 Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, depends on how well it soaks in. Certainly slopeside treatments on abrasive snow don't last very long. If the stuff is allowed to soak in overnight, it does last longer. The Felix formulas (ZN with regular wax on top) can last a very long time.
That said, Notwax is a decent choice for -sticky- wet snow, the sort that traps your skis with no visible water.
(high moisture sharp interlocking crystals)
I think ZN is a -superb- choice for pockets of wet manmade snow in between drier or colder natural snow (where the high moisture left on the skis from the wet patch freezes onto the skis as soon as the drier or colder snow contacts them. This is, imo, the injury mechanism in the thread I linked to above).
If water is visible when the skis are trapped, or for non-sticky porridge, a bar of plain bath soap is actually better than ZN.
(high moisture round crystals).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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a bar of plain bath soap is actually better than ZN.
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that sounds interesting; and much cheaper. Just rub it on?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So comprex, are then any conditions when ZN is better than soap in the bath? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| comprex wrote: |
| rob@rar, depends on how well it soaks in. Certainly slopeside treatments on abrasive snow don't last very long. If the stuff is allowed to soak in overnight, it does last longer. The Felix formulas (ZN with regular wax on top) can last a very long time. |
Yes, I apply it the previous night. I'll also apply a coat of Notwax on top of a regular hot wax just to finish off the job, and again it only lasts a few runs. It feels like one of those pure flourine accelerator waxes: amazing glide properties for a very short period of time. Can't help but think that if you're struggling with difficult snow that rubbing on a traditional wax with a cork block would be a better option than Notwax.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| comprex wrote: |
| rob@rar, depends on how well it soaks in. Certainly slopeside treatments on abrasive snow don't last very long. If the stuff is allowed to soak in overnight, it does last longer. The Felix formulas (ZN with regular wax on top) can last a very long time. |
Yes, I apply it the previous night. I'll also apply a coat of Notwax on top of a regular hot wax just to finish off the job, and again it only lasts a few runs. |
Try it the other way: Notwax first.
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Can't help but think that if you're struggling with difficult snow that rubbing on a traditional wax with a cork block would be a better option than Notwax. |
For the specific difficult snow conditions in which I think Zardoz shines (a) high moisture fresh natural b) islands of new manmade snow within pistes of colder snow), rubbing on traditional wax with a cork block is a hit or miss proposition.
If the block wax isn't fluorinated or otherwise compounded for hydrophobic properties and if the ski isn't brushed to within an inch of its life afterward, one can well wind up with a ski that is slower, grabbier, stickier than an unwaxed ski.
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rob@rar, No you're not alone. But it seems to last much longer applied on top of a good hot waxing. It seems to stick to the wax better than it does to a dry base, if that makes sense.
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comprex, if you apply Notwax first doesn't it inhibit the base from taking up the hot wax?
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| If the block wax isn't fluorinated or otherwise compounded for hydrophobic properties and if the ski isn't brushed to within an inch of its life afterward, one can well wind up with a ski that is slower, grabbier, stickier than an unwaxed ski. |
Agreed. Choosing a warm temp wax and thoroughly brushing the bases when you're skiing very warm snow makes a huge difference. At last season's EoSB I couldn't believe the difference in the glide qualities of my reasonably well serviced slalom skis and a pair of new from the factory slalom skis I tried for an afternoon.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| rob@rar, No you're not alone. But it seems to last much longer applied on top of a good hot waxing. It seems to stick to the wax better than it does to a dry base, if that makes sense. |
That's my experience as well.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
comprex, if you apply Notwax first doesn't it inhibit the base from taking up the hot wax?
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No, the ZN tends to get suspended in the melt wax. There doesn't seem to be a downside to the process until about -10C (natural snow) when you notice that all the harder waxes are a bit softer than usual.
We used to make ZN/CH6 mix in ice cube trays; technologically obsolete nowadays but still *cheap* compared to fluoros.
usual disclaimer: Zardoz give me stuff.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Best wax I ever had in sticky snow was a silicon wax.... perfect for "dead slow" grabby snow that makes people break by going a over t...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I always prime my bases with Notwax prior to hot waxing... it does seem to keep them pretty slick. It's easy to take the puck with you and give them a wipe over a couple of times a day. Helps to stay high up the mountains too 
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| comprex wrote: |
No, the ZN tends to get suspended in the melt wax. There doesn't seem to be a downside to the process until about -10C (natural snow) when you notice that all the harder waxes are a bit softer than usual.
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I'll have to give that a try, especially for spring conditions
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| laundryman wrote: |
| I try to keep the skis on edge to slice through sticky, grabby snow. |
That's my preference as well. In soft, slushy snow you can really crank your skis over to quite absurd angles without fear of them blowing out sideways. You'll cut through the snow with little sideways motion to trip you up, and its easy to power through the lumps and bumps. Make sure your skis are well waxed (this is one of the occasions when I'll go for something other than a universal wax) and keep a lot of tension in your core to resist being pitched forward when you hit a particularly wet patch of snow. |
I use this approach too. Makes it look like I can carve properly! A stiff mid-fat ski is the weapon of choice for this, with a generous dosing of NotWax.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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My wife finally got the message last week. Don't turn too quick let em run and you will have fun
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Poster: A snowHead
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Mmmmmm.... fat skis and cranked over slush. Heaven
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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till you hit some "stop you dead" stuff. Such a contrast to the super slush.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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pam w, On edges it won't make much difference.
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There is another, highly entertaining and slightly sketchy method for really warm and piled high slurry. With your toes and foot ends squeezing tightly upwards at the foot ends, your calves pressured hard back on the heel ends of your boots, you can 'ride' the snow on the very rear end of your skis using subtle steering methods to turn. Be warned, this only works on a reasonably steep gradient and requires very good balance. If on the other hand you have a lot of slosh to get through and the going is busy (such as resort approach runs), mixing the aforementioned exaggerated lean turns and this surfing approach can make progress both quicker and less stressful. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
On edges it won't make much difference.
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not my experience! I was riding my edges quite nicely down our home run at mid-day; progress unspectacular, but steady, with a nice "wake" of slush behind me. Then I hit a patch of the really sticky stuff and was chucked right forward, decelerating very suddenly. Then out of it again, into the slush - it was just a small patch.
It's very odd - a whole run of slow, slushy, snow - all of it slightly hard work, but perfectly skiable, then a patch of that quite different snow in the middle, for no obvious reason.
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pam w, I'm a bit curious now, what is it you find 'hard work' about slush? What are your muscles doing?
My tactic is to do -no- work in slush. No pivoting, no jumps, no hops, no tip lifting, and very little steering of the skis.
(I will confess to throwing the ski tips skywards with glee at each start, bending the ski backwards and assuming a waterskier pose in order to launch into the run, all this whilst whooping and screaming my head off in most demented fashion.)
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I'm with Pam on this - I find this odd bit of sticky in an otherwise slushy run very odd. It gives you quite a jolt when it happens. IBut I was generally finding using edges better and was putting in extra long turns in places I would normally schuss/straightline but today even that caught me out
In slush on a gradient I have adopted a lean-back-more-surfy type method with some success though probably looks scary.
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My tactic is to do -no- work in slush
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comprex, if I'd adopted that tactic on my home run at midday I'd still be up there. Skis parallel and pointed straight downhill, going nowhere. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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actually, I'd have been flattened by the piste basher by now....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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pam w, are you actually skating, then?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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comprex, sometimes skating, sometimes as long as the leg and my dodgy balance can stand on one edge (with all the weight on one edge it seems to cut through better), sometimes hanging off the back of the skis, swapping between the techniques to give the muscles a rest, but all of it is hard work, in my book. It's a 4 - 5 kilometre run, and the inescapable way home now that the alternative black run is closed for the season. Fortunately there are only occasional patches of that really sticky stuff. If it was all like that I'd have to take the skis off and walk down. I can't skate for 5 kms through treacle.
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You know it makes sense.
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i quite like skiing deep slush, had loads of it last week... Not sure if this is a good technique or not but I pretend I have a mono board on, keep the feet close together and use crossunder type turns and let the feet get out wide... feels like surfing
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
i quite like skiing deep slush
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me too. But not that sticky stuff - if you try the technique described in that, you'd just crash because your speed would suddenly slow so much and so unpredictably that you'd not have enough centrifugal force and gravity would become the master. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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I've just got back from 10 days in the Grand Massif, we spent most of our time in Flaine staying as high as possible where conditions held up pretty well until 1pm ish. I found the slushy but not bumpy stuff ok but on pistes where there was huge great mounds of it I was pretty useless and, for me, the best method was that described by moffatross, above - very tiring though and I'm pretty fit. I'm not saying I'd recommend this method particularly but it was the only thing that was working for me.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Further to moffatross's suggestion, we had an excellent demonstration of this in Grimentz last year. We were standing above a beautiful looking untracked small meadow. Sort of half against the guide's suggestion we decided to try the meadow rather than the grim looking path around it. Then, while we were standing hip deep in the gloop and trying to dig our skis out, the guide glided gently past with a huge grin on his face, feet just about at snow level and the ski tips about 30cm in the air . It does rather strain the leg muscles but is good fun if you can do it (I've done something similar on a dry slope  for a bit of a laugh one day when we were experimenting with different balance positions).
Rather less extreme, in sticky slush when there may be standing water on the surface, squatting down a bit lower than ususal, and sitting back to get the ski tips unweighted and planing over the surface keeps the skis running until you can get over the gloop onto something more normal. Keeping the tips down is a guarantee of massive lurches to try and avoid faceplants. If you're a bit younger, you can take the yoof approach of actually sitting down on the tails of your skis - you just need enough leg strength to stand up again afterwards (but not really recommended if you're over 30 - even if you can do it it looks like you're pretending to be 15). Showed to great effect by a guy I was skiing with this last weekend (also works well on the muddy grass we got on the approaches to P1 in La Grave).
As for wax, I use Polar X for all conditions - actually designed for super cold snow, but I find this fluoro wax works well. Lasts me for about a week, and not too expensive - costs me maybe £2 a year for 6-7 weeks skiing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
I use Polar X for all conditions - actually designed for super cold snow, but I find this fluoro wax works well.
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interesting.... i use that stuff indoors but never considered it for on the mountain
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
feet just about at snow level and the ski tips about 30cm in the air
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exactly the method my kids used to use to get around absolutely anything on their snowblades (the original short Salomon ones, two pairs of which I am about to put in the poubelle, the kind which were strictly NOT for use off piste). On flatter and/or deeper terrain this was done in a kind of leaping bipedal action, which they called yomping. Strictly for the under 18s.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w, my kids used to do that too.
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I'm finding these comments interesting. Got back from Tignes on Sunday. Classic Spring conditions - sunny pistes very firm first thing and slushy by 2 pm. Of course slush generally means small slushy bumps (assuming it was pisted otherwsie large slushy bumps!). Although I'm normally linking long or short carves down pistes, and can certainly do this through small slushy bumps, I actually tend to revet to a fairly old school mogul technique - skis close together, point down the fall line, short swings down the gaps between the bumps. I just find it more pleasant than powering through big piles of slush which is what happens if you stay on edge.
On the topic of the really wet gloopy stuff that can stop you dead, there's a black run that drops down into Tignes Le Lac called Trolles. It finishes with a big schuss to get you to the main lifts. You really need to be moving if the snow is at all sticky. On Sat PM I was coming down it at about 4pm and hit a super gloopy patch - had to absorb an enormous compression to avoid burying myself head first in the slop. Could have really entertained the crowd.
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I adore all wet gloopy snow (comes from being obsessed with going off-piste, combined with having most of my holidays at Easter) and can't understand all the fuss people make about the stuff. As I've said before on here, wet snow gives you guaranteed edge grip - surely the holy grail of skiing ever since the "carving ski" was launched.
I use 2 techniques - first the carving always on edge technique mentioned by Rob and others. This works well in virtually all circumstances, but when the moguls are big and slushy I tend to ski with the feet quite close together, skis quite flat, and allow the slush piles to trigger leg retraction turns. Braking and steering is done by subtley extending the legs against the goo as you come down the far side of the slush mogul. Using this technique I can easily do 50-100 turns at speed in big slushy moguls in control and hardly breaking a sweat.
I'm still crap at evil early season icy boilerplate and artificial though 
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Once the slush has become bumps then I stop carving and revert to bumps technique.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| Once the slush has become bumps then I stop carving and revert to bumps technique. |
The tchnique where you plant yer @rse on the top of each one?
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Plake, 100 turns? that's a long run...
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FAQ
