 Poster: A snowHead
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I was in Canada when this incident happened, I read the local papers and spoke with some of the local SAR team members,I can say that, time and the press reports, have as usual left a lot of the facts out from the start.
Its all about safety of SAR, RCMP members on a search in a hostile and remote area, things have to be weighed up sensibly.
It works the same in the UK, there are plenty of false alarms that do warrant a bit of sensible investigation before committing a team, especially if the information provided is thin on the ground.
However spotting a big SOS sign in the snow should have prompted a faster response from the RCMP, in my opinion, the weather was not bad at all and snow cover wasn't that bad that a skidoo couldnt get in for a look or a helicopter fly-by other than the heliski company who flew over an SOS sign and the man waiving at them.
It will be interesting to see how the law suit pans out, personally I think it wont get very far as the civilian SAR are insured by their local government defence agency.
Apart from the insurance it works the same in the UK, you call 999, the incident is given a job number which is then passed on to the local civilian MRT, from that point on the MRT have full civil liability and personal accident insurance from the MRC, mountain rescue council.
It is a sad thing when people die in the mountains and the guy will probably carry a lot of guilt that his wife died. I dont think its fair to blame him for skiing out of bounds being ill equiped, it may well have been a joint descision or even his wife may have decide it was a good thing to do. Its just a shame that the RCMP didnt act quicker and a shame that he has chosen to start a law suit against a civilian SAR team.
Cheers
Mark
OVMRO
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| mark handford wrote: |
| It is a sad thing when people die in the mountains and the guy will probably carry a lot of guilt that his wife died. I dont think its fair to blame him for skiing out of bounds being ill equiped, it may well have been a joint descision or even his wife may have decide it was a good thing to do. |
It is sad, beyond doubt, but do not agree with the "its not fair" bit. Life is full of decision points and each has its consequences. He (or she, or both) made a bad decision and paid for it. Who else else can be held responsible for that decision?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ulmerhutte, Surely that is the big problem with our society today? Everyone thinks someone else is to blame for their mistakes. Regardless of whether or not the RCMP should have/could have acted more quickly, to sue the SAR is a really bad thing to do. Imagine the result if all SARs disbanded because of law suits.
I also don't agree with mark handford, that the couple shouldn't be blamed for getting themselves into the mess in the first place. We've already heard that it was very clear from the top that they were headin ginto the back country. If you play int he mountains you should be minimally informed - it sounds as though they did everything wrong from the start. We had a similar incident here many years ago when a couple were discovered missing after their car had been clamped and no-one turned up for several days. They went off piste - no-one knew where or when - they were staying in another village - their bodies were found about 10 years later. 
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| skisimon wrote: |
| dread to think how lawyers who make a career out of suing the NHS are able to sleep at night. |
| skisimon wrote: |
| fatbob, yes, negligence/malpractice suits are a slightly different kettle of fish. |
skisimon, was about to reply to your first (pretty strong) comment, but it seems you have had a change of heart. ALL claims against NHS are based on negligence/malpractice. They only ever proceed to court if the claim is supported by medical opinion from other doctors, surgeons etc too. Some lawyers do in fact have a social conscience (believe it or not).
However, generalisations aside, I completely agree with your comment that -
| skisimon wrote: |
| how a volunteer organisation which has no requirement to provide a service can be sued for not doing something they are not required to do simply beggars belief. |
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| mark handford wrote: |
Its all about safety of SAR, RCMP members on a search in a hostile and remote area, things have to be weighed up sensibly.
It works the same in the UK, there are plenty of false alarms that do warrant a bit of sensible investigation before committing a team, especially if the information provided is thin on the ground.
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Yep, that’s about it, totally agree
| mark handford wrote: |
It is a sad thing when people die in the mountains and the guy will probably carry a lot of guilt that his wife died. I don’t think its fair to blame him for skiing out of bounds being ill equipped |
Agree again.
We have all done it. I have climbed, walked, trekked, etc in some places where if stuff happened there is no way I would have had the gear to sort myself and my mates out. You just look at something that looks fun and go for it. I have photos of me climbing ice bergs on a frozen lake on the Tibetan plateau. The nearest rescue was days away. But, at the time, it was fun. (although Mrs Wayne shouted at me when she looked at the photos  ) I have (probably) skied the highest of anyone on the forum at 8,200m and if I had slipped … well …. Big poo
Life is about taking risks. Walk accross a road and see what happens, how many people will admit to every now and again not looking both ways befor stepping out. This is what happens. I think the same thing "may" have happend with this chap and his wife. They just decided to do something and did it.
With skiing, I was skiing in 3 V's with a SCGB rep and he knew the area really well. We could both ski not too bad and we spent the days way out bounds and walking up stuff then whizzing off, down gullies off jumps, etc, but of course the whole lot or the gullies could have slipped at any time. But looking back it was just a brill day. The SCGB rep was well above the skiing standard of the normal reps so I had no problems in skiing with him well off piste. Not going to put his name (as he is on here under another name). We have all done this sort of stuff, it's what skiing is all about.
So we all do it all the time. It you climb up big cliffs you "are" going to fall off sometimes. Most of the time the gear you have put in stays put and stops you hitting the floor, "but" sometimes this ain't going to work and the MRT will have another statistic. We all ski places where "with 20/20 hindsight" it wasn't really a good idea, but that’s why most people ski.
When it goes wrong, it's no use trying to apportion blame. It's just what happens.
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Wayne, I think I was lucky to have learned to ski in an era when although pistes were marked they weren't groomed (no piste machines then), and to have skied with then 'old school' guides who impressed upon us not to take risks in the mountains. I have been in some dodgy places, but only with locals who knew the terrain, and have had the terrifying experience of falling, losing my skis and sliding towards a drop and not slowing down to start with - probably accounts for my 'fussiness' now. However it does seem to be an issue these days that with fatter skis and snowboards etc peeps can go into the steep and the deep without going through the 'apprenticeship' as it were. We had one killed here this year - ducked under the ropes and fence saying closed - very heavy snow - very dangerous conditions (4+), avalanched himself and died. First tracks are great, but they're not worth dying for. However if going seriously off the beaten track, normally I would expect people to have some idea of survival techniques - even if they hadn't practised them.
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easiski Very good points. What mystifies me about this case is that Canadian outdoor folk aren't generally stupid, they live in a country where even not having basic survival gear in your car for the drive to the next city can be a potential danger in winter. These were not 2 cocky kids either but mature grown ups who allegedly were not novices in the outdoors. In that context would you seriously expect anyone to follow someone else's tracks into an unknown but out of bounds marked area without gear for self rescue. Then furthermore, over a ten day period fail to locate a heli-op cabin in the valley despite apparently walking right round it or stay put by the SOS sign. I hope it all comes out in the court case and if RCMP have been negligent they should rightly be held to account for a limited part but IMHO it would be pretty sickening if the guy "profits" from it given the damage his legal actions may be causing.
Sorry better stop flogging this dead elk now.
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