Avalanches claim victims in the Savoie

A snowHead

When I first started skiing I understood next to nothing of the causes of avalanches and risks of off piste skiing, but as a beginner would probably not go there anyway (though others might). Although the ski map gives info of the risk scale and the flags and what they mean it was several days or perhaps weeks until I turned it over and actually read about it (I am ashamed to say). This is really the first step of many in the learning process but far from all that is necessary. The first I heard of blasting to reduce avalanche risk was when someone mentioned it on a lift.

As someone stated above, most people probably become more aware of the risks of avalanches by reading forums such as this more than anywhere else (I certainly agree ~ that is one of the great aspects of Snowheads). The accounts included above from ‘PG’ and others only adds to that knowledge base. Putting up warning signs such as “ If you go this route you may die” will not persuade everybody to turn back (although it may help).

I think that as people take skiing more seriously and become more involved with the sport they learn more as they go. In my view education is the key (and stopping to think through the consequences of your actions), it’s just a question of where this knowledge comes from. Now that I understand a bit more I would consider undertaking a course to find out more about it and/or hire a guide to extensively ski off piste, rather than follow the tracks of others assuming it is save to do so (as mentioned above).

A snowHead

Amzing to see these threads and varied opinions.

Bacially off piste skiing is a very dangerous sport unless you have the assistance and the experience of a qualified guide. There is no way that avalanche warnings or signs will help boarders or skiers in the open mountain environment. Avalanches are not always predictable.

If your life is not worth the £50 odd quid to share a guide then just make sure that you dont kill anyone else please.

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PG, perhaps the ski passes should have warnings printed on them concerning the dangers of off piste skiing, mind you I sometimes wonder weather the people that ignore the avalanche warning signs can actually read Confused

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There are multiple factors to consider here. This was touched on, but we now have the technology within ski design that actively helps our skiing activity. We're tempted to ski further, faster and in a wider variety of conditions by the ski manufacturing community. We have all manner of skis to chose from, All Mountain, Free-ride and the big off-piste "phats", all designed to help us experience the adrenalin of reaching parts of the mountain once the domain only of experienced skiers and mountain "craft" enthusiasts.

The safety message seems to have been dulled by the adrenalin junkies all overdosing on the highs that are in no small part connected to the latest ski/board and accompanying marketing material. You only have to look at the video loops in snowsports shops of a boarder or skier gracefully carving fresh tracks to appreciate this. Not to mention in sports bars in resorts and the such like. Sticking up a few more signs, and stipulating the avalanche risk at lifts etc is not going to make people (in the main) think twice.

Looking at forums and the like is all very well, but even the largest grouped community of skiers (SCGB) with 27,000 members only scratches the surface of the wider skiing public. So forums aren't the answer (yet at any rate) for getting the message over to the masses.

The wider picture needs addressing. Tour operators, whilst selling that "perfect holiday" should take more responsibility for safety, after all, they have access at varying stages to the public. Manufacturers and hirers should also help deliver the message. Chalets, Hotels and Apartments should all display the warnings, or make their guests aware of the risks.

Off piste courses and training should be marketed/advertised with a greater element of fun, encouraging people to take the lesson and experience something new, but in the resulting controlled environment. As per SPOT in Tignes.

I'm not generally in favour of over-control. But this seems to be becoming an ever more sensitive area, and there is more that probably could and should be done.

After all it is free

Tie us all up in straight jackets please!!!!!!!!!!

Why don't we have a sign at each hotel exit saying that you might hurt yourself if it is slippery outside!

If people are not aware that going off piste has its dangers then maybe there should be a sign on their toothbrushes telling them where to put the bristles when they want to clean their teeth!

Please let us not get carried away here - signs are an ugly eye sore at the best of times - what do you want? Verbier to be re-modelled on Milton Keynes?????

Mark, I take your point but the majority of posters here are are skiers/boarders with some experience. I've lost count of the times I've been asked by a guest 'what do those flags mean?' but at least they asked. I've never seen a guest study a piste map in detail or ask me for details of relevant phone numbers such as pisteurs etc. The vast majority of people on holiday want a relaxing time and do not want to think of danger or potential problems. All we can do is point out potential issues, such as ' I wouldn't go off-piste on Petit St Bernard today' or there's a state 4/5 avalanche warning today' and come to think of it no one has asked what that means. We do put warnings on our notice board when appropriate but I don't think I can be expected to lecture anyone as to how they should conduct themselves.

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They could relax too by putting their heads in a gas cooker! But for some reason they don't.

Please...... the pistes are the marked runs where skiers should ski - stray from these and you are asking for trouble

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I think we can all agree one thing: the lift stations are the key places to make the warnings, because the vast majority of avalanche victims will have taken a lift to their graves.

The warnings should be illuminated, in easily-understood international standard format, if necessary in several languages. Anything else is really superfluous. The US approach of signs at specific off-piste entry points could not practically be applied to the vast playgrounds of the Alps.

So there is room for improvement in standardising the warnings and making them dramatic and unmissable, before that cablecar/gondola/chair is taken.

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Slightly off topic but at the end of the Lauberhorn Race there is a steep schuss with a turning just before it that is much easier, usually in front of the schuss there is a line of flags with a big sign in 4 languages saying "for experienced skiers only", a popular afternoon entertainment is sitting at Mary's cafe at the bottom watching the non experienced skiers sliding down on their backsides, all because they thought they could do it then realised they couldn't. The same situation I think applies to off piste skiing, people ignore warnings because they think they are good enough to be able to do so, plus they have no concern about weather any avalanche they trigger might kill or injure others

Mr DG Orf's observations are entirely accurate and beautiful succinct. AL least they don't have far to fall at the Lauberhorn - unlike Kitzbuhel!! The blood wagons are kept busy after the downhill race.

David Goldsmith writes:
So there is room for improvement in standardising the warnings and making them dramatic and unmissable, before that cablecar/gondola/chair is taken.

Actually there is more room for improvement in digesting basic common sense!

You know it makes sense.

headcase, But that's it. More and more people are going off-piste and increasing numbers do so without the right equipment and understanding of the potential dangers. And the "sexier" the advertisements from the manufacturers etc, the worse the problem will become.

Explain to us why it shouldn't be the ski industry's collective responsibility to try and ensure skiing holidays are enjoyed and not remembered for someone's death.

David@traxvax, yeah! The majority of us here have some experience. But 2700 out of 1m? Come on! And I bet that of our 2700, there are those that ignore the risks, or do have the "it'll never happen to me" mentality. Wasn't trying to suggest lecturing, more a process of getting the message through in a drip drip process via a number of means. If people then elect to ignore the warnings, I for one couldn't give a damn. Stupid people deserve no sympathy. But more could and should be done.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

More and more people are going off piste??? Do you dive into the deep end when you have not learned to swim?? And you don't need signs to tell you the water is too deep do you? When I was a kid I knew that the sea was deep and dangerous by looking at it. Please............

Understanding the potential dangers??? Dangerous is simply dangerous -

And come on "sexier" adverts have been around for eternity!

No excuse - it is NOT a question of the blind leading the blind..................

why always look at the fualts of others when it is our own responsibility - the resorts offer us good terrain to ski on - if skiers want more then they should access it the safe way - with guides....

A snowHead

headcase, so... why bother to post avalanche warning levels at all then? After all, if it's just a matter of "common sense".

C'mon, we all mistakes, the younger generations more than most. Are you saying that looking at how some deaths could be prevented is a waste of time - or in other words, if people die through their own stupidity/insouciance, tough luck? That would seem rather a pretty brutal approach to me.

A snowHead

headcase, on the one hand you advocate individual responsibility and suggest that people are aware of the dangers, and yet on the other hand you have twice said that people should stick to the pistes unless they have guides - but that is inconsistent and is exactly the point: people do not use guides and do not ensure that they have adequate skills and equipment themselves.

If everyone is aware of the risks as you say, how come so many ignore the advice you give about using guides?

I personally advocate individual responsibility but we have to be realistic and recognise that people are being encouraged more and more to be reckless - or rather, there is a drip feed of images which suggests to them that they are not being reckless when in fact they are. The ski industry (which includes us consumers, and is not limited to the manufacturers in an attempt to shift blame) cannot turn a blind eye and claim that the individuals should know better.

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I think signs may have a very limited effect, the experience of watching other skiers pass them and safely use the slope will quickly change the risk assesment for those without any other knowledge on which to base their decisions.

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Plake, I was in Les Arcs the day of the accident, and rode up the lift shortly before the 5 boarders. Riding up the Lanchettes chair there was a slab avalance just to the side and running onto the piste under the chair, at the top the chequered flag was flying, and non pisted areas were stripped of snow from the wind. There were not just ropes but netting blocking access to the patrolled area with avalanche warnings. I would have thought these were pretty good clues.
Sadly later in the day we saw a team on the other side of the Aguille Rouge digging in an avalance just above the Grand Col link, and heard that someone else had been pulled out after being buried for 15 mins - luck guy.
Having had a ball off piste in the heavy snow earlier in the week we stuck to the piste after seeing the two accidents, but I do confess to "cutting the corners" on some pistes up until we saw the real danger.
My point really is that harsh reality is a real re-inforcer for the warning flags. Perhaps the blackboards at the lifts should ram home the point and state the number of rescues and deaths in the valley each week?
Terrible for his family and for Ski Beat.

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Martin Nicholas Isn't part of the problem that resorts are reluctant to discuss injuries and deaths as it makes it harder to market themselves as an alpine Theme Park. Fun and thrills in a safe environment.

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There's quite a few comments in this thread about how the risk is obvious and should be plain to all who see it.

I disagree. We are an island nation and almost all would have grown up in some proximity to the sea. Consequently we are aware to some extent of the risks involved with winds, tides and sea.

Yes, there will always be a few who know the risks, or should do, but go on and take them anyway. That's natural selection for you. I have no objection to them doing that as long as they don't endanger others.

The point is that mountains and snow are pretty much an alien environment to most of us. We have not grown up with regular exposure to the risks associated with that environment. No wonder then that we know bu££er all about them. What little people have learned has been learned from marketing hype, and you should never believe the hype! rolling eyes

To assume that a danger is obvious to someone who has only been in a mountain environment for a week or two is wrong. (IMO)

Maybe tour companies should take some responsibility to educate their customers before they go. I can't see it happening though.

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oops. Double post.

After all it is free

Blimey - blame it on the industry - they are the big bad ones - easy Eh!

To say to use guides is not inconsistent - it IS simple off piste is off piste - there are already enough notices about the dangers - I never advocated not having any but we do not need more -

And then to say c'mon on we all mistakes - I guess you meant we all make mistakes -well fine - guesg I am hard because reading about all the accidents recently - most would have been prevented if the people concerned learned to respect the moutnains as they should be respected.
\They are not just a free for all glorified winter Disney Park! And there are sufficient sigsn around that make that very clear - just tyr reading them - like the chaps skiing down the Lauberhorn - too many people choose to ignore the warnings.

Martin Nicholas, maybe I've misunderstood your post, but the guy who died on Tuesday wasn't caught up in any slides under the Lanchettes chair, he was well 'out of bounds' in the ski de montagne area the far side of the Aiguille Rouge run as you get off the Lanchettes chair, on the Combe des Lanchettes. There was a slide to the right (by the Génépi black) as you ride up the Lanchettes chair, but that may have been a controlled avalanche.

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headcase, have you ever skied off piste without a guide?

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I do not ski off piste without a guide now - do I ski in powder? - yes - but on piste. And I am still alive to tell the tale.
I have lost enough friends in avalanches and have personal experience of being caught in some myself.

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headcase, so you were younger and perhaps not quite so wise once ? wink

I think we probably all agree that people who ignore warnings, and/or who don't bother to find out about the dangers, are idiots. Still, peer pressure, subtle commercial advertising via the likes of the Extreme Channel, lack of info from the TO's/resorts who don't want to scare off the punters, overconfidence, all play a role. You know better now. But you too could have been one of the statistics once.

"They are not just a free for all glorified winter Disney Park"....unfortunately, that is the very sort of image advertisers try and sell to their customers and the associated impression that a majority of punters have is that the mountains are in some way a benign habitat where the dangers fade into the background. And it certainly has been going on for ages.

The ski industry is not just about holiday companies, it's about manufacturers, ski hire operations, lift operators, the resorts as collective enterprises, ski schools etc etc. Co-ordinated efforts to reduce accidents is about saving lives, saving money and keeping skiing an enjoyable and affordable past time for those that wish to participate.

More and more people are going off piste??

from a recent article in the Telegraph

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

PG No I was in the hands of the correct people at the time - not on my own, when I exprienced the avalanches-

So now the Extreme channel is to blame! Come on - do we all go round shooting people like in the films??

IT is THAT simple - I see insane antcis on the slopes - when there is fresh snow - every day. People do not want to learn - they view the reward as greater than the risk - but the DO NOT know the risks

A snowHead

PG, I dont think we can blame the TOs. The poor lad killed in Les Arcs was infact a employed in a responsible position by a TO. I think there is some confusion as to what is off piste, is it "just the other side of the marker"/. Most people who are caught in an avalanche are generally "undoubtably" off piste, or am I wrong?.

A snowHead

SO the English newspapers know best?
I never siad that more people were not going off piste but that is because they get away with it most of the time and usuually they can do - just dont start crying if you get caught out!

The dangers are clear and there are enough signs and information out there - most choose to ignore it.

Also note Mark Warner guides are not allowed to take any of their guests off piste - so some companies ARE responsible.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Frosty the Snowman, Yes, I posted at the start of the thread "Our sincere condolences go to the family of the victim, the Ski Beat manager, in his second season in the resort."

My thinking was that holiday companies have the opportunity to hand out some basic safety leaflets with the booking docs, the suspicion being that this might not be done in case it puts off people from taking part in winter sports.

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Many do - the responsible ones certainly

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PG, that's all i've ever recieved.

After all it is free

Simple question - do these people deliberately play Russian Roulette? Surely not. Therefore they must all not understand the danger. if it were only one or two, you could say its stupidity. But the numbers you see off piste in dangerous situations means that they aren't getting the message. The question is, who should be giving that message.

When I skied without guides in the past it was because I was in a position to - having full knowledge of the terrain conditions and weather patterns over the winter - I would never ski in area I as not familiar with.

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SO the English newspapers know best?...The article referred to an interview with a French ski school that runs SPOT (Skiing the Powder Of Tignes) and quotes figures from them. So, one would hope they know what they are talking about. They have an area given over to off-piste training that is served by a lift, is marked off and made safe (as safe as possible) from avalanche. Initiatives like this are to be applauded IMO and are a positive way to drive the message home.

Help!!

Avalanches claim victims in the Savoie

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