 Poster: A snowHead
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eng_ch, thanks. You have explained that better than my German teachers did. I'll leave time-manner-place for now, though! 
(PS - you only decline nouns. The equiv for verbs is conjugation)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| vetski wrote: |
| habe is only an auxiliary verb and anrufen is the main verb because that's what explains what I've been doing. |
Nope, the auxiliary verb is the main verb because it is declined to agree with the subject (ich (subject) habe (1st pers sing declension).
angerufen is a past participle and cannot stand on its own without the auxiliary verb (unless you're using it as an adjective, in which case you would have another main verb anyway) therefore it cannot be the main verb - the main verb has to be able to stand on its own
Since habe is the main verb it comes second in the sentence which then forces the rest of the compound verb (the past participle) to the end of the sentence
Since the main verb is the anchor and the pp then has to go to the end of the sentence, their positions are fixed and the rest of the sentence can fit round them as you wish in this instance:
Ich habe meinen Onkel angerufen
oder
Meinen Onkel habe ich angerufen
Once you have that basis/anchor points, you can worry about time manner place (if there were more info in the sentence) |
eng_ch, This is where I get lost, is there an idots guide to all this type of stuff?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Jumping into the thread a little bit, when I was learning German and was thinking about word order I found myself saying the sentance to myself like Yoda from Star Wars 
I was trying to learn it part time after work but felt the only way you can really become good is to speak it every day, if you've already got a base then 12 weeks immersing yourself in this course would be ideal.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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On the Michel Thomas CD set, I found it very useful as an introduction, especially as I didn't do any languages beyond age 14 and even then my previous education was in French. After a couple of trips to Austria in my 30s, I decided to give German a try. The CDs were an interesting experience as a starter - Michel Thomas uses an approach which worked for me, and I picked up the basics quickly without having to worry about any of the grammar rules I'd missed out on at school. The secondary verb at the end was explained well, and by the time I'd ploughed through the 8 hours of the set, I felt comfortable constructing sentences.
However, don't think that the CD set will make you capable of coping in Germany or Austria - it probably leaves you with a basic understanding of the sentence structure, and a vocabulary of about 300-400 words, so you are probably working at the equivalent level to a 2-3 year old. I found it very difficult to increase my vocabulary, especially as I'm busy at the best of times and not great at studying, plus my brain is lazy enough to keep reminding me that its all for 10-14 days per year in areas where most people ask you a question and then repeat it in English if you don't answer immediately. I'd love to be (more) fluent, but I doubt I could find the time and inspiration to do it unless I moved to Austria or Germany for a couple of years.
Michel Thomas also has a vocabulary builder CD set available, but since it has a structure where basically it has the word, it's translation, and a 5-7 word sentence giving an example of its use all in a 10-15 second chunk and then its on to the next word, my brain seizes up and I can't take any of it in. I actually learned more by browsing in a dictionary, and by reading online newspapers (like http://www.salzburger-fenster.at/) and forcing myself to look up the words I didn't understand. I'm still nowhere near comfortable in German, but at least I'm not completely clueless.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| pam w wrote: |
| dingdong, never done it, don't know anyone who has, but it looks terrific if you can afford it. And there's no guarantee of a toned butt anyway. |
Missed this earlier. I'm sure if you asked nicely at the skischool they will sort you out with an instructor fitting that description. 
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I have the Michel Thomas CDs (German, Spanish and French ones). Pretty good as an introduction, and it does get you from a complete novice to be able to speak simple sentences in a very short time. But if you don't stick at it and use what you have learned then it all evaporates and you have to start over. As ousekjarr says, there's not that much vocabulary either.
Problem I have is that our working language is English (and 2nd working language is French), so despite 5 years here in Germany, I still classify myself as a beginner that can get by. Found it much easier to learn Dutch when I was there, and half of that was from adverts on Discovery channel.
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DB, it's my butt I'm more bothered about.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| dingdong wrote: |
| eng_ch, This is where I get lost, is there an idots guide to all this type of stuff? |
What do you find to be the problem? The "meta-language" (i.e. the technical terms for the parts of speech etc.)? There is some basic terminology you need to know to learn any language properly e.g. what the various tenses are and do (past participle etc.), what a case is and so on. It sounds a bit daunting but it's no worse than knowing skiing terminology
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eng_ch, In a nutshell, thats it. It's 20 years since I've done any of that stuff and it seems to have been misplaced somewhere in my brain.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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dingdong, oh well I'm sure between us we can clarify that for you. How basic do you need it? i.e. are you OK with the concepts of noun, verb, adjective, adverb?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ich habe www.freetranslations.com benutzt, diesen sentance zu übersetzen! Hat mich durch Deutsch in der Schule erhalten.
I used to have the grammatical knowledge to change words and alter phrases. No longer.
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dingdong, do you know the 'Dummies' series? I think they're great and have several (Piano, Ballet, Skiing and Horse-riding!). There is an English Grammar for Dummies - that might be a place to start as a refresher? I like the fact they're written with humour, grammar needs some sugar to help it down (though I'm sad and I love grammar. And punctuation).
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You know it makes sense.
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| vetski wrote: |
| There is an English Grammar for Dummies |
I didn't know that - would be a good place to start I'd have thought. Once you know what the jargon is talking about in English, you can extrapolate to other languages. Although having said that, I learned all my English grammar (apart from parts of speech and some punctuation) from learning other languages
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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dingdong, if your brain is feeling rusty, that's all the more reason to get down to some serious learning. Use it, or lose it. If it's only 20 years since you did formal learning you're actually quite young..... much too young to give up.
You can soon get the feel of the way German sentences are constructed. I will my leg in the air put.
Go for it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Here we go, now we're talking! http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesTitle/German-For-Dummies.productCd-0764551957,subcat-LANGUAGE.html 
| eng_ch wrote: |
| dingdong, oh well I'm sure between us we can clarify that for you. How basic do you need it? i.e. are you OK with the concepts of noun, verb, adjective, adverb? |
Have these, I think..
Noun = Cat, Dog...
Verb = The dog ate the cat
Adjective = The dog chased the black cat.
Adverb = The cat waited patiently for the bird to land.
Ok who's going to mark my homework? God, it's going to be embarrassing if don't get this right !
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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pam w, You're dead right, Cheers! I will my brain start to use?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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eng_ch,
Prepositions = before, after, during, inside, outside
Pronoun = He, She, Me, You
Tenses = I painted the boat..
The last couple, erm....?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Weak/strong verbs:-
weak: to bake - present tense 'I bake a cake', past tense 'I baked a cake'.
strong: to break - present tense 'I break a glass', past tense 'I broke a vase'.
The difference is generally seen only in the past tenses - a weak verb does not change its radical, aka root. 'bak-' is the radical for 'to bake' - 'I bake', 'I baked', 'the cake is baking'. A strong verb does change its radical (hence aka irregular verbs) - so for 'to break', the radical 'break'- 'I break', 'the waves are breaking on the shore' changes to 'brok-' e.g. 'I broke', 'Morning has broken'.
Simple/compound verbs - a compound verb is where one uses 2 verb forms to express an action e.g. I was skiing, he is walking, we have eaten. In these examples an auxiliary verb (to have, to be) is being used with another verb form (skiing, walking - present participles; eaten - past participle).
[Edited because I decided one of my examples was not appropriate at this stage...its time will come!]
Next:
Direct object/indirect object?
Subject?
Clause?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| DB wrote: |
| Leo is only a single word translator, babelfish seems to be the only phrase translator on the net - for simple phrases it's better than nothing IMHO. |
I've been using the Translator addon for Firefox It give access to the following (I assume all whole webpage) translators
| Quote: |
* Google Translation
* Yahoo! Babelfish
* PROMT
* freetranslation.com
* Altavista
* Im translator |
I haven't looked at all of them but I imagine they'd all do a conversion from German to English. I'm not saying they're any good though .
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Our secretary is great, she's Austrian but learning English.
After booking a hotel for me she said "I become a hotel".
When trying to describe how significant my boss was she said "he is very impotent"
Of course I've dropped a few clangers
When trying to explain that I was bored
"Ich bin langweilig"
What trying to explain that I was hot in a crowded cinema just before the film started
"Ich bin warm"
German is very useful and I am sometimes able to help my English ski buddies. One asked a bootfitter to blow his boots out using the phrase (primed from me) "Kannst du mich blasen?" he had no idea what he had said but the bootfitters face was priceless.
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DB, I understand why 'Ich bin langweiling' is wrong - but what's correct?
[The first pun I ever understood in German, in the car park at Unterberg (have you been there? 30mins from Wiener Neustadt) was 'Langlauf kommt auf langweilig!]
Ich bin warm - should be Ich habe warm (cf French, e.g. j'ai faim)?
And how did the secretary get to 'become' a hotel? I can't think of an accurate phrase in German that could have produced that in English - wrong tense and why 'werden'?
Your mate's face if the bootfitter had done as requested...you're evil.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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vetski,
Yes did a ski tour on Unterberg this season.
Mir ist warm.
Ich habe ein Hotel bekommen.
Evil me? na it was just lost in the translation
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Ich bin langweilig is I am boring  I am bored is Ich langweile mich
Ich bin warm should be Mir ist warm. Ich bin warm means sth else entirely!
become a hotel presumably was bekommen?
BTW strong verbs in German do often change their stem in the present tense too e.g. ich esse, er isst.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| vetski wrote: |
| Simple/compound verbs - a compound verb is where one uses 2 verb forms to express an action e.g. I was skiing, he is walking, we have eaten. In these examples an auxiliary verb (to have, to be) is being used with another verb form (skiing, walking - present participles; eaten - past participle). |
Nice explanation. There are fashions in language jargon too and you will sometimes see the word "gerund" for "present participle"
| Quote: |
Next:
Direct object/indirect object?
Subject?
Clause? |
Subject is the person/thing doing the verb e.g. The dog bites the man - "the dog" is the subject
The direct object is the answer to the question "subject verb what?" The dog (subject) bites (verb) what? The dog bites the man - the man is the direct object
An indirect object is someone/thing to which something is done e.g. I write a letter to my friend - I (subject) write (verb) a letter (direct object) to my friend (indirect object)
[As an aside: as English has no cases, word order is critical to know who is doing what to whom - the dog bites the man is a very different prospect from the man bites the dog. The case system in German is used to indicate every word's role in the sentence so the word order is more flexible as a result - Der Hund bisst den Mann and Den Mann bisst der Hund mean exactly the same in German]
The easiest (not necessarily most accurate) way to describe a clause is as a phrase (module) in a sentence.
e.g. The sun, which came out later, made a huge difference to the conditions
"which came out later" is a separate clause
Next: specific tenses:
Present (English is slightly exceptional in having two forms of the present tense, the simple present and the present continuous)
Simple past
Perfect
Imperfect
Pluperfect
Future
Conditional
Future perfect
Conditional perfect
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Bit of light relief - one of the only jokes I know that translates exactly:
Mann 1: Mein Hund hat keine Nase
Mann 2: Wie riecht er denn?
Mann 1: Schrecklich!
(boom boom)
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You know it makes sense.
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eng_ch,
That joke is bad enough in English.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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eng_ch, those q's were for dingdong - he's going to be very happy you've done his homework...! Interesting listing of tenses, is that the order in which you learnt them? I can only list them in the way my Latin grammar book had them - indoctrination at a young age, clearly!
Gerund - it's a present participle in form, but its use is as a noun, not a verb. In Latin, they decline as nouns.
Clause: A clause MUST contain a verb, in any form. A main clause can stand alone e.g. 'I am eating some cake'. A subordinate clause refers to the text of the main clause, to the subject or to the objects.
1) I, feeling slightly peckish, am eating some cake - 'feeling slightly peckish' is the subordinate clause, referring to the subject 'I'
2) I am eating some cake, which I bought yesterday - 'which I bought yesterday' is the subordinate clause, referring to the direct object 'cake'. (It's also a relative clause, but that can wait!)
3) I gave a book to my sister, who is younger than me - 'who is younger than me' is the subordinate clause, referring to the indirect object 'to my sister' (it's another relative clause as well)
For extra credit, dingdong, can you identify what it is in 2) & 3) that makes the subordinate clauses relative clauses as well?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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vetski, oops
Actually I suppose it's the order we learned them in French. We had 3 years of French by the time we started German so we knew "what" we had to learn and only had to learn the forms so they rather came more or less simultaneously in German
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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eng_ch, he'll still find the info useful! I find it interesting that the tenses are taught in different orders. The order in Latin is Present, Future, Imperfect, Perfect, Future Perfect, Pluperfect (no conditional tenses), so that's the order I expect; it was also followed at school when I did French and Spanish. When I started learning German, though, the Future came after the past tenses, which I found really odd and confusing - I couldn't conjugate in the way I expected to. Ah well. What do you think we should torture dingdong with next?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| vetski wrote: |
| Ah well. What do you think we should torture dingdong with next? |
Have we covered the nominative, accusative, dative and genitive cases yet?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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We haven't named cases (don't want to scare him till he's confident he's back up to speed on English grammar), but we have mentioned subject, direct object and indirect object. That's another odd thing about German - that they put the genitive last. Latin and Greek have it after the accusative.
There are more pronouns, of course - reflexive, relative, possessive, interrogative, demonstrative...
Conditional sentences (stepping very lightly around modal verbs...I remember finding them a nasty surprise, though it was mainly because the set-up was different from other languages I'd studied)
Articles
Verb moods and voices
Imperatives
Conjunctions
What else?
If only English and German had the Ablative Absolute.
I guess he's at work, if not hiding under the duvet from all this grammar...he's going to love how this has carried on for him all day!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Blimey, this thread would put me off learning German, never mind the ski instructor part! dingdong, I don't know much about this course but I know people who have done similar. It's likely that you will be prepared for the Anwaerter exam, which is the first level of instructor qualification in Austria, which means you can get a job at any ski school, and will be able to teach adult and children at beginner level. To do the next stage of the qualifications you have to have worked some time as an instructor, so you won't do a higher level than this.
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nice, lol.. I know what you mean.
I come from a technical background so I can appreciate complexities of the language and I have nothing but respect for anyone who understands any of this stuff. I suppose we just take it for granted because we have been speaking it since we were little'uns.
It's probably a bit geeky but I am kind of enjoying this, but keep on hearing myself say, could you dumb it down a little! lol..
Thanks for the ski instructor info by the way, that's really helpful!
| Quote: |
| I guess he's at work, if not hiding under the duvet from all this grammar...he's going to love how this has carried on for him all day! |
Yep. I had a couple of things on this morning. I had a quick scan any time I had a chance.. Although the boss might be a bit worried as to why I'm learning how to speak English again!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| dingdong wrote: |
| Quote: |
| For extra credit, dingdong, can you identify what it is in 2) & 3) that makes the subordinate clauses relative clauses as well? |
Because you're using the relative pronouns, "which" and "who"? |
Ding dong indeed! Correct. I hope we don't put you off, but if you can get your head round the concepts in English you'll have massive head start when you relate it to learning another language
Vetski, I learned the cases in German in the order Nom, Acc, Gen, Dat, but I think the school kept them like that so that, having done 2 years of Latin by then, all we had to do was lose Abl at the end. I certainly learned my parrot-fashion declensions in that order.
DB, I think we need to make sure dingdong knows what articles are before we move onto cases - oder?
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dingdong,
Spot on. See, you do know this stuff...we're just sweeping round with a duster. I'm enjoying this too, I love linguistic structure and have always enjoyed the grammar bits whenever I've started a new language.
eng_ch, over to you for articles...I need a cup of tea, I've been working (yes, and foruming) pretty solidly the last few days to clear the decks before I go skiing again, still got this pm and tomorrow am to get through...believe me, grammar is light relief!
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FAQ
