 Poster: A snowHead
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achilles, if such a system were both feasible and affordable, I'd expect every underground system in Europe to have installed it before now. If you stop the chimney effect, you also kill anyone in the area, as the fire consumes all of the oxygen and they asphyxiate quicker. Leave the tunnel open and any survivors can breath for longer, but the fire is more intense. Like most H&S "improvements", damned if you do and damned if you don't.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ousekjarr, hmm. I see the problem.
I remember an American sitting down beside me on a plane to St Louis and talking tome - as Americans do. Turned out he was a fire chief visiting to see how the St Louis Arch authorities would cope with a fire on the train (which ahas gimballed carriages) that had taken me on a previous visit from the base to the viewing plat form at the top. Got me wondering!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ousekjarr,
I do work with engineers and specialists who model transient condition of a train going through a tunnel. May be the issue of opening a door at the top of a funicular is a white herring because it should really be the control, or opeing, throttling and closure, of the ventilation system at the critical point of a fire at stake here.
You open up a debate of the grading of runs.
I am also interested in the subject as I find it difficult to judge.
I will start by saying for any run the best condition has to be when a piste has been freshly groomed. From my experience a skier comfortable with red runs can do a freshly groomed black easily because it is remarkably easy, smooth and controllable. This makes me think may be the grading could be pegged at the freshly groomed condition.
Nobody can control how much a piste run is scarped by the piste users, nor the weather turning it to icy by alternate warm and cold weather, nor exposing hazards after the snow is removed and the underlying rock and grass appear. Therefore it does not sound sensible to grade a piste by basing it on a “used” condition after several thousands skiers/boarders rushing it through say at the end of a skiing day.
My point is surely the icy condition, moguls or other hazardous situations as a result of weather or man-made activities cannot be a basis for grading a piste run.
I found the Harakiri, the steepest black run in Austria rather educational. This piste is too steep and unsafe to be groomed by a free-standing machine. To groom it safely the machine has to be pulled up or connected by a steel cable. Thus one can expect any groomed black run to be unlikely significantly steeper than Harakiri as a snowbasher would loose traction at a steeper gradient.
Ungroomed black runs therefore are able to have section steeper than Harakiri and have moguls to increase the challenge.
I suppose for short sections a snowbasher can groom slope steeper than Harakiri which is less than 45 degree of 1 part vertical against 1 part horizontal (100%). The actual gradient showed by the sign is 78%. The arctangent of (78/100) is actually 37.95 degrees. The information of Harakiri would suggest over a long distance it may be unsafe for machines to groom un-aided on slopes steeper than 38 degrees or 78%.
I wonder what are the views from other SH.
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hi all, im actually in zell at the moment and witnessed this poor guy being airlifted off the slope.
I didnt think that the run was that bad condition wise but it is steep and at speed obviously anything can happen.
I was next to the strecther as i couldent get passed, as were around 50 others and i thought it was serious as the helicopter dropped a cable and whisked him off, and the downdraft nearly knocked me off my feet because of the urgency it flew in!
This has not been mentioned in resort as i guess they want to keep it quiet, im off to flannigans the irish bar now,
ill have a guiness in his memory and im buying a helmet tomorrow (after 30 years of sking without one)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I skied the slope in question a few times last Saturday afternoon, it was quiet scraped and twin tips aren't ice huggers so I skied every bit of powder along the piste edges I could find. If I had carving skis it would have been fine but there were loads struggling but no different conditions to any other shaded blacks at this time of year.
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| saikee wrote: |
This makes me think may be the grading could be pegged at the freshly groomed condition.
Nobody can control how much a piste run is scarped by the piste users, nor the weather turning it to icy by alternate warm and cold weather, nor exposing hazards after the snow is removed and the underlying rock and grass appear. Therefore it does not sound sensible to grade a piste by basing it on a “used” condition after several thousands skiers/boarders rushing it through say at the end of a skiing day.
My point is surely the icy condition, moguls or other hazardous situations as a result of weather or man-made activities cannot be a basis for grading a piste run.
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I'd go the other way entirely, as the freshly-groomed condition will exist for maybe 15 minutes, after which the slope deteriorates as it gets used and the prevailing weather affects it. Under your scheme, a slope could start the day classed as a blue, but by the end of the day it would clearly be for experts only, as it could be scraped, icy, and with rocks showing through. Going at it the other way, it would be a black, but under perfect conditions it would be easier than average for a black. Your way misleads beginners into thinking it is ideal for them. My way tells them it isn't, even if the conditions look perfect.
However, the criteria for grading is presumably not based solely on gradient or run condition. It is also dependent on the width of the run, and what would happen if you left the run with minimal control, so a gentle run down a ridge which would be a blue anywhere else becomes a black because while it may be a 5 degree slope, it is 10 metres wide with a 500m drop on either side, and suffers from strong sidewinds.
In an ideal world, each run would have an indicated difficulty rating between 1 and 5, or 1 and 10, which would be updated throughout the day based on the changing conditions. However, that's still subjective, and relies on costly technology and either regular piste patrol inspection or user feedback, so I doubt whether it will work any time soon. I've skied black runs which I thought were too easy to be at that grade, and then come back the next day to discover that they had changed completely, and fully deserved their black status. Since the resort management can't change the signs and piste maps on a daily basis, they have to indicate either the average or worst case, as showing the best case would have the whole mountain as blue or red slopes.
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ousekjarr, I am certainly not advocating bubble wrap on anything.
What I am saying is that ZamS and most European resorts seem to be doing very little about irresponsible and incompetent skiers who put there own and other skiers safety and lives at risk, whether deliberately or otherwise.
What I have said about black 11 at ZamS is IMHO a fact, the existing signage is not stopping people with insufficient ability going down there.
I am delighted to hear about increased piste control in France and very much hope it spreads elsewhere rapidly, it does not need to be piste police, but should have sufficient powers to punish the dangerously irresponsible and equal measure of discretion to help and educate the innocently incompetent - which we all once were.
I've never skied in the USA but will do next year and will be very interested to see how it works there.
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robboj, I agree with you on the lack of "policing" on the slopes, but I'm not sure that there's either enough of a problem to employ people specifically to address it by skiing around all day looking out for idiots, or enough of a will among skiers to pay for such a facility - let's face it, on 200+km of slopes, you'd need a team of 20-30 people to make any difference even if they concentrated on the popular runs, so on quick estimate, that would cost about £5K per day to provide. I don't have stats on lift pass sales, but I would imagine this would add 5-10% to the cost of a week's pass, and so if you asked people whether they were prepared to pay that, I have my doubts over whether they would.
As for black 11 at Zell, every black run I've ever seen has had its share of scared people and those who don't have the skills to be there. Do you remember your first time on a black run? Did you need an underwear change at the end of it? If your answer is no, then you were either very confident in your abilities, or very well taught, or both. The only way to learn how to cope with steeper, narrower and icier slopes is to give it a go and see what happens - yes, you can build up to it by tackling the harder reds and in difficult conditions, but the step up to doing blacks is still a significant barrier both physically and psychologically. Experience brings comfort, but everyone has to start somewhere, and so those who are taking it slowly and wobbling a bit are just like those who've passed their driving test and have the new "P" plates on - you don't believe they shouldn't be on the road, but you give them extra space because you know they are inexperienced.
Drunks on the other hand are a different matter, and I'd happily support a breathalyser test on the slopes, especially having seen people who have 4 large beers in 40 minutes for lunch followed by a dessert of schnapps, and then get back on their skis.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Sad news 
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I know the skier that died in the accident reported here. To eliminate some causes of speculation here's what we know (very little)
He was a recognised excellent skier, experienced in skiing blacks
He had skied this particular run approx 14-15 times previously
The run condition was not reported bad near the accident
Nobody else was near him when he fell. An instructor saw the impact but not the fall.
He had no alcohol taken when he fell.
Like most of us have done, he fell at high speed, unlike us he was unlucky in that he hit something solid.
One second he was there, the next he was gone.
We cannot blame conditions, signage, resort overcrowding, beginners, drunks etc.
People get killed crossing the road, people get killed skiing.
Quite simply, nobody will ever know why he fell. His time was up. He died happy after a great days skiing.
That's what we know. May he rest in peace.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Mon 9-02-09 19:02; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Amen to that. Thanks for taking the time to sign up and provide some information. I'm sure all of us would wish to send our sympathies to his friends and family.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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irishfriend, thank you for taking the trouble to post your account. So sorry for your loss and for that of his family and all his friends. A sad first post, but welcome anyway.
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irishfriend, my condolences to you.
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You know it makes sense.
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irishfriend, welcome to snowHeads.
Sorry to hear about your friend's accident, and thanks for your words here.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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How sad for his family and friends , may he rest in peace.
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Poster: A snowHead
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irishfriend, thank you and sincere condolences.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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irishfriend, thank you for making this real for us, and sharing what you know. Best wishes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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irishfriend, Firstly our condolences to his family and friends, may they have some solace in the fact he passed away doing something he enjoyed and loved.
Secondly welcome to  s.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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irishfriend, Many thanks for the post. Sincere condolences to all friends and family.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I see they have changed one of the signs at the top of the Hari Kiri this year, it no longer states the gradient of the piste (4 in 5 I seem to recall). The various signage (and the name) do egg rather egg you on don't they? I can't decide if it's actually that hard a run, I have only skied it once and landed up doing half of it on my back head first wondering what my head was going to hit. One of my friends was more worried, he too fell and had me and my detached skis following him. But if I hadn't bottled a turn and lost an edge, I would have skied down it without any great drama, good thing it's not too long tho. Does make me think the French have no idea about naming runs, "kamikaze" in La Plagne anyone? Barely a red 
It's another of those "blue at top, black at point of no return" runs too.
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Ghost Dog, it's 78%, which makes it 35.1 degrees.
I've done it a number of times, and there's nothing particularly hard about it other than its reputation. It is short, steep and narrow, but so are many other black runs. The difference is that it is pisted, advertised, and used as a selling point.
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I am also a friend of his and wanted to add that he was wearing a helmet at the time of the accident
May he rest in peace
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Ghost Dog,
The 78% is sign posted at the top of Harakiri.
This black run is groomed. The reason why it has a name for itself is the piste basher needs to be winched while grooming. This suggests Harakiri may be near the limit of a groomed piste and only ungroomed piste can be steeper.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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yoyo, condolences. Thank you for posting and welcome to snowHeads. Hope you find something a bit more cheerful to think about here.
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