How far would it be practical to go with BASI?

A snowHead

Kramer, Aww, shucks Embarassed

Unless you felt you were going to enjoy teaching (either in the UK or overseas) I think a better option for you would be to get stuck into gates training to sharpen up your piste performance plus all-terrain/backcountry courses to extend your off-piste terrain. You're already a very good all-round skier, so specialist training is the way forward I think. Phil Smith and his colleagues in Snoworks would be a good option (especially for gates work pre-season), although I'm sure that similar schools would also be suitable (Mountain Masters, Mark Jones and colleagues, might be a good bet for off-piste work). The advantage of instruction with those schools is that the instructors are closely involved with the development of BASI curriculum, so you will get a very thorough grounding in BASI theory which will stand you in good stead if you decide to go down that route. It certainly helped me a great deal. I've found the off-snow seminars with Snoworks to be one of the most useful things I've done for my skiing. Just food for thought.

My one firm bit of advice would be to decide and start planning for next season. I left a couple of seasons slide by while I was thinking about starting on the BASI route - I now wish I'd been a bit more decisive.

A snowHead

rob@rar,

You know you told me before that you did your L1 week long course with ICE in the beginning of Dec and you've recently completed your 2 week L2 course in Les Gets the other day......Well, how long did it take you to do the 70 hrs shadowing that you needed to do in those 3 months between December and March and where did you do that?

Was it at snowdomes/dry slopes or was some of it abroad with a ski school over there? I obviously know the shadowing took you 70 hours of time(!)-but-did you get it done on the weekends and evenings gradually or did you spend a few weeks in a resort and blasted it?

Thanks for the info snowHead

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VolklAttivaS5, it was a mixture - I did 24 hours in Courchevel (five mornings, plus a couple of afternoons), 20 hours in Les Arcs (spread over about eight days between Christmas and February), a couple of hours at Hemel Hempstead dryslope and about 30 hours at Milton Keynes snowdome (spread over about six days). I think most ski schools will only let you shadow if there are at least four or five clients in the group, so it's not always possible to shadow for more than four or five hours depending on what classes are booked that that day. It was quite time-consuming, and for a few weeks I thought I might struggle to reach 70 hours before my L2 course was due to start.

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rob@rar, thanks for that, yes I worked out that you must have been getting near to starting your L2!

So did you give Gareth a ring at Ski Supreme in Courchevel then for example and ask him if you could shadow for your L2 and did the same with the other ski schools?

Reason I ask about this, I'm just having a look at doing separates to see how that would work out for cost and time, just to compare really with the GAP I had mentioned on the other thread and to have a good look at all of my options.

The separates route must be far cheaper than £7000-8000 for the GAP courses. How much has it cost you (approx!) do you think including any flights, accomodation, lift passes and course fees from 0 to L2 if you don't mind me asking you?

It occurred to me last night that I'm going to Tignes for a fortnight in December anyway, and I could do the ICE L1 at the beginning of December by easily adding a week on (especially as accomodation is cheaper early season anyway) and see how I get on with that.

At least then, as you (or someone else said) on the other thread its just dipping a toe in the water then to see if the BASI route is for me or not, without committing a fair few grand into it and then finding its not for me as the case may be. Only thing is with the GAP is that I would have improved massively more over 10 weeks of being in a ski resort naturally than I will do doing the separate route. Then again I am accustomed to the BASI courses and have been on a few of those like you have suggested to Kramer so I can use more of said courses to improve my skiing and visit other ski resorts at the same time as per my quest to ski new places worldwide!

Seems to kill two birds that option then without committing to going the whole hog from the outset doesn't it.

Also-incidentally (and I think I know the answer to this) why did you choose to do your L1 in Val d'Isere when you could have nipped to the MK snowdome to do it? Presumably for less cost as well had you done it at MK? I would just prefer to do it on a proper mountain if that makes sense, especially if I'm in France at the time anyway, was that the case with you (and the fact that Mark etc are all very good at what they do)

Hope you don't mind me asking you lots of questions! It really helps.

Thanks

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VolklAttivaS5, I've known Gareth for a long time, same with John Thomas in the NewGen ski school in Les Arcs, so both were happy to let me shadow. I got in touch with Milton Keynes, and they too were happy to have me shadowing - I think that most instructors/ski schools will be happy to arrange shadowing if they can because they see that developing new instructors is an important part of their professional work. The only challenge was finding time when there were appropriate classes to shadow.

It's difficult to say how much I've spent on BASI stuff so far, not least because I own an apartment in Les Arcs and have used that as a base for all the stuff I've done in the Alps except for the L2 course. I can't separate what is 'BASI stuff' and what is 'holiday stuff'. Safe to say it's less than a gap course costs, but I've not had the amount of instruction that people on gap courses get.

I decided to do my L1 in Val d'Isere for two reasons: (1) I own a place within commuting distance so the cost of accommodation was already paid for, and (2) I wanted to have access to the full range of Alpine terrain for the course rather than be limited to a snowdome. It has always been my intention to head for an ISIA level qualification, so doing the first course on a mountain seemed to offer a better preparation for that.

BTW, if you are on a quest to ski new places worldwide you should think hard about whether a teaching qualification is the right option for you. A lot of my skiing this season has been on a small number of very gentle pistes snowploughing in front of or behind novice skiers. That's no really conducive to exploring lots of new places or skiing lots of new terrain.

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VolklAttivaS5, just a though regarding gap courses. Snoworks do a pre-season gap course in Tignes which I've seen at first hand. First class instruction and they aim to complete your L2 course by Christmas. I know at least a couple of people from this season's course who were teaching full-time in Verbier from January. Cost is about £6k I think.

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rob@rar,

Thanks for your replies, however I think you might have misunderstood what I was getting at re the BASI courses, I meant the Snoworks ones and the like, see below.

After all it is free

Kramer Devils advocate time... Why do it? IMHO the fun is off-piste and that doesn't seem to be a huge focus of most instructor qualifications?

Haven't most Quacks got enough pieces of paper unless you actually aim to instruct?

Or is it that a 62 year-old beat you through the gates at the MSB when he was on fat skis and you were on race skis? wink

stoatsbrother, very true re where the fun is. I love all of it, on piste and off.

Incidentally I wonder how much time ski instructors get off during your average ski week to have a blast around off piste or on in their free time? Probably not a lot I would say certainly in high season weeks. What are your reasons for considering it Kramer out of interest? Is it the ski improvement for yourself you would get out of doing the courses or is ski teaching something that you think you might fancy doing and would like to live in the mountains doing that in the winter season whilst doing your usual occupation outside of the season? (I take it you are a doctor from stoatsbrother's last post?

BTW have you been on any intensive ski tuition courses like the Snoworks ones that rob@rar suggested in his earlier post?

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VolklAttivaS5, Do you have a dryslope nearby ? You can get some shadowing done there (can't remember if it would count towards BASI)....

stoatsbrother,

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ski, If the training is done by BASI Trainers on a recreational course for example like the ones I've done with Inspired to Ski, do you think that someone's skiing would improve more if the training is done by the same BASI Trainers say on an instructor course? I suppose they are honing the skills even more on the instructor course aren't they so that you are able give demonstrations properly and things. Of course in addition you'd have to go on several recreational courses in a row really wouldn't you to get it to be the same time and intensity as an instructor course. What do you reckon? The quality of the tuition and the trainers might be the same in both of my examples with respect to the qualifications held by the Trainers but the intensity is much higher on the instructor courses and also as you say, the candidates would be trying harder as well.

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VolklAttivaS5, it's not the quality of the training, it's the attitude they expect you to take. On a course aimed at recreational skiers you will be treated as a guest on holiday. On a BASI course you will be treated as a professional undergoing training and will be b***** if you turn up late / messy / smelling of alcohol etc. You could argue that a professional approach to learning may lead to faster progression, but it is probably down to the individual.

Incidentally, we spent plenty of time off piste, steeps, bumps etc during my Foundation and Instructor courses (as they were then). However, it was a good group and we nailed the Central Theme pretty swiftly. The other group had a couple of people who were struggling to perfect the snowpolough, and also would have struggled with some of the off piste we skied, and they spent most of their time on the nursery slopes. We spent most of the second week of the Instructor course putting in zip lines and synchronised skiing!

You know it makes sense.

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VolklAttivaS5, I think you get a bit more 'focus' on a BASI course. Everyone will have much more specific goal, than on a public course, and it's likely that everyone will be of a similar standard. On the other hand you'll spend time and money doing things that aren't that useful if you don't want to teach.

Of course you need a trainer that you can communicate effectively with, (and that's a two way process), and it's possible for this not to happen on each type of course.

I get a lot out of both types of course, but when there is an assesment at the end (and an assesment that matters to you), you do tend to work harder, and will arrive at the course (if it's a pass or fail ) in the best shape you can manage.

I think the trick (BASI or not) - is to have some goals you are happy with, and will commit to working toward - which means not just taking courses, but doing a bit of practise, trying other new things (tele, snowboard, snowblade),reading a few books (especially those by John Shedden), and 'owning' your progress. This is easier to do in the context of BASI - 'cos you have some levels to grade yourself against, racing also gives you feedback on how well (or not) you are doing.

What can happen, down the BASI route, is that you forget what skiing is about - all the noise about Central Theme, Plough Parrallels, posture etc gets in the way. I ski 'cos it's fun. That's the only reason to do it.

A snowHead

A snowHead

I'm just interested that's all. And it's something to talk about.

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rob@rar,

Never happened to me rolling eyes

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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Very interesting thread. I almost went down the route to being a ski instructor in my late teens back in the mid 80s. Took a few simple BASI training courses etc but then went to uni and got distracted with a career. Aged 40 I'm now just an experienced recreational skier, but always looking to improve my technique. I was thinking about low level instructor courses too, but having read this thread it's probably not the sort of training I'm really looking for. I have no intention of becoming a pro ski instructor, I just want to have fun and improve my own skills along the way. So I'm now thinking more along the lines of public courses eg. Phil Smith or Warren Smith Academy. I'd like the training to be pretty focused and technical with a bias toward off-piste, but fun and with zero emphasis on developing teaching skills. Can anyone recommend any such courses? I'd be looking more at weekend breaks rather than longer courses.

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uktrailmonster, Phil Smith, Sally Chapman, Warren Smith. All good. Also racing/coaching at your local atrificial slope will get you going in the right direction.

After all it is free

Elizabeth B, Anwarter is surely useful at Wengen... Ercole smiled very clearly when I told him i was going to do it. It will also get me better pay next year ....

It cannot be that much though as http://www.snowsportsacademy.nl/ 'runs' this as a 1 week course with the 1 week NSL preparation (dutch/belgium National Ski Instructor) from barely parallel on red runs (or so they say on their website)

Still... the next step up from Anwarter is Landes, which is quite good...

Ronald, it's about time you got 'qualified'... wink

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eng_ch, I suspect that's probably quite accurate, especially in Europe where there are lots of 6 day courses.

I've been told that in Whistler the average is about five days a week, sometimes less. Although you'd probably be looking at doing training on at least one of the days off (although at least that would be at your own skiing limit, rather than a beginner's limit - though we've all been there at some point).

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beanie1,

You know it makes sense.

uktrailmonster, I can highly recommend www.alpinecoaching.co.uk Pete Silver-Gillespie is superb. Very Happy

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A snowHead

Didn't happen when I did my CSIA I. I was about 15 minutes late one morning. I just tagged on the end once I'd caught up with them (helped that I knew where they'd be), made my apology and was greeted with a bit of a joke about having a heavy night (probably right given that trip...).

Of course, I love that military cr@p, having said that, pseudo-military cr@p is just done by people who weren't quite good enough for the real military... wink

A snowHead

skisimon, in the military, it's very appropriate and has it's place.

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

They have to have certain standards in place or it would end up being a shambles probably. I think the requirement for not being late is fair enough, for people to have the necessary kit and clothing for the day is fair enough and personally I wouldn't want to smell booze on someone all day...I wouldn't expect the instructor to stink of booze so why should the candidates? Besides if someone's got a hangover then they probably won't be concentrating as much as they would be if they didn't have a hangover lets be honest. I think that's what the point was. It doesn't have to be run in a military fashion, and people shouldn't be treated brashly at all, but it is important to have standards that people are expected to adhere to. Same with going on any course, exam related, work related or otherwise, certain things are expected from people, of course.

By the way what was the b word that beanie1 wrote, I missed that in my previous post. I just took she meant that the things I described above were expectations of being on a professional course. On both of the recreational/public courses I went on we were expected not to be late and everybody would be ready etc etc but I just thought that was general courtesy really.

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Hmmm. I thought that was a little OTT too. I can understand it being a requirement whilst instructing - i.e. being professional in appearance when dealing with the public. But during a course you aren't dealing with the public. (Of course, on-hill training in uniform is a gray area - by being in uniform one should be professional in appearance as those skiing by will still see you as a representative of your school or organisation).

Sometimes people are given roles with responsibilities over others and, through personality or lack of training, they don't do it in an appropriate manner. The old nazi approach to teaching is still occassionally prevelent in some situations - some people still need to get some perspective on what matters and what doesn't, and indeed the manner in which they manage people - even in the military senior ranks treat their subordinates as humans.

After all it is free

What's wrong with expecting a professional (or aspiring professional) to act professionally? After all, instructors are their own advertisement. What individuals do in their own time in their own clothes is up to them, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to act professionally when in uniform. I don't think the EOSB counts as it's a very different situation from your ordinary ski instruction scenario, it's more a group of friends getting together, some of whom happen to teach skiing for their living. In a more usual scenario where there's an individual or ski school operating in a competitive market, professionalism (of which image is a part) affects reputation - so why shouldn't students get into the habit of professionalism from the outset?

Kramer, So you've changed your mind, you do mind if your Instructor turns up late.

If a Trainee is working with me, I make them ski with their Jacket done up for 2 reasons, first it looks more professional and second it's harder for pupils to observe their posture and movements on their demos, if their Jacket is flapping in the breeze.

What they do in their own time, I couldn't give a stuff.

It's the Trainee's choice when they turn up, what they look like and what they smell like, as long as they don't expect to pass the course, that's fine.

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How far would it be practical to go with BASI?

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