Dominance, Agression, Power and Fear

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

rob@rar, yep - I'm known for my nervousness on skis.... trying to make me aggressive makes it worse.... Instructors all swear that 1 Kafi Lutz totally changes my skiing... that small relaxation is a huge difference.... Since skiing with Fastman and Easiski I am improving on this front.... but I'd say otherwise I'd think about hypnotism to race!

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If we're talking about psychology, the single most important thing I did last season - and it was a conscious decision at the outset to do so - was to take the positive out of every day and forget the rest. I know all too well what I do badly, I don't need reminding, but by taking the positive out of even the worst days, even if it was only a single thing, every day became a good day and I began to start to believe I could do e.g. a bumpy icy black instead of just knowing it theoretically and bailing out.

Oh, and Baileys coffee Wink

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I think we're getting a bit off topic. I'm not arguing against the fact that to progress our skills we need to work hard, both physically and mentally. I'm asking if there is a point where it's acceptable to say "I'm here on the hill to just have fun and nothing else" and for those that take this route, not to be pilloried by those of us who spend the better part of the year frantically anticipating the first adrenalin rush of a snow covered hill that's steeper or rougher than anything we've experience before?

Do you anticipate that there will come a time when you will take the choice to stop pushing your limits and accept your limitations . . . or will you go down (literally in some cases) screaming?

Pleasure or pain . . . there's a difference?

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Masque, I think you're the one making spurious distinctions now. Some people's idea of fun is pushing their limits all the time, others' is pootling from one bar to the next. Most of us probably fall somewhere in between and/or have days of each. The key is there's no point doing any of it if it's not fun, especially when you're paying for the privilege.

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After all it is free

Masque,

Think there comes a time for many skiers when they cut back on the risks. (e.g. Didn't easiski saying she didn't do the steep bumps anymore?). I have some Austrian friends who aren't very fit but just appear to glide down the piste. Even gentle bumps and carving freshly prepared red runs at speed don't give them any problems. But they don't do extreme (e.g. steep off piste, steep cut-up slalom runs, black bumps etc). For them when it becomes a hard physical effort it isn't fun anymore. They have accepted their technical limits, have no real wish to improve/take risks and just have fun. It's a ski holiday not a competition for them. These are however the same people who have over the years had loads of fun laughing at my toilet seat skiing and often spraying me with snow after I've fallen over. For these reasons I try to drag them out of their comfort zone at every opportunity. Toofy Grin

For others it's no risk no fun like a fairground ride, the challenge, fear and achievement makes the fun. Other Austrian friends are buying proper second-hand race stock skis, race suits off ebay and then gate crashing slalom gate training (sometimes literally snowHead

). I've met quite a few older extreme skiers who are permanently injured. It could be argued that these people should of backed off sooner. It is still possible to improve technique without doing extreme terrain though and the better our technique, the longer we are likely to be able to ski. If it's not fun anymore then that's probably the time to pack it in, what makes it fun is down to the individual at that partucular time.

As a returnee to skiing after 32 years (used to ski 4 weeks a year for 7 years ) I found it was like riding a bike ...once you have done it you never forget...but with one proviso ...your muscles do!!! ...I persevered and am now back to skiing at the upper intermediate stage and am looking forward to this season ...I find that age is no barrier to being adventurous, I generally like to improve and am my own worst critic ...I don't see why if "he" can do it why can't I ...it is only a matter of learning how and this year I have become much fitter (6 days a week at the gym and dieting ) so the only thing I have to fear is fear itself.....and bad light! snowHead

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Masque,

I tried to make that point but it didn't get anywhere... I could have a cynical answer for that but... let it go.

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DB, good post. Actually I do still do bumps - steep or otherwise, if I have to. However I can no long attack those bumps. I can ski them gently and smoothly (most of the time) and can teach others how to do it but no longer really go for it. There will be a number of snowheads reading this who will remember the state I was in after the EOSB race 2 years ago. I can't race either (a great sadness for me), however I can (through good technique and lots of finesse) ski most of what any other skier can ski. That's the reality of age and the increasing long term injury list that inevitably pursues professional sports people. However this does not mean I can no longer improve my skiing, but my improvements will be subtle and not related to agression, fitness or strength.

I really think it's one of the great joys of skiing that almost anyone can do it, and can get the tremendous pleasure that we all know about. Older, fatter, disabled or whatever - it's possible, and the problem is that as long as so many people feel that you have to be fit, or strong, or sporty many people will be put off even trying.

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I totally agree ..I was never fit and have NEVER been sporty and have enjoyed skiing since I went to Souze in 1970

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

comprex, I suppose by definition if I'm consciously forgetting the bad stuff that leaves only the good stuff to remember.

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eng_ch, that was the first question of a series:

Q2 Of all the good memories within the days of a season, do you filter out the best days and best memories?

Q3 Are those good memories tied to a personal success? (this could be anything, first fully round turn, first powder turn without falling over, sensation of bump rhythm, all might be examples)

Q4 Do you -use- good memories of personal success to remember the motion cues of learned skills from season to season?

This is something I've asked about before, with FtS IIRC, in slightly different language. And, Masque I AM still on topic, the train of thought just has to loop around a bit instead of turning right angles.

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comprex,

Q2 not consciously but it's inevitable that some moments remain in the memory more clearly than others. Doing something successfully for the first time tends to stick in the memory but I don't consciously think, oh that went well I must remember this. I find in life in general, the memories that stick are often things I took for granted at the time and only appreciate properly in hindsight

Q3 not necessarily - can be tied to making a complete pig's ear of things if it ended up in peals of laughter

Q4 not specifically. I try to reproduce what I did right when it went well, but it can be rather hit and miss Wink

Actually an indicator for me that I'm progressing both mentally and technique-wise is that I can be much more laid back and laissez faire about it all - I'm gradually getting to the stage where I *don't* need to (über-)think about everything

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

eng_ch, fair enough.

Q4 was actually the important one for me as I am convinced that remembering instructional specifics -as such- from season to season is rather unpossible and unrewarding for most skiers.

So, a very-well remembered, intentionally remembered success might be a cue to remember the instructions or motions that went well.

Some time ago Fastman was speaking of chains of skills and exercises for them, that can be repeated every season to review or regain past skiing level.

I wanted to extend that slightly into chains of (intentionally and well remembered) success memories that the instructor might -help- you form.

A few thread pages ago I posted a link to a learning model including the idea of 'unconscious competence'.
http://www.businessballs.com/consciouscompetencelearningmodel.htm

This is how I read your last writing.

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I think unconscious competence is a good goal as to me it implies that skills are becoming second nature. When they get to that stage, are they likely to shrink again or is it a bit like riding a bike? I do have a short list of things to work on/practice/remember during this coming season precisely because they aren't second nature.

The problem with second nature (as opposed to unconscious competence) is that what is second nature may be "incorrect" to the extent that it holds you back from making progress - that's why one employs an instructor, though, isn't it? Success may be more luck than judgement and your contention that memorising the success will help maintain it and reduce instruction time and money in future is, I think, a red herring. As my old violin teacher used to say, if you practice your faults long enough you'll perfect them. What you did and memorised might be successful for that particular exercise but might be a hindrance when moving to the next level. A snowplough might be successful tool on a shallow slope but might hinder you if you tried to use it on a steep icy black (probably a very poor example)

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

eng_ch, the problem is that the zone of UC -shrinks- as we forget stuff and lose fitness. The comfort zone is the zone of UC.

Red herring? I think you're arguing my point:

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comprex, ah we're talking different things I think. You're talking about exercises - I'm talking about what those exercises/tools are used to achieve. I'm probably at fault there for using the word exercise but I was referring to the "exercise" of "skiing across that bit of powder to the next piste" for example.

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eng_ch, well noticed.

I was actually trying to talk about both, if that makes any sense?

A successful application of the exercise (Yay!) being used to remember the tools immediately preceding. That sounds rather obvious when put that way, no?

The new element was your intentional memory filter and whether an instructor might be able to work with that filter, enough to bridge the gap between seasons (and allow pleasurable reading of BZK because it associates with those successes, perhaps).

After all it is free

comprex, hmm bridging the gap between seasons... well I suppose it depends partly on how often you get to ski. In our case, we do enough days that by the time we get anywhere near an instructor we've had a chance to overcome the usual inter-season forgetfulness so by the time we get into lessons, it's dealing with stuff that is truly forgotten and needs straightening out or we're into progress rather than revision. For people who only ski once or twice a season, then there's an argument that lessons will accelerate the revision process sufficiently to allow for actual progress later in the week

My intentional memory filter is purely a day-to-day thing, almost an exercise (!) in NLP. You can talk yourself out of a negative mindset just as you can talk yourself into one. "Yes we can" if you like Wink

Take a world cup athlete - they aren't in the zone of UC surely? They are pushing on the boundaries of CC although their base level of UC may be far in excess of anything a mere mortal may ever attain.

I hate all the NLP stuff I have read though no doubt I'd be a "better" person all round (& better rewarded in career terms) if I actually bought into it. However I wouldn't be natural, cynical me wink

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fatbob, you think of the line you want to ski not how you want to do it

Late to the party here.

Aggression has it's place in skiing, but think of it in the line you take more than the physical effort you put into it. A skill lacking skier will ski a black and appear to be in a life and death fight with the mountain, using every once of strength in what looks like a frantically desperate struggle to survive. A well skilled skier will flow down that same slope with a look of complete control and relaxation.

Fear is a limiting factor, and it affects everyone differently. Some have a high tolerance, some don't. Some can guts through the fear,,, ski terrain that pushes their current ability thresholds further than others. That's cool,,,, but if you're of a nature that doesn't have those type of tolerance levels, fear not. You have an avenue to great skiing too. You don't have to push your fear limits to the point of pant wetting, you can work on the other side of the equation. Push your confidence levels. Building skills builds confidence. More difficult terrain can be worked up to and skied without having to perceive yourself as risking life and limb, because your perceptions of what is scary and intimidating will change. And when you get on the steep terrain you feared back in your lesser skilled days, you will flow down that slope with a grace that will put to shame the courageous hack.

Have faith my cautious friends. Great skiing within your grasp too.

You know it makes sense.

Welcome back.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A couple of thoughts:

About 6 years ago I was at my fattest and unfittest. I'd been under the cosh at work and just lost the exercise habit.

I went skiiing with a bunch of guys - none had skied as much as me but all were decent skiers/boarders who enjoyed off-piste, etc. Most of them were very fit (serious kayaker, mountain bikers, runners, etc). I thought I was going to struggle to stick with them.

We got great conditions - lovely powder - and I was amazed to find that at the end of each day I had more juice in the tank than the rest of them. I've got no racing background and I'm not an instructor but I have fairly solid technique. I think I was just a lot more efficient than them.

THe last few years I have done plenty of exercise. The guy I ski with most does very little exercise and we ski to a similar level. I do tire less quickly than him but his balance and technique allows him do ski pretty hard in his holidays with no conditioning at all.

Technique is clearly much more important that fitness.

I have always regarded myself as an aggressive skier. I tended to throw myself at bumps and steeps, to push myself to be very dynamic and positive. I fell much more than my lazy/skillful mate but took the attitude that if you are not falling, then you are not pushing yourself.

Last season, on the first morning of a holiday, I attacked a big steep icy mogul field with a little spindrift in the troughs. I managed to stick a ski tip in a dense patch of spindrift, popped out and fell down the hill, landing with my lower rib on the crest of an icy bump. Ouch. Cracked a rib, back spasms, etc. The doctor gave me lots of drugs and said I was safe to ski as long as the pain was manageable. So I skied and funnily enough I didn't fall for the rest of the week (unprecedented!). I was still skiing bumps, powder, steeps. What surprised me is how little I needed to "dial back" my skiing to avoid a fall. I'm thinking aggression may be overrated too. We'll see this season...

J

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comprex, I didn't read it like that at all - I understood "if one has skills one doesn't need fitness" to be the message throughout jedster,'s post. It does help learners because it helps them to understand that skill is what you need to acquire, and that isn't as hard as most people think, in addition you don't have to be fit/aggressive etc to acquire them! It is sad, however, that so many instructors still try to teach the 'whole' rather than the component skills. Sad

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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fatbob, Definitely. Laughing

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Bloomin eck, what a deep thread! I look at it like this:

The person who is skiing the best is the person having the most fun.

Its great to push the physical and mental limits and Im sure we all do this, regardless of our mental, physical or skill level, but at the end of the day isnt it all just for the fun?

The time to worry is when the fun takes a back seat or when the difference between a standard ski sock and one that is made for left or right feet are important!

Off topic-Having read 23 pages of peoples thoughts on inner ski tip lead and with close scrutiny of video stills of some very competant skiers I have come to the conclusion that the ski season is within reach and some snowheads are getting well and truly worked up. Its no good trying to analyse the ski styles of the top skiers and then say they have it wrong, they are better,,,end of.

What ever the sport, if the fun gets pushed aside it always ends in a negative process, with a return back to just doing the sport for the fun, until the demon sets in again.

If you partake in any sport within your physical ability you will always enjoy it far more when you push yourself every so often, to keep pushing will never be as much fun.

Small rant over Little Angel

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

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rob@rar, Ah young jedi Laughing

plateau,fustration,boredom. Strung together these are all negative words and thoughts that are linked with the desire to be far far better than you can realy be at this time. Someone who makes this comment or has this thought wants to "get there" quicker than they know they can hence the fustration.
The boredom comes from feeling as if you are finding it hard to progress from your plateau.

Plateaus are a very strange thing that we all face at some point. A plateau is a place where we are who we are and our skill,fitness,mental aptitude are at a peak. Its just that the peak lasts a long time untill it feels like a plateau. To go past this and step up another level always requires another 100% effort for just a 5-10% gain.
This path is not suitable for all especially if the joy, fun and happiness have gone.

Take me; I teach climbing and mountaineering etc, Im a slightly better than average climber, but Im not an outstanding natural climber and I never will be, but I have enough skill and strength to do climbs that challenge me and I have learned to accept my limits or I too will never be happy or have any more fun in my personal climbing/mountaineering.

Help!!

Dominance, Agression, Power and Fear

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