 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I could deliberately slam on my brakes when driving and cause the driver behind me to crash in to me, now I know it would be their fault but in reality my eratic driving is the casue of the crash. I saw on TV a scam whereby drivers deliberately pull in front of other cars to cause a crash and benefit from from the insurance.
My point is that just because some one is 'up slope' does not mean they are always in the wrong from a practical point of view, and that erratic skiing is a real problem in many cases, and when there are a lot of skiers in close proximity to each other.
As a boarder if I catch an edge and fall in the path of an 'up slope' skier - who is at fault ?
also does 'up-slope' come in to play on the flat?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| As a boarder if I catch an edge and fall in the path of an 'up slope' skier - who is at fault |
The up slope skier is.
The example you quote of drivers deliberately trying to cause a crash only succeeds if the driver behind does not leave enough stopping space for the speed they are traveling at. I do my best to ensure when skiing I leave either enough stopping space or "change of direction" space for people below me. Sometimes this means giving them a wide berth (very wide in the case of boarders  ) and sometimes it means slowing down.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| ... if I catch an edge and fall in the path of an 'up slope' skier - who is at fault ? |
The up-slope skier/boarder is at fault.
If they can't avoid you, they are skiing/boarding beyond their ability. If they want to ski/board beyond their ability, they need to ski/board somewhere that the consequences of their incompetence can only directly injure them. BTW, if a mountain user manages to collide with someone on the flat (I presume you mean a lift queue or similar), they should have their goolies cut off. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I had a collision coming down into Mottaret once where the fault wasn't really either of the people involved. It was a busy piste, late in the day, and it was only my second ski holiday, so a blue run was still a challenge. We were skiing more or less at the same speed and parallel with each other, but both knew we were there, and weren't encroaching too close to each other. I was actually skiing a little faster than the other chap and had moved fractionally in front of him. Then the kids (well, aged about 10-13 years I suppose, so some of them were bigger than me!) from the local race club came blatting past at high speed. One came so close to me he actually brushed my shoulder. At the same time another passed to the other side of the guy skiing parallel to me. We both made sharp avoidance turns away from the stream of kids, and towards each other. My turn was a bit tighter than his, and we both collided head on, fairly slowly.
The chap I collided with was French, and about as good a skier as I was from the turns he had been making. He was very apologetic and helped me to get up - lots of "Je suis desole!" and concern for me. Neither of us were hurt. Technically, I suppose he was just in the wrong as I was very slightly ahead of him. However the real culprits had gone. The collision between us was, I think, a true accident, but the cause of the collision definitely wasn't.
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maybe my attitude to this is informed by being a cyclist in london, but i don't really care about fault - i just don't want to be involved in a collision with anyone so:
1. i ski pretty conservatively if there are other people about
2. check my blindspots when i am doing turns which take up a lot of space
3. look upslope if i am traversing, on a piste which is merging with another piste, rejoining a piste having been off-piste
4. generally work on the basis that the people i can see will do the most retarded thing i can think of
etc
my one collision was with a snowboarder (a friend of mine) and was off piste miles away from anyone. we both set off in opposite directions, put a quick turn in and found ourselves heading straight for eachother. no damage done but a case of us both being as stupid as the other i think
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I should think it's always bad luck/an 'accident' if you hit someone - we are playing a dangerous old sport if there are nutters zooming round a mountain with the prime pre-meditated intent of taking out other slope users.  Same as I shouldn't think there are many car drivers that cause accidents who actually intended to (though I was once rammed by someone who was attempting suicide!!). If you crash (no matter what you are doing at the time), you risk serious injury to yourself - hence my terminology of 'nutter'. After all, loads of people unintentionallyt crash and take out no-one - it must all be about bad luck.
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Luckily I've never taken anyone else out, but I have been taken out by an out of control snowboarder. I was just bimbling along as usual, fat and conspicuously dressed in purple, I heard the sound behind me of snowboard scraping across an icy patch then the next thing I knew I was down with a snowboard where my hat once was. The chap in question was American, young, cute and very apologetic. I even let him buy me a glühwein... 
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| Megamum wrote: |
| ... it's always bad luck/an 'accident' if you hit someone. |
No, it's always bad judgement. Just an accident I'll accept but bad luck I won't.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret, the question was:
When is Hitting another skier "just an accident" ?
OK, so turn the question on its head - when is hitting another skier not an accident?
Ergo, if its not an accident it must be planned.
I go back to my statement if there are nutters zooming round the slope planning to cause accidents then we are all in trouble.
BTW so as not to lose sight of sense of humor entirely given the thread title can we assume that if you hit a boarder that you are allowed to? 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| rayscoops wrote: |
| As a boarder if I catch an edge and fall in the path of an 'up slope' skier - who is at fault |
The up slope skier is.
The example you quote of drivers deliberately trying to cause a crash only succeeds if the driver behind does not leave enough stopping space for the speed they are traveling at. I do my best to ensure when skiing I leave either enough stopping space or "change of direction" space for people below me. Sometimes this means giving them a wide berth (very wide in the case of boarders ) and sometimes it means slowing down. |
the example of the scam I gave related to people cutting in front of a car or lorry so that the driver, even though they originally had enough space in front of them to stop in good time, they then found themselves with some one who deliberately filled that space and then slammed on the brakes, a police car was monitoring it with CCTV and it was impossible to avoid the crash, i think it was even done with assistance of another car 
I just have a bit of sympathy with s skier or boarder who is skiing/boarding quite happily within their limit when something happens to propel another slope user in to their path, maybe some one jumping off the side of the piste, or some falling in a haphazard manner along side the skier/boarder
i has a skier who fell some distance in front of me and i had plenty of time to go around him, except he would not just fall and take the hit and decided to do a 'cart wheel' across the narrow piste in a misguided effort to get up whilst still in a falling motion, followed by a strange ballerina style spin from one edge of a narrowish piste to the other, i did avoid the chap when he eventually came to stop but for a split second at the last minute he presented his face right in front of my line of riding by falling from the side of me and across in to me, but I managed to turn away from him and pass without any damage done whilst I was at fault because of my position marginally behind the chap when he eventually stopped spinning across the piste in a vain effort to get up using the momentum of the fall, I would have felt little remorse if I had given him a clip
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You know it makes sense.
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moffatross, so if I jumped in front of you from the side of the piste are you still in the wrong as the 'up slope' slider ? or to be more realistic, what if you were safely passing me on a narrow track and i caught a huge edge and propelled myself in to your path just as you were at a line with my rear shoulder but a just technically behind me?
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 30-12-08 15:55; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rayscoops, In the context of snowsports, yes of course I am. If I ski that close to the side of the run and it is even possible for someone to join from the side of the piste and for me to hit them then I would hold myself at fault. When driving a car, I slow down and pay extra attention when I anticipate that there is even a chance that children or drunks might suddenly leer off the pavement and onto the road. I even worry about a sudden mechanical failure on the car if the pavement users are not erratic types. Get me on an empty motorway or wide sweeping A-road when there is obviously nobody to harm other than myself and I will often break a certain law, lots.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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moffatross, The thing is I don't think skimottaret, has asked the right question.
The issue is - is it an accident if you hit another slope user whilst being in control, or not an accident if you hit another slope user if you are out of control.
Then the issue becomes who is to say what constitutes being in control. Lots of times here you hear that instructors try to push learners outside their comfort zone. People might do this without an instructor being with them - if you are outside your comfort zone are you out of control or just pushing youself. until you pop outside your comfort zone you don't know if you have the skills to cope, at that point if you do have the correct skills you stay in control. If you don't, but recover so you don't crash are you/have you been out of control? Should you not have pushed yourself to improve? etc.
Its all so subjective.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Megamum, there are very few examples of true "bad luck" collisions. Sure they happen but most collisions involve at least some culpability on the skier involved in causing them. Just like in plane crashes it can be a single big mistake, but more typically it is a chain of small errors that lead to bad crashes.
Give me an example of a collision and invariably someone did something stupid and that had a causal responsibility in the crash. I can understand easiski going ballistic with this as there seems to be loads of people here that just shrug their shoulders and assume that "skiing is a dangerous sport" and that "bad luck" is the cause of most accidents. etc.. rubbish...
If i hear "sorry mate" one more time as some dickhead comes hurtling towards my knees after skiing/boarding like a moron i will be up for GBH...
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Methinks the Chaos Theory may apply here.
In todays world we have an almost anal obsession for trying to explain EVERYTHING. Can you imagine the computer program needed to predict even the simplest of "crashes".
The vast majority of accidents come mainly from over estimating your ability at any given time, underestimating the conditions at any given time or circumstantial chance (Chaos Theory).
John.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret, I think you are right, but there are occasions when people fall on steeper slopes and cannot stop which although technically may be their 'fault' I would classify it as an accident.
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| BCjohnny wrote: |
Methinks the Chaos Theory may apply here.
In todays world we have an almost anal obsession for trying to explain EVERYTHING. Can you imagine the computer program needed to predict even the simplest of "crashes".
The vast majority of accidents come mainly from over estimating your ability at any given time, underestimating the conditions at any given time or circumstantial chance (Chaos Theory).
John. |
so if a butterfly flaps its wings on the other side of the world, it causes some punter to crash into me? 
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| T Bar wrote: |
| skimottaret, I think you are right, but there are occasions when people fall on steeper slopes and cannot stop which although technically may be their 'fault' I would classify it as an accident. |
If they are skiing slowly enough and it's not too steep they should come to a stop without hitting anyone. If the slope is so steep that they would slide uncontrollably you should make sure that you don't ski directly above other skiers, or at least give them sufficient distance so they can get out of your way as you hurtle down the slope. Off-piste there are also avalanche issues to consider, so you shouldn't ski directly above other skiers for fear of triggering a slide on to them.
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ok, what if a boarder falls whilst getting off a chair lift, and the next chair has a instructor and his/her student and the instructor tries to stop but nudges the student who in turn crosses skis with the instructor and falls and hurts his/her knee and it is the first hour of his/her trip and has to go home a week early ?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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There seems to be a school of thought on this thread that you should only venture on the slopes if you are a expert skier with the ability to avoid any action by a skier in front of you whatever he does .
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| Arno wrote: |
| BCjohnny wrote: |
Methinks the Chaos Theory may apply here.
In todays world we have an almost anal obsession for trying to explain EVERYTHING. Can you imagine the computer program needed to predict even the simplest of "crashes".
The vast majority of accidents come mainly from over estimating your ability at any given time, underestimating the conditions at any given time or circumstantial chance (Chaos Theory).
John. |
so if a butterfly flaps its wings on the other side of the world, it causes some punter to crash into me? |
Either that or they're going too bl**dy fast..................................
EDIT for spelling......Twice.Doh.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar,
I have seen pistes where an uncontrolled slide is a distinct possibility and which are too busy to wait for a clear moment.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| T Bar wrote: |
| skimottaret, I think you are right, but there are occasions when people fall on steeper slopes and cannot stop which although technically may be their 'fault' I would classify it as an accident. |
If they are skiing slowly enough and it's not too steep they should come to a stop without hitting anyone. If the slope is so steep that they would slide uncontrollably you should make sure that you don't ski directly above other skiers, or at least give them sufficient distance so they can get out of your way as you hurtle down the slope. Off-piste there are also avalanche issues to consider, so you shouldn't ski directly above other skiers for fear of triggering a slide on to them. |
so that would mean on most steep blacks that we would all have to go down 'one by one' in case we fall and can not stop sliding
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You know it makes sense.
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| riverman wrote: |
| There seems to be a school of thought on this thread that you should only venture on the slopes if you are a expert skier with the ability to avoid any action by a skier in front of you whatever he does . |
Not really, just keep to appropriate speeds for the terrain, snow and busyness of the slope you're on. Outside of school holidays this usually means you can ski at ballistic speeds with very little danger to others, so we're not really talking about hampering people's fun too much. Even this week, which is very busy, I've had plenty of opportunity to ski stupidly fast on quiet pistes.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I've never skied into anybody else, but I seem to be a magnet for other people skiing into me which I just don't understand. I wear bright jackets so I'm hardly invisible and I've got witnesses who can't believe how often people either ski into me or come far too close for comfort. I was taken out last year on the black down to Laax at the widest bit of an all but empty piste by a girl who decided she wanted to ski where I was and I still have a pair of old ski trousers that bear witness to how close someone came to me from the horizontal slice across them near the bottom from the other skier's ski
Re the cat tracks, obviously it's ideal to be able to have a "slow lane" and a "fast lane" but it's not always possible; the track in Laax from the Tegia Miez down to Curnius has been upgraded to a red this year so we decided to find out why - it's because they've narrowed it to about 2m wide
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
There seems to be a school of thought on this thread that you should only venture on the slopes if you are a expert skier with the ability to avoid any action by a skier in front of you whatever he does .
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that isnt my point. people fall down during skiing, it happens all the time. But if beginners, intermediates and all other skiers follow the basic rules, collisions should be a lot rarer than they are.
It is the attitude that Sh*t happens and lack of awareness of basic principles in all levels of skiers that bothers me..
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| T Bar wrote: |
| skimottaret, I think you are right, but there are occasions when people fall on steeper slopes and cannot stop which although technically may be their 'fault' I would classify it as an accident. |
If they are skiing slowly enough and it's not too steep they should come to a stop without hitting anyone. If the slope is so steep that they would slide uncontrollably you should make sure that you don't ski directly above other skiers, or at least give them sufficient distance so they can get out of your way as you hurtle down the slope. Off-piste there are also avalanche issues to consider, so you shouldn't ski directly above other skiers for fear of triggering a slide on to them. |
so that would mean on most steep blacks that we would all have to go down 'one by one' in case we fall and can not stop sliding |
No, I think it means use a bit of anticipation which is sensible.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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eng_ch, Are you a 'babe'
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| so that would mean on most steep blacks that we would all have to go down 'one by one' in case we fall and can not stop sliding |
Are you talking about a wide black piste, or a narrow couloir? There is plenty of width in the majority of black pistes for any number of people to go at the same time. I'm not suggesting that you wait until people clear the bottom of the piste before you start your run, just leave enough room (20-30m?) so that if you do miss a turn and fall you will either be able to stop before hitting someone or they will have time to scoot out of the way as you slide past them.
Would you want someone a ski's length behind you on a steep, icy black? I know I wouldn't, so feel it's only fair not to inflict that potential for disaster on someone else.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, but therein lies the problem, the fact you did not crash in to someone means you arenot at fault, but on any other day some one could have traversed across the slope with out warning straight in to your line, you might have neen able to stop in most circumstances but you hit a divot or bit of ice or your achilles decides to pop at that very moment so that you have no control and crash in to the other slope user
I just feel there are certain reasonable assumptions or risks that we take every day in our lives and this should also apply to skiing and boarding, otherwise we all need a piste to our selves
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rob@rar slight exageration I know but you get the point, just a general black piste whereby if i fall I am likley to take out others in my path - the Swiss Wall is a good example whereby due to the bumps there is no way of knowing what route some one on their @rse will take
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| I just feel there are certain reasonable assumptions or risks that we take every day in our lives and this should also apply to skiing and boarding, otherwise we all need a piste to our selves |
When have I said anything different? You seem to be taking the view that because not every single collision can be avoided we shouldn't bother with trying to minimise the risks, just carry on with little regard for the safety of people around us. That's not a view I agree with. I know full well that it's impossible to completely avoid collisions, but there's a lot that could be done to reduce their frequency and severity if some fairly common sense measures are adopted by all skiers & boarders.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| ...on any other day some one could have traversed across the slope with out warning straight in to your line, |
Without warning? Are they going to pop out of some intergalatic wormhole? If someone skis directly underneath me on a very steep pitch I'll see them coming and will have the option to stop or adjust my line. I might well hurl some abuse at them as well, but I'll stop or adjust my line.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, I think your point about reducing the severity of of accidents is very valid. Having very fast skiers and slow beginners on blue slopes returning to the village is when lts of bad incidents happen . In my view speed limits on most blue runs would help prevent lots of collisions.
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FAQ
. Do you really believe that ski and car accidents are just bad luck unless caused by malicious intention??? does nothing you do help reduce the chances of accidents. If i crash at speed and there is a group below me is it bad luck if i happen to smash into one of them.. honestly 
Your intent wasn't lost on me. 
, when if the slower skier did something silly or turn at the last second, then a crash would ensue,
