Teaching technique - snowploughs...

A snowHead

Something else that I guess I should add about my possible "Z" turns - we were dealing with solid ice in the morning - nasty chopped up slush by about 1pm kind of conditions - which I actually suspect probably helped my skiing a bit - but anyways!

I'm going down to MK xscape tomorrow to have a play on my new skis (Head iC-170), and I'll try pay some attention to what I'm actually doing with my feet once I've convinced myself I remember how to ski!

A snowHead

GrahamN, I thinkyou were just taught badly I'm afraid.

ssh, I generally agree with you but not on this! I'll walk you through the way I do it .... Day one - straight running and balance exercises, getting the student confortable. then to plough, able to control speed on very gentle slope and use small tow. Day 2, the student has proctises (or I might poke them with a stick), and can confidently ski down the small slope varying speed at will. To turn: (it's very important you explain this right) plough down the fall line turn the chin to the shoulder on whatever side you like (make sure they don't turn the body at all) and the skis GO ROUND THE CORNER - magic!!!! Next teach them to traverse (still on tiny slope), parallel of course, weight as per normal on town ski and open to evenly weighted plough - wow the skis turn into the fall line all by themselves!! Then of course try both bits one after the other. they've turned and they've done NOTHING. they've discovered straight away that the skis turn you, you don't turn the skis! Very Happy

Try it - it really does work Very Happy

. I showed this to the BASI mob 18 months ago when I was recycled, and none of them believed it until they tried it. There was one old lag who turned his body so it didn't work - but I won't name him!!! anyway, of course at this point you do have to explain that they need to put pressure on the turning ski (and what that is etc.) and you can then move on. I find this works fantastically well. Very Happy

However to get back to the point, I find that with carving skis (and I won't teach anyone on old skis), it's not necessary to teach anyone parallel turns anymore. Just plough turns and more and more committment to the turning ski until the skis turn parallel - after all the mechanics of the turn are basically the same - put pressure on the ski and let it do it's stuff. Generally I find that if the student is not afraid they are ski-ing decent parallels on green slopes by the end of the week. I do use the inside ski tipping and turning that ssh, talks about, but mainly for people who are stuck in plough due to poor teaching or fear.

Sorry it was so long folks rolling eyes

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Thanks guys. The theory sounds familiar - practise is another matter! I can do the rotating thing (I've watched enough French people do it!) but I can never get an edge on ice. I have my own skis and they're always sharp so it isn't them but me. It's the confidence thing and being able to commit when the slope is icy. I can do steep so I must have the technique somewhere ........... it just fails me when it matters! Ah well - I shall just have to practise. Oh - that means more skiing!

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Jane, that sounds tough! Cool

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

easiski, I think you're right. That first week was an all in holiday+lessons deal run by a small independent ex-racer (who I later saw presenting Ski Sunday one year). I think the intermediate and advanced groups were supposed to be OK, but the beginners' tutor was rubbish - not even sure he was qualified. Can thoroughly recommend the guy in Argentiere though (Alain Bertrand at Panda Ski) and Yann Westerkamp in Flaine - both brilliant and inspiring, although both possibly less keen on full-on carving than either of you would like.

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I can thoroughly recommend Phil Smith's courses which he runs in the Alps. They are superb. The teaching is tip top and although you are in a small group you receive very individual feedback. I've been skiing for several years but I still made mega strides.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

You want carving?
You want good teachers?
You want eager students (which is something we haven't mentioned yet, but is a BIG factor in ski lessons - if the student is only taking the lesson because it was free with the package holiday, or because a partner/SO has suggested it, etc, but don't have a strong motivation to learn, then this can bring a group down)

Anyway, where was I?

Oh, yeah, if you want the most EPIC ski school ever, I mean, we're not talking about a school, more of an Academy, and one which supports snowHeads, then there's still time to sign up, and book flights to be in Montana (where currently they have a lot more snow than Europe) for Sunday 23rd January, in time for the EpicSki Academy ( http://forums.epicski.com/announcement.php?f=14 )

This blatant plug has been brought to you by the letters W, T, F, and H, and by the number 3.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
EpicSki Academy is a production of EpicSki.com
No animals were harmed in the making of this commercial.
Past performance is no guarantee of future snow
Ski lifts may go down as well as up.

After all it is free

Wear The Fox Hat, you're getting giddy at the thought already Very Happy

Jane, wider stance, more commitment to the outside ski (more of your weight there) in the shaping and control (mid/end) phases of the turn. That will let those edges really grip.

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Jane, I agree - Phil Smith is excellent.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Wear The Fox Hat has it right. C'mon, ya'll, just think: ski with the best teachers, have a bonehead video you (that would be yours' truly--my role there has recently changed), learn a ton, connect with skiers from all over, and generally be immersed in ski learning for a week. What better experience can you imagine?!

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easiski, I am going to have to try that myself to see what you really are saying. The approach is certainly "unorthodox" for around here (I'd not get my level II cert if I tried that!), but, if it works, it works.

When you're talking about "ploughing", are you in a gliding or braking plough?

GrahamN, There are lots of degrees of carving, and you do also need to be able to rotate your feet and occasionally push out the heels of the skis. Lots of different turns to make. I think the point about carving is that if we all aspire to ski on our edges, it's then easy not to if you don't fancy it then and there, but if you can't ski on your edges, it's too late when you really need it!

I do tend to notice these days that when we get to the bottom at La Grave (in between the trees, rocks, narrow valleys ets) many people don't have the skill necessary to negotiate these bits (which I personally think are the most fun). They're fine on the steep open snowfields at the top, but serious foot and ski control? I try to teach a selection of techniques (including some older ones - the stem christie is the best turn ever for getting you down anything in any conditions for instance), but tend to use these later in peoples' ski-ing lives. The shame is that most people seem to think it all stops with parallel turns - they never really get to the good bits!! Sad

You know it makes sense.

I think today I realised what all the snowploughs/stem turns ect would add to my skiing - once I have my speed up (bar being a little rusty) I was happily doing some fairly tidy turns - as soon as I had to manouver slowly, it just became shabby; I wouldn't say I wasn't in control - but I'm certain I didn't look good.

So - what are my options - go back to square one? just concentrate on it myself until it works, or take private lessons to work on my low speed technique?... (actually - take that last one out - my wallet just screamed in my pocket Sad

)

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

IanB, so what did you figure out? Where are you going slow? What are you trying to do when you're going slow?

Going slow is my favorite time to work on carving technique: I rock my feet gently from side to side, generating nice carved turns. Doesn't slow me down, either, so I can just continue slowly down gentle terrain by doing that.

But, I think you're talking about something else... Puzzled

A snowHead

Usually when I slow for the *real* beginners so I can wait for a chance to get past - Just finding it difficult to control my skis and keeping them tidy when trying to turn at lower speeds (not carving). Maybe I'm being a little harsh on myself seeing as this is my first time on skis again since I learnt 8 months ago, and I only became reasonably happy with my faster turns in the last 30 mins or so of my 2 hour session. Although, they still need work as I know I've skiied better.

My guess is that its a combination of needing to practice on my general position, leaning during turns - which I assume the speed lets me get away with(! - I *know* its bad!!), and just a little lazyness maybe.. Puzzled

A snowHead

IanB, speed usually covers errors, yes...

I suspect you're right, and practice is in order. Guiding those slippery things around can be a challenge! Another lesson when you're ready probably makes sense, too.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I'm off to Tignes at the end of the month, so probably get an afternoon of lessons, just to give me some corrections on what I need to work on. Although I'm hopeing that as I know what I *should* be doing, the time on the snow by itself might let me correct some of those! Certainly once I get to the level I feel I was last year I'll want to have a little polishing! (Evo2 is looking good so far... )

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Why are people so hung up on carving..?
It's just another turn. If you want to showboat on a cruising red or black then fine.
If you aspire to ski other places you will need more than one string to your bow.

I have been more than happy to stem or snowplough and I agree with the idea
that a stem is a great way to do that first nervous turn in places that you don't get to so often.

If you only think of carving you can forget about skiing off-piste away from the crowds...!!

I would say that anybody wanting to develop should get their teacher to take them out of their comfort zone
and up the hill. If you want to ski a carve turn exclusively then you will never get beyond a flat piste be it black or red or blue.
It's a great turn but it isn't the only one you will ever need...!!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

JT, whilst it certainly isn't the holy grail of skiing, it is a type of turn that many skiers hung up on skidded turns aspire to. Most modern skis are designed to make a carved turn within reach of most recreational skiers.

And isn't that what most of us are? We see our "heroes" on the TV and (amusingly) aspire to ski in some semblance of similarity.

It's a great feeling! And it's fun!

You are right, of course. To fully appreciate the mountain, a wide range of turns are essential, as conditions change, steepness changes etc etc. What carving under control gives many of us is confidence, and that often is enough to then mount a challenge for overcoming off-piste, or whatever.

Besides, who's ever looked back at their carved turn to check out those elegant, arced tramlines that stop at their tails and not smiled at their beauty? wink

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JT, fair point, but if you're going to use modern equipment, it's better to use it properly in the right circumstances. If skidding turns on piste is your thing, then stick with old gear, I mean it's like driving a car using only 1st-4th gear, because in the 70s, that's all cars had. Carving turns on modern skis allows you the 5th (and 6th) gear.
I carve on groomers, cause it's fast, fun, and uses the equipment better.
I bounce around in powder, cause it's fun, and makes the turns easier.
I skid and use the bases more in bumps, because that's how I get down them.

And when I'm on the chair going back up again, I like to see good tracks that I've left behind. Very Happy

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

JT, don't knock it till you try it. It's a blast! It's not the be-all and end-all of skiing, but it makes otherwise boring terrain fun again.

It's fun! But, it's not all there is.

After all it is free

Ok but as long as people who aspire to it know that it is not going to revolutionise their skiing.
Or put it this way, you will get a lot further skiing the whole mountain without it than with it.

If you only have a carved turn consign yourself to a flat piste because it isn't the most helpful in moguls,
for example, zipperline technique has got absolutley nothing to do with carving..
It isn't what you need in deep snow either. You don't want too much of an edge there.
It will not get you very far off-piste at all, in fact. And if you do get to get first tracks doing huge great
GS turns is very selfish. Most guides will have you skiing tight S's so you save the mountain for another trip, either yours next time, or someone else's.

To me, a carve turn is when you zip around on the skis and get the sensation you are on rails.
There are an awful lot of places on the mountain when you don't want to carry that speed through the turn

What I see so much in skiing is that there are an awful lot of pretty skiers on good pistes that fall apart when
things get tight. And as the thread is about teaching snowploughs then that is a more useful and safe turn, as is a stem.
They aren't as fancy but they will get you down almost anything.
By all means apsire to carving but it is only a turn, and one of many you will need.

Any other impression is just plain wrong and I would be very surprised if any teacher advocated it.

JT you've obviously never carved off-pite, it's more than equally valid as a technique and it's something you couldn't have done with straight skis. Don't knock it until you've tried it.

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David@traxvax,
I'm sure I have. I'm pretty sure I have used every turn in my book and do it quite often.
My first carving lesson was in '87 for 2 hours and very instructive it was too but I was on 200m GS skis and
it was a lot harder to keep them on edge back then.
I don't say don't use a carved turn off-piste but I do say come with something else.
Because you are in trouble if you can't side-slip, stem, plough, jump, kick and whatever and this is what people should have. And this is what ski school should have taught people somewhere down the line or at least the most basic of those turns.

I'm not against it, I agree it's fun but
it isn't right to give the impression that the carve turn is what you should do all the time and aspire to.
You should treat it as a turn to use as and when because there are far more places you don't want it than do.
But for a blat down pistes it's great but whether it's the turn on a off-piste slope I would think there are other things to consider.

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JT, You are right that it's just another turn, but quite wrong that no-one turns around to look at their tracks! Lots of people do. Smile

However, if you can't do a basic carved turn then you're probably not stable enough on your skis to do any other type of turn apart from a basic parallel. It seems to me that the basic carved turn is the base for all advanced turns (and I include stem step/stem christie whatever you want to call it in that list). It's interesting to see how many of the World Cup guys and girls do still step during their descent. Edge to edge roll isn't always enough. Also (especially in Super G) quite a few of them "float" the ski sideways and then apply pressure.

Did you read my last comments? You seem to have re-iterated a lot of them in your several posts since then!

David@traxvax, Quite right - you can carve perfectly well off piste as well (what are all those Freeriders doing if not carving?) Very Happy

IanB, It's always more difficult to do things slowly, but although I wish I had a penny for every student who's told me they ski better faster (it happened again today), it's never true. When you go faster you just don't notice your mistakes! Go slow and you feel everything, but also in parallel you do have to get the sequence of movements pretty spot on to get a good turn. Better to plough than to push your skis around - it becomes a bad habit very quickly. Sad

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ssh, For the turns, in a gliding plough. Of course it's unorthodox - so am I, but the whole point of my system is to make learning to ski as easy as possible. I don't believe in "skispeak" certainly disagree with many of the "guru" types who try to blind people with science. If it's a spade call it a spade I say.

However, to be more serious I discovered this by teaching children and watching how they learn. I found that it was completely unnecessary to tell them how to turn - once they could plough they could follow the "snake". So I started just telling them to look where they wanted to go and hey presto! they went there. So then I thought "will it work for adults?" Only one way to find out .... Of course you do have to explain about the ski turning by pressure and all that stuff, (I do it AFTER they've made several successful turns) and you do have to add to it when you move to other than almost completely flat slopes, but the point is that for their very first turns they find they don't have to make any effort and the skis turn. That means that they never start any sort of rotation to turn, and therefore never have to unlearn it. I'm sure you find as I do, that the majority of middling skiers tend to rotate with their turns - not their fault - they were just never taught not to. Sad

You can try it at home. Stand with your feet in a snowplough position and move your chin to the shoulder. You will feel a little more weight going onto your opposite foot. It's just a trick, but it works well. Children let their bodies do naturally while they're ski-ing what they do the rest of the time, but adults put lots of blocks in the way - less is more - the tortoise and the hare (do you have that story in the States?) ....

Having said all this it's one of the advantages of having passed all the necessary exams, being fully qualified throughout the world, and working for myself - I can try off the wall things, and if they work I can use them. Very Happy

easiski, very, very interesting. And, you're right, I don't have that luxury (have to follow the prescribed pattern for now--at least in clinics and exams!). Yes, we do have that story in the states! Cool

You know it makes sense.

If you assume I don't use a carved turn you are wrong.
If you assume that I think it is a bad turn you are wrong
If you assume I say people should not look at their tracks you are wrong
If you read my posts you will find I only say it is not the only turn.
Why should people who sound like they have skied a lot get so defensive about it.
It's only skiing.

I understand some people make a living from ski teaching but if you preach that this turn
will solve everyones problems on the slope you are wrong.

easiski,
I agree with your assessment about racers embellishing their carved turns with steps
and I agree with you about your off-piste clients. As a teacher you would want them to be safe, i'm sure.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Just to come back to the snowplough for a minute and, as someone with experience of both the Austrian and Basi way of teaching things, I think that the snowplough is a reasonable way of introducing people to ski and possibly the only way to do it on 'normal' length skiis and your average terrain.

The problem is that people were/are taught to lean over/out the turning ski and this encourages a straight leg, locked at the knee. BASI emphasises a stretch and rotation to start the snow plough turn followed by absorbsion. This extension and flexion of the ankle and knee when taught correctly gives people a habit that helps develop parallel skiing and avoids the stem that lingers with a lot of people.

Related to the point about steep slopes, carving is not the only skill in skiing. Its virtually impossible for even very good skiiers to ski steep black slopes and fully carve the complete turn. The speeds that would result would give even Bode Miller cause to admire/fear you approaching!

A snowHead

JT, I don't think any of the professional ski teachers in this thread have said anything of the sort. I'm sure we all take your point, and in fact have basically agreed with you, but you did seem to be putting down carving somewhat as though it wasn't worth learning. I appreciate that you didn't mean it quite the way we all took you to.

rossi, Yes - but leaning out over the turning ski is desparately old fashioned nowadays. I agree it's not helpful except as a "fix". I know 2 skiers who can full-on carve on steep icy black, but definitely wouldn't recommend it to others - they're both world class (and can both also do it on snowboard as well).

BTW just today I had a young lady ski-ing with me who was absolutely terrified. Once she felt she could stop she was much better. She'd already skied for a week, and could turn, but felt out of control and was a wreck on the nursery slopes! So the good old snowplough wins again. Laughing

A snowHead

easiski,

Ok, misunderstandings all round, I didn't mean to demean carving
or imply it isn't worth learning, just that you should have it in your armoury
along with other turns and use them in the appropriate conditions you find on the hill.
And that people learning it should know there are plenty of uses for all the turn skills they have learned
along the way, not just carving, hence my opening line " why so hung up..etc"

I think it started with the snowplough and stem reference of mine. I know where I would be likely to use it, in what I call
a "don't f****** fall here" situation. And if I ever get to Le Grave later this season I expect to have to use one or two or more, ha! That's why I respect those turns, they have got me out of many a s**t situation.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

One of the best things to learn when skiing or boarding is that speed is good, and makes things easier. You should not be fighting against the mountain, but should aim to be going down in a controlled yet fast way. Snowploughing might over-emphasise the idea that you have to really slow down, thus leading to a flawed way of skiing later on?
However, on your first time out, it seems to me that snowploughs are kind of essential, otherwise you'll be bombing down the hill without the ability to control yourself- obviously dangerous.

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ponder, Interesting, but I wonder if you have significantly fewer piste users over your way. Here in France it really is essential to control your speed and trajectory due to the very crowded pistes. You are right that you shouldn't be fighting against the mountain, but you do need to be in control - the better you ski the faster you can go IN CONTROL. (Back on my hobby horse again - sorry). rolling eyes

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Hi easiski, agreed. I should have clarified that the leaning out thing is not something I would recommend.

On a seperate point, how do you get someone who has got into the habit of snowplough stop to stop doing this and stop with a turn-across the hill/hockey stop?

(Is that one too many 'stops'?)

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Hi Everyone,

You all seem like you know what your talking about, so I think this is a good place to ask...

I learnet with snowploughing and can now do a basic wedge-to-parallel turn and sometime when im not concentrating too hard, make a complete turn keeping the skiis parallel all the way through. However, as I havent been properly taught I dont know how I do it, it just seems to happen!

I understand how to do a snowplough turn and the mechanics of it, but could someone please describe the process of initiating a paralel turn and the mechanics of it.

Im also gonna try carving some turns - rolling the skiis onto their edges leading with the inside ski??

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

rossi, This is a difficult one, and it depends on how long they've been doing it. To do a proper stop you should have your skis parallel, bend your legs a little and push both heels down the hill. Get them to practise this from a traverse and then make the traverse progressively steeper. When they can comfotably do it to both sides, then you have to get them to find the appropriate keyword (could be anything they relate to), and they should shout it when they want to stop. I find this works. Of course doing the splits once or twice also works but ............

People mostly stop in plough because they haven't really learnt how to stop properly parallel. You could also do a series of turns coming to a halt each time (as the ultimate conclusion of a turn), this should also help.

freebie, It depends on how you understand the mechanics of the turn. Do you just open the skis and let them drift into the fall line? If so, you need to transfer your weight onto the new turning ski (the one on the outside of the corner) at the beginning of the turn, this will allow the skis to turn into the fall line parallel and then you finish the turn as before. You can (if you like) keep your weight of both skis when you want to turn (you will have been traversing with your weight on the downhill ski); extend your legs and stand on your toes when you do this. The skis will drift into the fall line, but it will take much longer to start than with a plough - be prepared to be patient. You may need to practice on very gentle slopes until you get used to it. I would not advise just trying to put them on their edges as the speed generated if you succeed is likely to be more than you can handle!

In point of fact the mechanics of the turn are the same - it's just a question of how much committment you make to the turning ski. The reason people get "stuck" in plough is normally just that they keep weight on the inside ski which then "drags" as they go round the corner.

I could go on about this for hours - so I'd better shut up now!

After all it is free

easiski, we have some fairly crowded pistes as well. Of course you need to be in control at all times, but you can be going fast and be in control. My point is that being to slow/cautious of a skier/boarder severely slows down your progression. Especially if you are working towards carving, it is important to learn to be comfortable and in control at high speeds. Snowploughs might somewhat lower a skier's comfort zone (speed-wise), meaning that it's going to take them longer to start carving. I always try to push myself, but have never hit anyone or anything on the hill.
Though I think in this case that you do need to learn to snowplough first, because you can't be in control in any other way on day one (as I stated in my post above). But you should push yourself out of snowploughs a.s.a.p.

easiski, I also like to teach them to stop by turning up-hill. In other words, instead of using so much snow-against-edge friction, use gravity by turning back up the hill. This can then be applied to speed control during the run: to slow down, turn uphill (instead of using a lot of muscle to brace against a skidding ski).

freebie, Bob Barnes, a member of the Ed Committee in the Rocky Mountain region of the PSIA likes to say, "Right tip right to go right." In fact, from this post at EpicSki.com on the mythical "perfect turn" and this thread on those turns illustrated, you can learn a lot about how the rolling of the feet creates and shapes the turn, allowing the skis to turn you instead of you turning the skis.

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