 Poster: A snowHead
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aviator, Obviously you weren't with me! Sorry you had a bad experience - which school did you go to? You could PM me if you like, and especially if you remember the name of the instructor. I often have to pass people on because I'm full so who not to recommend is often as helpful as who to.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| I have been told i am way too "input" focused and not enough "output" focussed. I should just find more challenging terrain and then challenge myself following better skiers. If i ski bad i crash, i ski well i survive... taking this approach I will improve more than performing drills. As a paying student I struggle with that concept as i would feel short changed |
I don't blame you for feeling short changed. Some bad outcomes that can come from the "sink or swim" approach. Different people have different fear thresholds. Scaring people to the point of muscle tension can be counterproductive to learning. Expecting good skills to be spontaneously born on difficult terrain is a tall order. Often the result is just the embedding of survival orientated crude, inefficient and limited technique. If people don't have the skills on the more gentle terrain, they most likely aren't going to spring to life of their own accord on the steeps.
Learn the skills on the easy slopes,,, refine them there,,, then take them into the steeps/bumps/off piste and continue the refinement process in structured manner, with the terrain intimidation factor monitored closely on an individual student basis. Refine a broad skill base on the steeps, just as you develop a broad base on the flats. Expand the comfort zone by expanding the skill base, then expanding the type of terrain where those skills can be well executed with confidence.
Success is not necessarily measured in the ability to simply get down a narly slope in some manner or another. Most any schlep with big enough stones can do that. Some gauge it by getting down that slope while exhibiting technical precision and skill versatility. Being able to employ a big skill base, and ski that difficult slope with total confidence, and in a variety of ways, limited only by the extent of the imagination.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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FastMan, "If people don't have the skills on the more gentle terrain, they most likely aren't going to spring to life of their own accord on the steeps. " Exactly - in all the 30+ years I've been doing this I've only ever come across one person who learnt better on a black slope than a green.
"Expand the comfort zone by expanding the skill base, then expanding the type of terrain where those skills can be well executed with confidence. " That's exactly it in a nutshell, but often students think that if they have a problem on a red run, we should take them to a red run to sort it out. It's up to us (ski teachers) to educate them that your phrase is the way forward. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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AFAICS from my limited experience teaching, and more extensive experience being taught, "follow me" is one of a raft of teaching techniques that works when used appropriately for the appropriate learning style, but is greatly over-used when compared to other techniques (verbal, kinesthetic), and used for groups who are too large and diverse in ability to have any real benefit. It works if it is being done for a purpose, and it has been used by some people who have taught me to good effect (e.g. to get me to go faster). I've also seen it work very well with some kids who seem to prefer learning visually, and for kids who don't speak English (we have had a few Polish speaking kids at the Snowdome). Setting a speed and line is sometimes helpful, but like people have said, provided that isn't the only thing you are doing. I think it is one technique that can be used sometimes, but unfortunately seems to be used way too much. I think once the group gets over 3 to 4 people it doesn't work for those further back.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I would have thought 'follow me' is a lot pupil dependant and what will work for a given individual. I experienced it this year for the first time in Switzerland on a one to one private lesson. The instructor was trying to coax me down that, then dreaded, cambered run that I've spoken about and was looking for decent non icy snow for me to turn on. He also watched me when he got a turn or two in front. Did I find it helpful? In a way - it was a bit like having the children on the slope with me, having something else to concentrate on rather than the fact that I was on skis and it was terrifying, kind of took my mind off what I was doing and I stopped thinking of me and the fear a bit. So yes, it worked for me, but only in the way described - it showed me a decent line and took my mind off 'me' which I think was the intent of the approach. It wasn't so useful for technique improvement.
However, that was in Feb this year. I now have VT under my belt, bring on next year............... 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I think follow-me is a lazy, lazy, approach for novices, but can be alright once someone is competent as it will force/encourage them to go faster, take a different line, make various and perhaps unnatural turn radii, and so on.
I've had "tuition" where I've taken a fall half-way down the run, and the "instructor" has carried on to the bottom before realising I'm no longer in their tracks. That's just a waste of my time and money, quite honestly.
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paulio, I think Megamum's post provides an example of why it can be be very useful for novices. So while I agree that it can be an easy option for the lazy instructor, it is most certainly a valid technique for all grades of skier when used in the right way.
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I think Megamum's post is a good example of how it was only inadvertently useful!
Agreed that as part of an armoury of tuition techniques - yes, fine. But I must say that every time I've received (i.e. paid for) a predominantly follow-me lesson, I've felt somewhat short-changed.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| paulio wrote: |
I think Megamum's post is a good example of how it was only inadvertently useful!
Agreed that as part of an armoury of tuition techniques - yes, fine. But I must say that every time I've received (i.e. paid for) a predominantly follow-me lesson, I've felt somewhat short-changed. |
If all you're getting in those lessons is a bit of guiding and the odd tip you're not getting short-changed, you're getting ripped-off. Find a different ski school would be my advice 
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Even worse in a group context with a line of a dozen wobbling snaking amateurs all making random turn widths!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| I have been told i am way too "input" focused and not enough "output" focussed. |
I'm sure he would say the same to me, but I can see what your trainer was getting at.
I've been pondering this for a while it seems to me that Instructor training sometimes results in "input" focused skiing because it's mostly "judged".
The big change comes with speed-test race training which is the exact opposite - a timed performance where the output counts. Instructors who don't have a racing background must find this change of mind set tricky because their previous training is all about being judged by Instructor Trainers for their qualifications.
I was encouraged when I heard that BASI had added 'Flow' to the assessment criteria. It seemed to me that they are trying to encourage more 'outputty' skiing - but a Trainer still has to make that judgement
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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When the instructor says "just follow me down this nice new run" you have reached the bottom before you realise that it is way, way, way outside your comfort zone. Sorted. Stop, and you're stuffed; alone; abandoned (of course, you're not, but that's another matter).
Imagine the alternative: just go down that slope and I'll follow you. "Down THERE? no way!"
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paulio, Why should the instructor ski too fast? Generally the point of 'follow me' is to help with line etc. no point if you leave the student miles behind (one or two turns are OK). All qualified instructors can ski very slowly, those who don't or won't are just lazy IMO.
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You know it makes sense.
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Yeah, that was my point really.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimottaret,
My regular instructors used it quite a lot with me and I rarely felt short changed.... then again I was having regular lessons and they had the luxury of time to mix it all up... Many drills, much feedback, plenty of travel, varied terrain...
PROS:
lets you think about 'just skiing' - not line selection, and if the instruction is "keep up" then also not speed
Can be a way to sneakily increase speed tolerance in wimps like me - just one run a day following but where speed increases slightly over time will greatly increase speed tolerance (ask Fastman he did it to me)
Good way to force you to try tighter turns than you prefer...(OK I'm a GS turn kinda girl I'm deciding - so I probably need this)
I find it very good to help me when skiing in 'tricky snow' - it forces me to keep skiing rather than keep stopping and analysing what feels wrong. Used this a lot skiing some extra nasty sticky stuff at end of season (red dust and warm temps - bad combo)... while figure eighting the instructor I had no time to over think the problems - had to keep cranking turns - also stopped me watching the patrol removing mangled bodies from the pistes(we were drawing off-piste tracks) - which would have done my head in...
Good when student hits 'mental overload' - too much thinking - just ski is good - being made to follow makes the just ski able to have a 'task' where outcomes can be measured... More recent lessons 'just ski' time was more often me to lead instructor - or meet them at a location(so I did not feel under pressure to ski a set speed etc)... This meant I could be assessed on 'tactics' as well as 'technical performance'...
CONS:
tends to work poorly if the follower does not understand that follow is usually meaning "in my tracks" not sort of same direction down the hill - especially true in groups... and more so most folks think "follow" is 2-3 turns or more back - which the guys and I find pretty useless... It is very important to define what sort of follow is needed for the purpose the instructor is using the run for...
Cannot be practised after lesson (this is what drills are very good at)... because you NEED the instructor
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
I've been pondering this for a while it seems to me that Instructor training sometimes results in "input" focused skiing because it's mostly "judged".
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david@mediacopy, I think your on target there.. My last two seasons have all been about passing courses, performing tasks/drills in a prescribed way. On the "fun training only" week i took i then get hit with I'm too input focussed and spent a lot of time doing follow me, rut lines and scary steeps which all were output focused and extended my comfort zone.
I (along with the trainer) got very frustrated as during video review I tended to focus on analysing my own skiing and making changes in body management and steering inputs. The trainers view was look at the overall picture and if you arent happy do more of the same in that terrain until you are happy with the outcomes.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, I think it is also phases you go through....
I've been through a few "just ski it" phases... and also some times when I get told that XXX is inhibiting YYY so get out there and do the work.......
Surely we all need to do both in reality.... so at certain points more of one or the other will be needed o reach the next goal...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've found that "follow me" can be highly useful but definately not something to be overdone. If I have kids and teenagers for several days who really just want to ski and have fun then making them follow me and hold my line can generate improvement without the need for anything that's going to make them loose interest. Varying speed, turn shape and mixing up different terrain allows them to get lots of miles in and improve without them even noticing until at the end of the week runs they were pushed on are skiied without any problems. However when it's used because the instructor cannot be bothered to teach anything it's a definate no no.
On a personal note I found it amazing for helping me improve my tree skiing. I was always a bit of a wimp in the trees when speed was concerned  whereas my brother would tear down unconcerned. I decided that i would try and keep within a ski length of him at all times following him and although it led to one amazing pile up and a close encounter with a (thankfully small) tree-well it allowed me to build the confidence to ski faster through the trees.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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This worked for me. I went to Andalo Italy for my 3rd skiing trip and that was the time I really learned to ski properly with parallel turns...the instructor said "looky, looky...follow me!!" and we followed and covered a lot of terrain at a reasonable speed including some easy off piste... I think his other tip was "bottom to the mountain!!" which was a useful reminder of being in the correct position when turning! I don't remember words of wisdom from any other instructor so I would say this technique worked for me!
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