 Poster: A snowHead
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pam w, What DVD's do you have? I have the Warren Smith Go Ski one.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| beanie1, I notice a big difference between skiers who like a thorough 'technical' description of what they are trying to do, and those who like an exercise to do or to try and copy a demo. Hadn't really noticed any correlation with when they started to ski, although my teaching experience is pretty limited. |
You are of course describing two classically different ways of learning which we all need to be aware of as they will occur in virtually any group of learners. When I was being led into an an understanding of this by a trainer, there was no suggestion of its being an age thing. I certainly belong to the former group and need to think through what is to happen before trying it, but I've always been like that I think. I wonder if this approach to learning is more helpful to an instructor as it means that he/she is a step ahead in teaching terms by having assimilated the techinical understanding during the learning process while the others have assimilated the movements by just doing them and then have to work more on the technical description of what they can now do?
Now back to jb1970. If you are more of the type of learner who learns by feeling and doing, your reading of books is less helpful than it would be to me and could even be causing confusion. So it is back to the benefit of some instruction. Could you fix up a session or two at Braehead? As suggested, it may be that there are only a few simple things that need to be sorted.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ccl, definitely an age thing - children don't want lots of technical explanation, they tend to learn by copying or just giving it a go, this is the nature of being a child, the way they learn how to walk talk etc. Adults however, can fall into different camps, as you say people learn in many different ways. The observation I made was that of adults of the same age, in my experience the adult who has started to learn to ski as an adult may be more likely to be the type of learner who wants lots of technical explanation, whereas the adult who started as a child and can't actually remember learning to ski, may prefer to continue to learn in this way. This is not a scientific survey, just an observation The sample's small so of course i might be totally wrong!
I think you're right in that those learners who like technical explanation might be one step ahead when it comes to instructor training - for the same reason that the very best skiers are not always the best teachers - they ski so intuitively that to actually try to break that down and describe how they do it is difficult. How would you teach someone how to walk?
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| beanie1 wrote: |
ccl, definitely an age thing - children don't want lots of technical explanation, they tend to learn by copying or just giving it a go, this is the nature of being a child, the way they learn how to walk talk etc. Adults however, can fall into different camps, as you say people learn in many different ways. The observation I made was that of adults of the same age, in my experience the adult who has started to learn to ski as an adult may be more likely to be the type of learner who wants lots of technical explanation, whereas the adult who started as a child and can't actually remember learning to ski, may prefer to continue to learn in this way. This is not a scientific survey, just an observation The sample's small so of course i might be totally wrong!
I think you're right in that those learners who like technical explanation might be one step ahead when it comes to instructor training - for the same reason that the very best skiers are not always the best teachers - they ski so intuitively that to actually try to break that down and describe how they do it is difficult. How would you teach someone how to walk? |
I was worried about teaching some kids how to go from snowplough to parallel ( im training), a more wiser instructor put out some cones for the kids to go round and moved them for a tighter turn. Most of them moved the ski to parallel without a word being said.
KISS = keep it safe, simple
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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MFC, absolutely.
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| easiski wrote: |
| rob@rar, Aah - but have you seen Fastman's DVD |
Yes, they are different, which is very refreshing. But I still think it's possible to mis-diagnose problems in your own skiing, or to focus on the wrong drills to correct things. I think instruction DVDs are an extremely valuable aid, sitting alongside high quality instruction. DVDs like Fastman's might even reduce the need for taking quite so many lessons if you work through the drills systematically, especially if you have a mate to video you so you have a more realistic idea of what you're doing with your skiing. But I don't think they will completely replace the need for an experienced pair of eyes to comment of your skiing.
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| MFC wrote: |
I was worried about teaching some kids how to go from snowplough to parallel ( im training), a more wiser instructor put out some cones for the kids to go round and moved them for a tighter turn. Most of them moved the ski to parallel without a word being said.
KISS = keep it safe, simple |
That's a good example. I know I have the tendency to talk too much when I'm teaching so I make a determined effort to keep lessons active and to try to get clients to develop their skills by skiing first rather than 'understanding' first. But if someone starts asking lots of questions it soon becomes apparent that they need a technical insight, so I'll talk a bit more to them about what movements and skills they are trying to develop.
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Yes, of course,teaching children is different. I was really reflecting only on adult learners who might not respond quite so well to playing aeroplanes, heads-shoulders-knees-and-toes, hopping like a bunny rabbit and all that.  But we grow into different kinds of learners. I wonder how and when this happens.
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| ccl wrote: |
| But we grow into different kinds of learners. I wonder how and when this happens. |
At a guess I'd say puberty. That seems to be an important tipping point for learning styles in the other bits of education that I do for a day job.
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rob@rar, yes one of the teenage boys in my class last week really didn't like any type of exercise, let alone game type ones! All he wanted was a brief explanation then to give it a go and just ski.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| rob@rar, yes one of the teenage boys in my class last week really didn't like any type of exercise, let alone game type ones! All he wanted was a brief explanation then to give it a go and just ski. |
Tricky trying to make sure he doesn't become a menace to other slope users! I like a little slalom course for kids like him - gives them a challenge, keeps their speed down and keeps them in a narrowish corridor. You can vary the turn size shape to try to help them get some control.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar, oh yes, we did lots of pole slaloms! He was a natural skier and not skiing dangerously - he was just at the age where he thought all exercises made him look like an idiot! I explained to him that the kids I coach at the race club spend two thirds of their time doing drills, which helped a bit...
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| Quote: |
they ski so intuitively that to actually try to break that down and describe how they do it is difficult.
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I think this is true of some of the French instructors I've used. Coupled with the fact that we don't have a common fluent technical language! It is still useful - you can stand and watch them do a few turns through the powder, imagine being inside their head, and have a go yourself. But for me, I need technical and detailed information. jb1970, I have the Fastman DVDs, and for me they are very good, because I can sit (in a chair, with my feet up, with a glass of wine  ) and understand exactly what he is saying about hopping from the big toe edge of your uphill ski to the the little toe edge of your downhill ski (or whatever). Even if I can't do it - I know what I'm aiming at and because the exercises are broken down into very specific steps, you do know whether you've succeeded or not. But yes, I still definitely need the eye of an experienced instructor to give me the feedback which should help to speed things up - that's why I hope to go to one of the June clinics.
One of my sons, a better skier than I could possibly ever be, has hardly ever had any lessons. He's "learnt by doing" and by copying - especially by spending a winter living with a top level BASI instructor and going out with him and his mates on their days off. They gave him some "hints and tips" and he just copied and did his best - knowing that he was way, way, way, below their ability. To me, that would have been simply terrifying and not at all helpful. He said they could "straightline" pretty well any run in the Espace Killy and that compared to them he was a rank beginner. If you always ski with a much more able, intuitive and stylish skier then I'm not surprised you feel a bit discouraged. You need to ski with some more ordinary mortals - like us - and that will probably be far more encouraging!
I think a lot of people just can't be bothered with "drills" at all and for them, lessons are of limited use because they won't do their homework. I was out skiing with friends today, trying out some of Fastman's drills, but they're not really interested. They do want to ski better (I am actually quite a lot stronger skier than they are, and they want to be able to try some of the more difficult runs) but I don't see how they are going to get there, unless they are prepared to put in the effort. When I am teetering across the slope on the uphill edge of my uphill ski they obviously just think I'm a bit mad! I was the only one who fell down today....
I think some kids do like drills, if they're fun - some of the kids who I see out here enjoying themselves the most are the ones doing backward skiing and 360s. They find that really cool, especially if their parents can't do them.
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You know it makes sense.
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jb1970, another question. Do you actually enjoy skiing? It sounds like it's all a bit of a mission.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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pam w, I think he does, it's just that he's a bit of a perfectionist and a bit of a worrier. (Takes one to know one. )
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Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
| jb1970, another question. Do you actually enjoy skiing? It sounds like it's all a bit of a mission. |
I do enjoy skiing very much (don't get me wrong, there are things that annoy me about skiing like all the faffing about before you even get on the slopes - but I suppose we all have something that annoys us about skiing). All in all, though, I do enjoy it, I just wish I could do it better. I think it might just be something minor that's wrong or maybe its just a case of "putting it all together". I was on holiday in February in Bardonecchia and went to Sauze d'oulx for one day (11 February - it sticks in my mind!!!) and I felt that I really was skiing very well (I think possibly partly due to Easiski advising me on here to push my big toe into the corner of my boot to initiate the turn (this came about because I was asking about - how do you actually turn - even though it just happens). I still wonder and try to think about how you turn. That day for me was a really good day.
Where did you get your Fastman DVD?
Hurtle you may have hit the nail on the head because I am a total worrier and quite neurotic sometimes (this is from the guy who is thinking of moving house sometime in the future - aaaaaaaaaaaargh!!).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| ccl, very good advice. It's easy to get confused by/follow too many tips from instruction DVDs or books (I speak from experience). It might be a relatively simple change that's needed to make big progress with your skiing, and a decent instructor should help you focus on what is important to your skiing rather than a scattergun approach inevitably taken by the instruction DVDs. |
No scattergun approach in Fastman's DVDs... 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
No scattergun approach in Fastman's DVDs...
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You can say that again.....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| little tiger wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| ccl, very good advice. It's easy to get confused by/follow too many tips from instruction DVDs or books (I speak from experience). It might be a relatively simple change that's needed to make big progress with your skiing, and a decent instructor should help you focus on what is important to your skiing rather than a scattergun approach inevitably taken by the instruction DVDs. |
No scattergun approach in Fastman's DVDs... |
No, not if you start from the beginning and work your way through the drills systematically. But if skiers pick and choose the drills they focus on, perhaps on a misunderstanding of what's wrong with their technique, then I think even Fastman's DVDs can be used in a scattergun approach. I wonder how many recreational skiers will systematically work their way through all of the drills which feature in those DVDs, practising enough to become competent at each drill? I guess very few people.
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jb1970, you may have a point about the neurotic worrier thing. I'm sure I never used to be one of these but I definitely am now and it's changed my life considerably. I was a MUCH better skier in my younger days. Not saying I threw caution to the wind, but the colour of piste markers didn't bother me and even dodgy conditions didn't upset me too much. Now I quake in fear at the sight of a black piste marker and freak out completely at icy and very slushy pistes...
I'm the same with other stuff now too. I'm sure I used to ride my motorcycle more confidently. Now I hardly ever use it and when I do I'm extremely cautious and doddery. I've been made redundant five times before and always managed to find another job, yet if it happens again during this recession, I fear I may lose everything I've ever worked for. You can see a pattern emerging. I've turned into a panicky old lady and I don't think there's a solution...
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queen bodecia, I am a total worrier about things, although I do not have a fear of black runs or anything like that (only narrow pistes - the ones that are like a road). In my life in general, I am a worrier, although sometimes I come across as being laid back.
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rob@rar,
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I wonder how many recreational skiers will systematically work their way through all of the drills which feature in those DVDs, practising enough to become competent at each drill? I guess very few people.
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Agreed. I now realise that, as a very occasional skier, who looks for other things in their holidays apart from technical improvement, I may not have made a very wise purchase.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
jb1970, you may have a point about the neurotic worrier thing. I'm sure I never used to be one of these but I definitely am now and it's changed my life considerably. I was a MUCH better skier in my younger days. Not saying I threw caution to the wind, but the colour of piste markers didn't bother me and even dodgy conditions didn't upset me too much. Now I quake in fear at the sight of a black piste marker and freak out completely at icy and very slushy pistes...
I'm the same with other stuff now too. I'm sure I used to ride my motorcycle more confidently. Now I hardly ever use it and when I do I'm extremely cautious and doddery. I've been made redundant five times before and always managed to find another job, yet if it happens again during this recession, I fear I may lose everything I've ever worked for. You can see a pattern emerging. I've turned into a panicky old lady and I don't think there's a solution... |
Its not just the skiing that worries you then, its most of your life by the sounds of it. I can safely say if i ever get to the stage of worrying this much about my skiing i would pack up and go on summer holidays round a poxy pool. The day i stop smileing and feeling my heart beat faster when i see the black piste markers or lose trying to find the holy grail of perfect skiing i may as well bug off home. Dont take it to serious and have a smile on your face when skiing.
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MFC, you misunderstand me, I absolutely love skiing. Why else would I forego a social life in order to pay for an annual trip...?
But I admit to being a scaredy cat these days. I know my limits and I don't go anywhere near them. I guess I'm a bit of a control freak. I tend to avoid situations where I have to relinquish control...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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queen bodecia,
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forego a social life in order to pay for an annual trip
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You have told us that you have financial worries, but this does seem unnecessarily extreme.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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queen bodecia,
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Getting a bit long in the tooth for that pubbing and clubbing thing now anyway...
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Fair enough. I like eating and drinking, inexpensively, at my mates' homes or at mine.
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You know it makes sense.
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Hurtle, I don't really do that either. Very occasionally my chick mates get together for a gals night in if I can wrench them away from their husbands long enough. Never any drinking involved though as we all live too far apart and have to drive...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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queen bodecia, oh dear, are they all married to horrible husbands, with whom you wouldn't wish to spend any time? Sorry to hear that. Some of my female friends have quite nice other halves, who don't seem to mind my cooking. They then toss a coin to choose the non-drinking driver and, of course, I can drink anyway, if we're at my gaff.
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Poster: A snowHead
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No horrible husbands thankfully, but as the only lone female in my circle of friends it's easy to feel a bit left out. I've got a couple of male friends (biker buddies) too but I don't really socialise with them. Pretty sure they haven't told their wives they have a female biker mate...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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queen bodecia,
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it's easy to feel a bit left out
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C'mon, you're a well-educated, interesting, emancipated person - life isn't just about coupledom. Mind you, if their actions are such as to make you feel left out, I'm not surprised you don't want to socialise with them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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[quote="Hurtle"]queen bodecia,
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life isn't just about coupledom |
Couldn't agree more. I'm very happily single and always have been. But the fact is single people rarely get invited to dinner parties unless there is another spare single person somewhere...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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queen bodecia,
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But the fact is single people rarely get invited to dinner parties unless there is another spare single person somewhere...
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I find that people are increasingly not worrying about having even numbers of men and women at their tables and, also, that the concept of a 'dinner party' is dying out in any event. Many more random invitations for a plate of pasta and a glass of plonk, I'm glad to say, though I do quite like the excuse to cook something interesting, 'cos I like cooking.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I actually like cooking when I can be bothered to do it. Doesn't happen very often. Maybe what you're saying is that I should invite them all round to mine for home-cooked veggie food and see who actually turns up. Food for thought. No pun intended... 
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queen bodecia, yeah, absolutely. I had some veggie friends round last week and I tried out two new things on them, which weren't bad. One was a gratin of baked endives with Stilton and walnuts (courtesy Gordon Ramsay - who is always publishing fantastic vegetarian recipes, despite his professed scorn for veggies) and the other was an omelette (of the sort which you cut into wedges) with spinach, cannellini beans and bit of Gruyere in it. I'm not veggie, but left to my own devices, my diet is very veg-heavy.
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Sounds very yummy. Never tried any GR recipes. Didn't realise he stooped so low as to create recipes for salad eaters...
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hmmm...stumbled on this posting....  ...and wonder if I should start a domestic....but I wont....instead I can make it public that JB in reality is a good skier! Just too concerned on technique and watching how good is everybody else. Must say after the time spent in L2A, Charlotte really sorted him out well and now can go everywhere....in Courmayeur we were down Des Eves more than once, including few days on fresh snow, managed to follow me from Salati to Alagna all at once, and for the few who know it he also managed to follow me on weismatten too....probably what I should do next is to get the camera, film him down a slope and then put the video on here ...... 
there are much worse skiers on the slopes and some have no concept of safety...never mind technique.
BTW, I am not as good as he makes it out....I just go down the mountain and enjoy it! To stay on the Courmayeur subject...anyone has tried the Bears' run? Well, I did, and was breathless at the end of it and the technique was really all over the place...but wow if I enjoyed it under the vigilant eyes of the Mont Blanc! well see, this is my other thing, I do beleive the mountain tells you the best way to ski...the best place to turn...just a matter of listening...but this is another story (the mountain whisperer!)...J thinks that I should increase the dose of my antipsychotics instead and stop listening to voices! 
I do beleive that skiing is all about enjoying the view, admire the beauty (still the mountain) and have a good day on the outdoor....ok the technique is important to avoid to fall too often, be safe for yourself and avoid incidents....but none of us here is planning to become the next Tomba, British version I mean!
Maybe we should go back to L2A and polish up the final parts of the technique!  .... next winter then!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, But that's just the point - you don't have to work systematically through all the exercises on Fastman's DVDs. Any or all of the exercises will help anyone at almost any level of their skiing. None of them are specifically to fix any particular aspect of anyone's skiing. It doesn't matter if a particular problem is mis-diagnosed - these sorts of excercises will help anyway.
They help with core skills that are lacking in many (if not most) skiers, and not only recreational. That's the whole point of the way he and I teach - it's not a 'whole thing', but parts of the thing, building to the whole. Therefore, although the DVDs are organised in exercises one after the other, you can happily mix and match. I would have to say, though, that the basic 2 would be better for most people I know, and you would want to be happy with most of these before tackling the advanced.
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Just in case you all haven't realised alpski is my partner (see his signature). As you can see, he is at the lower end of the posting scale!
He is talking absolute rubbish - I am not a very a good skier (he thinks I am which is due to the fact that his perception is different - something to do with being Italian!). He seems to think that if I come down a slope/the mountain, I am doing fine which I am not as you can see from my original posting (feeling out of control at one point and ending up just transversing across the slope instead of continuing to turn - hardly a good skier).
In his posting, when he talks about Salati to Alagna and Weismatten, he means Gressoney and not Courmayeur.
Charlotte Swift (Easiski) did really give me a lot of confidence and pushed me on a great deal when I was in Les Deux Alpes.
Don't know about filming me (will need to take a raincheck on that!!).
Personal note to partner:
I thought you were supposed to be working, not on Snowheads embarrassing me with all my cybermates!!!
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