actually like skiing enough to bother on dryslope then shes unlikely to become an instructor is she?
And in my basi level 1 course although it was male dominated there was very little competitiveness or 'testosterone' about.
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rambotion, I don't see any BASI L1 courses on English dryslopes on the calendar, they are all indoors.
Sheffield is hardly a typical dryslope either, there is a good reason why no SSE races are held there.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Not sure I can reconcile that women don't like the "faster/steeper/longer" aspects (trying to keep it clean here). Surely that is what National Instructor Organisations have set the bar at so if you choose to get into a system/career where that is the case then caveat emptor should apply?
Whether its right or desirable or not is a different question - the racers obviously say that speed is the ultimate measure of technique, others will say that an empathetic approach with clear quality of technique is more important that the macho stuff. I know what I believe but then I also believe that the right L1 or 2 can a better instructor for some students than a very experienced but disinterested ISTD.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rambotion, not arguing that there are fewer women keen on skiing (at higher levels) than men, that is a fact and is reflected in the lower numbers of women than men doing L1 and L2. But what also happens is that fewer women than men continue through the system to ISIA and ISTD. If a certain percentage of women like skiing and teaching enough to do the entry level exams, why do fewer of them than men continue through the system, that's what I'm asking.
And don't mean to denegrate your L1 course, it's an achievement for sure, but it's not the kind of course where "testosterone" is going to be evident anyway - you're mainly learning to teach the Central Theme.
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I am a very keen skier but have no interest in being a ski instructor, perhaps a majority of women skiers take the same view.
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You know it makes sense.
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I don't know many ski instructors but have a bit more experience of people who have decided to devote their lives to boats. They're different. They are just focussed on doing whatever is necessary to make it possible for them to spend their whole time messing about in boats. For some that might mean becoming a Yachtmaster Instructor, doing deliveries, etc etc. And most definitely giving up the day job - and resigning themselves to never making more than a bare living out of it. Or maybe taking a more technical route - like a young guy I met a few times on boats run by the Ocean Youth Trust. He was the "bosun" - knew how every bit of the boat worked - and was planning to go on to become qualified in marine engineering. That kind of dedication has absolutely nothing in common with the kind of "holiday course" sailor (or skier) which I am - that only needs a bit of spare time, a decent income and a willingness to work hard for a week and put up with some discomfort. people who do the lower levels of ski instructor training seem to have absolutely no intention whatsoever of making it their career- any more than the masses of sailors who do their Yachtmaster qualifications . There are plenty of female Yachtmaster, but more men than women who make sailing their life.
The question here is why do fewer females than males take that further plunge? what sets them apart?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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fatbob, There is a time allowance for women in the Eurotest and also in Test Technique, but no allowance in the free skiing part of the exams. No-one is suggesting that women should not be as good technically - just that some of the agression expected (you have to see it to believe it) is less natural for women and maybe that should be allowed for. Certainly there is a vast difference in numbers of male/female ski teachers (I'm talking about professional full timers here).
VolklAttivaS5, If ski instructors exams are for part time, it's deffo NOT worth it to pursue it to ISIA or ISTD level - that is for people who want to make it a career choice. I understand where you're coming from now - apologies.
rambotion, IMO (which is contentious) - not liking plastic is an excuse for poor technique. Having said that I understand (but may be corrected) that Sheffield is in poor condition.
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Poster: A snowHead
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With regards women and mountaineering can I just throw in the name of Alison Hargreaves who I believe was quite "notable" and scored the odd "first". I'm also told she was "all female"  ...
... personally I think the reasons for low female participation are more social and cultural than plain physical although that may have some bearing.
easiski, interesting what you say - do you think less aggressive and competitive males are also at a disadvantage?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rjs wrote: |
| Sheffield is hardly a typical dryslope either, there is a good reason why no SSE races are held there. |
Off-topic, but why aren't any races held there any more? Way back it held numerous races including (IIRC) the All-England and the British. Has it gone to pot?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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roga, yes
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Wayne, I was just going to leave this, as you have your opinion, which is fine  , though I don't entirely agree with you, which is also fine .
But:
"many peaks have been scaled by all-female teams, and soloed by women". but only small ones, nothing big ever has.
is just not true. Alison Hargreaves springs to my mind also, as roga says - she climbed Everest unsupported and without oxygen. Wanda Rutkiewicz - Cho oyu and Annapurna solo. The first American summiters of Annapurna were an all-women team (led by Arlene Blum). Junko Tabei was the first woman to climb the seven summits. Chantal Mauduit (though she was certainly supported by men) climbed six 8,000m peaks, most of them without oxygen.
I don't have time to find a complete list, but checking through the five highest mountains, all have been climbed by women. More technical though not so high, the Eiger north face was soloed by Catherine Destivelle.
No-one's denying that it's much, much rarer for women, and i would agree that it's more difficult because of the physical strength, amongst other reasons (I think women, on the whole, are less inclined to sacrifice everything else) but it's just untrue to say that it doesn't happen.
I think that all-female teams are often a practicality rather than a political statement. And often, if there is a statement, it's because there are many people who say that women can only get to the top with the help of men, and some women would like to show that is not necessarily true, and why not, if they are capable?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
do you think less aggressive and competitive males are also at a disadvantage?
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I dont think it is so much to do with "aggression" but rather "go for it ness" . Women are less gung ho than blokes typically and this makes instructor course less and less appealling as you move forward. As much as they would deny it a lot of trainers look almost solely for technical ability sadly at the expense of teaching ability
as an example I saw two very good, dedicated middle age ski teachers (one male on female) fail exams just down to fairly minor technical problems with their skiing that they couldnt put right during courses. yet saw one very good technical skier (ex racer) who was an Appalling teacher get through an ISIA teaching exam, and one guy who was a moron get through a coaching exam.
If you are good on your planks you will get leeway but a dedicated passionate teacher rarely gets the benefit of a boarderline pass. Skiing bumps, high speed GS type turns does require a lot of athleticsm and "go for it ness" and this is prized more highly by some trainers than a great teaching session.
My coach ( a female BASI trainer) joked that she has to "strap on a pair of prosthetic cajones" when skiing at the Trainer conference...
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miss-understanding? Shouldn't that be ms-understanding? How sexist! 
I don't see what 'doesn't count' about *anyone* climbing Annapurna
If, for your definition of 'notable' you're looking for a first solo ascent of a major peak by a woman before it has been climbed by anyone, then OK, I can't think of any! I can think of one that was climbed first by a mixed group, (Alison Chadwick and her husband, I forget the mountain, maybe Gasherbrum III?)
Of course the mountain makes no allowances. But some women can physically do it. I just think that there are so many blanket statements around saying, oh, women can't do it, that it puts a lot of women off even trying, which is a pity.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 7-07-09 12:51; edited 1 time in total
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skimottaret, That's what I meant really - but going for it feels like agression to most of us (women)!
Here's a couple of things to ponder on:
Where skimottaret, quotes his female trainer, this is soooo true. Even when you've passed the ISTD/Grade 1/Nationale/whatever there's this 'up for it', 'don't be a wimp' thing going on and you have to prove yourself over, and over, and over - every day you're on the mountain. I feel the pressure daily, not just to be as good as the guys of my age, but to be as good as the guys young enough to be my son!  Whenever ski teachers get together this pressure is there, and if you're British it's greater because of the perception that we're not as good as 'them'.
At the first Val T EOSB I was really looking forward to the last day and an off piste trip with Philippe ... I'd packed a 'mufti' jacket and hat etc and felt I would have a holiday on skis for once, just to be able to let my hair down and relax. Unfortunately Admin (not realising the above) told Philippe who I was and that meant no relaxation at all - no holiday.  I felt I had to prove myself to Philippe all the time (a viscious vertigo attack at the start didn't help). What this showed me was that I could never have any rest/holiday on a bash which is a shame.
The point of all this is that it's immensely tedious and tiring, and without my clear vocation (I can't even imagine doing anything else) I wouldn't bother - maybe this also puts off many women who would otherwise be good enough.
skimottaret, Wait till you get there - shock city!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| firebug wrote: |
miss-understanding? Shouldn't that be ms-understanding? How sexist!
Of course the mountain makes no allowances. But some women can physically do it. I just think that there are so many blanket statements around saying, oh, women can't do it, that it puts a lot of women off even trying, which is a pity. |
Was waiting for the that the 1st mention of "ism" or "ist"
It's not. Of course some women can climb big mountains but a larger percentage of women can't than men can't. It got nothing to do with any "ism's" or "ist's" it's just biology. Women are made differently from men. Not talking about the reason women don't become ski teachers as that is more a personal choice. Most women can't go on big expeds coz they ain't strong enough. That's just how it is. Most women can't run as fast as most men, again biology. Female hips are made differently which means that can't move as fast. Of course there are some women that run like men and they can run fast - but only as they run in a masculine fashion. Women are generally not as strong and men - simple fact, the mussel groups are different. To go on expeds (other than tourist treks and "lead" climbs) you need to be able to carry very heavy loads at high altitude. If you forget the problems of altitude then you're left with strength. Not sexist, just how it is, but - of course - some women can and do go on expeds to big hills. The female only teams I have met around the world I have noticed do tend to really more on local porters (almost 100% males) than none female only groups?.
Most people expand their climbing in the same way they do their skiing. In climbing they start on simple low level stuff then progress to bigger hills. With skiing they start on green runs then progress to reds. Somewhere in this process most people decide not to continue. On climbs (mountains not rocks) women find they simply can’t cope with the requirements as the loads get bigger and the climbs get higher. With skiing, people (men and women) decide they can now ski well enough (it’s a holiday after all) and don’t continue to progress
I lead tourist treks all the time to strange places around the world. On low level (below 6,500m) treks and climbs (where I will hire in porters) the mix of women to men is about the same. On high altitude climbs women are outnumbered by around 90%. Just how it is.
Oh yeah, my mate Julie has been with me 3 times to over 8,000m. She is dead hard grrrrrrr
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| easiski wrote: |
| and if you're British it's greater because of the perception that we're not as good as 'them'. |
Fully agree with you there
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| easiski wrote: |
| Whenever ski teachers get together this pressure is there, |
That's true in my experience at L2 and at ISIA level courses; I'd guess it gets worse when you get into ISTD work. First couple of days of a BASI course are pretty intimidating, more for this reason that anything else.
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easiski, yeah i see that all the time... Blokes always check each other out and you need to be on form at all times when skiing with someone at a higher level you or risk getting the "standards must be slipping, how did you ever get your badge" look (one reason why i will never ski bumps ever again) .....Women never do that.....
there is a definate pecking order within BASI full certs... did you pass everything first time, how fast did your get through, how many goes did it take for the eurotest, did you beat the opener, you finally made ISTD when you going to be a trainer, if your a trainer which levels do you get assigned, did you race? if so to how many points, national team? FIS, WC etc... never ends..
for example Freeskiing after my ISIA tech pass we ran into an ISTD mate of his teaching a group, we stopped got a pat on the back for our passes, had a chat and as we were about to set off he said to the group only half jokingly "have a look at how these new 'professional' ski instructors make their turns.."
rob@rar, Best course i was ever on was training with mainly ISTD hopefuls, there was actually more comradery and helpfulness as they have been through the ringer and it was more of an "us against the machine" attitude as opposed to competition between each other cause they know hard hard it is..
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| easiski wrote: |
| ....you have to prove yourself over, and over, and over - every day you're on the mountain. I feel the pressure daily, not just to be as good as the guys of my age, but to be as good as the guys young enough to be my son! Whenever ski teachers get together this pressure is there, and if you're British it's greater because of the perception that we're not as good as 'them'. |
Perhaps comments like this on a public forum don't particulary help either:
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| Don't beat me about the head with Sally Chapman! You did not make it clear that you were talking about one particular course - your comments were general. Sally Chapman may be quite good - opinions vary. |
I was actually quite shocked to read one professional say that about another 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Wayne wrote: |
All female groups are another symptom of the PC world |
I disagree. I spend a lot of my free time skiing and mtbing, unfortunately not many other girls I know enjoy skiing or mtbing as much as me so about 90% of the time for mtb and about 50% of the time for skiing I am the only girl in my group of friends. Therefore if I do get the chance to spend some time with other girls who love the same things as me I jump at the chance, i think a lot of women feel like this. Its not so much about excluding men but getting to spend some time with women who share your passion for soemthing, I would imagine its the same with climbers.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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lynseyf,
There is a big difference between groups of women going off for ski holiday or a day's mountain bike riding. Big expeds take months of planning - I could send you some REALLY stupid e mails I have had today from Peru about a trip me and my mates are trying to set up to demonstrate just what a pain it is sometimes.
To form an all female group someone will have to make a conscious decision to exclude people based on gender. For our Peru trip we just asked around who has the cash and wants to come (we - greg, julie and me - rejected some as not experienced enough) and now we're a team - 5 guys 2 girls. That’s what you’re meant to do. To decide "right no girls, so we can talk about ferrets, steam trains and rugby, without being interrupted" never even crossed our minds. If we know you, you have the cash, you know what your doing, your want to join in, you know some good jokes, you don't fart too much in tents, you know the difference in use of a screw gate and snapper, your fit enough, etc etc then you're in - note no gender bar.
Some, many (not all but the vast magority) of female only groups on big hills are there to prove a point. Bit daft IMO but hey, not hurting anyone so (as I said) fine by me.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 8-07-09 11:45; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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cathy, The OP asked why more women are not at the TOP of ski instruction - eg: ISTD and why fewer go for the course if they are ISIA. I am telling it like it is for a female at the top. There's no point in pretending this isn't like that. If you want to be a full time professional ski teacher you have to put up with all this. Blokes like it, most women don't. You seem to have completely missed the point of the thread. Perhaps you'd prefer a lie 'never mind guys, once you get there it stops'? Re: your point 2: read the thread carefully first. Why should I tell lies to be PC? I don't agree with it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Women are generally not as strong and men - simple fact, the mussel groups are different.
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Wayne, don't clam up now.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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easiski,
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just to be able to let my hair down and relax
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I used to hate ending the day at Cairngorm for the same reason..someone in the pub would inevitably say 'You looked good on the Cas/Lady/whatever today'... which is why I really like to tele - no quals, no pressure
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ski, Or maybe they might say 'you looked crap' or 'I saw you fall over on' or .......... or.............
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wayne,
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Wayne, Superb
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FAQ
I don't think I'd bother going otherwise. I've especially enjoyed the ones where you and I have had a little ski round together 
