 Poster: A snowHead
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skisimon, telemark turns....uhmmmmm very good. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| I personally like your idea of driving the outside hip around but others feel this can create a backseat position and too weak/lagging inner hip. |
If it was my comment you're alluding to there, then I'd like to clarify that it was the idea of driving the LEG around I wasn't convinced about
| GrahamN wrote: |
| "Driving the outside leg around" sounds a bit of a recipe for getting into the back seat to me.....So I think it would be better to be thinking about keeping a strong core/pelvis position, with CoM over and a bit in front of the ski, which drives the outside HIP (rather than leg) around, and following that through into a strong outside leg. |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Martin Bell wrote: |
Chasseur, thanks for the excerpt - I didn't know the etymology of the javelin turn. (By the way, Hart skis seem to be making a bit of a comeback over here.)
I'm not sure if the javelin turn is the best way to reduce tip lead though - on the contrary, in my view it seems to push the inside foot forward.
Reducing tip lead is closely related to engaging the little-toe edge, so personally I'd recommend those usual drills: one-ski skiing, Charleston, "cowboy turns" (exaggerated wide stance). Best done on skis with a lot of sidecut for quicker feedback - SL carvers or even Snowblades. |
No problem - had no idea either.
Help me out here. Sitting here at a 'puter and trying to now imagine a scenario may ensure I overlook somethiong vital but, if one traverses the piste in the javelin position, assuming I do this correctly, shouldn't one's outside hip be positioned in such a way that the inside hip would in turn push the inside ski/foot back were it connected with the piste?
Or, to put it another way, taking the positional lesson (angulation, balance etc) from the javelin exercise and applying it to the time spent carving across the piste between turns should reduce tip lead.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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GrahamN, it was yours and a few other comments that made me re think driving the outside leg. your idea of driving the hip around is definately sounder but i think i would struggle to clearly and effectively demo that. by focusing on outside tip or leg the student can do that themselves.
I also think that asking someone to drive their outer hip around may result in shoulder swinging if they are already struggling with seperation. worth a try though, i will give it a go soon...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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skimottaret, OK, have been out thinking about this this morning. At the risk of being far too simplistic, in a thread with lots of much more knowledgeable folk, what worked best was just picking up the TAIL of the inside ski on the turn (or actually on crossover, so just before the turn) and then keeping it there. Till the next crossover. It is actually impossible to pick up the tail of the ski if you have much in the way of tip lead on that ski. Or at least, I found it impossible. Leave the tip firmly on the snow.
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pam w, skiing on the outer foot with the inner skis tail raised is a great drill usually used to improve balance when skiers have their weight too far back. It is really hard to lift the tail of the ski up if you are sitting back.
using it to reduce tip lead could work as the skier is on the outside ski helping with their hip position as well as concentrating on the tip position, sounds good to me other than perhaps the act of lifting the knee may causes the inner hip to go forward. if you concentrate on skiing with the inner tail off the deck AND the tip pulled back i think that is a nice drill that can certainly help....
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| Quote: |
| perhaps the act of lifting the knee may causes the inner hip to go forward. |
I think this can happen if you raise the whole ski, but if you strongly raise just the tail, it actually pulls that inner hip back, if anything. I don't have skis and boots on at the moment, but just trying out in slippers, I don't think it would be physically possible to lift just the tail of the ski AND push that hip forwards. The tail lifting drill is what I always do first thing in the morning, if things don't seem to be falling into place.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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pam w,
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The tail lifting drill is what I always do first thing in the morning, if things don't seem to be falling into place.
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Absolutely. 
Sorry, I'll get my coat and drape it over my mind.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
little tiger, Your quoted post was bang on with regards to the hips. I personally like your idea of driving the outside hip around but others feel this can create a backseat position and too weak/lagging inner hip. |
There's something to be said for that, but if you will, allow me to put it into proper context.
Any movement of a body part forward tends to move the center of mass forward with it, so ending up in the back seat is really not a major concern when driving the outside hip forward through a turn. Even driving the inside hip forward serves to move the CM forward, and is a good means of helping a person who creates counter by dropping the outside hip back, which does result in the aft position you alluded to. The problem that CAN arise from driving the outside hip forward is that the more square position the skier is left in can create an impediment to higher edge angles and thus smaller radius turn shapes. But for the skier who is over countered at low edge angles, and getting scissored and inside because of it, getting into a more square stance is something that must be learnt, and adding counter as needed to facilitate bigger edge angles can then be reintroduced later.
At some point a skier needs to be able to recognise rotational state... (countered, rotated) and establish suitable rotational states.... Focusing on drills that draw awareness to the rotational states of the hips, and encourages developing the ability to manipulate those states at will is a good way to achieve those goals.
Surely teaching the student to fix THEIR problem should not be avoided because they may develop someone else's problem? The truth is, the problems we are talking of here are typically born of limited skill bases. As a skier learns to expand that base, these rudimentary problems tend to fade away.
As a person with a former problem with rotational awareness I'm all for learning hip awareness... Hips are handy when you ski!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Hurtle, 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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little tiger, well said, i agree (mostly) with your statements above.... (I have to mull over "any movement of body part tends to move CM forward though)
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Surely teaching the student to fix THEIR problem should not be avoided because they may develop someone else's problem
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some points were correctly raised in the other thread about treating symptoms as opposed to root causes, and, corrections potentially leading to other problems but i recon you have to start somewhere when attempting to help a skier in a typical 1 hour lesson...
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| skimottaret wrote: |
little tiger, well said, i agree (mostly) with your statements above.... (I have to mull over "any movement of body part tends to move CM forward though)
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As you mull it over,do so with this corrected quote....
| Quote: |
| Any movement of a body part forward tends to move the center of mass forward with it |
As long as the forward movement is done in isolation, and no compensatory movement is introduced, the concept generally holds true.
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You know it makes sense.
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little tiger, sorry musta misread your post, i would agree if we get any old chunk of mass forward the CoM goes foward as well
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FAQ
. Maybe think about driving the 
) shows that it's pretty essential for high edge angles, but square to the skis is a stronger position - but that's probably another thread.
