 Poster: A snowHead
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magic_hat, it's hard to see from the T&C which you quote how the TO imagines that it can levy a currency surcharge on you. It presumably didn't notify ABTA of its intention to levy such a surcharge because it doesn't levy it, according to its T&C.
Who is the TO? If you've mentioned its name, I've missed it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The is one sided even with the T&C..I would bet if the pound strengthened then they would just argue the fuel when up and the price did not change by 2%..
It’s the same as the banks when the interest rate falls they cut the deposit rate immediately the mortgage rate sometimes. When it rises they increase the mortgage rate immediately and increase the deposit rate sometimes..
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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magic_hat, This is starting to look a serious issue for the TO - rightly so as they seem to be operating disgracefully...
Well done for pulling them up on it. I wonder how many of your fellow 'punters' have already paid up?
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| alex_heney wrote: |
Nor if the amount of the increase is less than 2% (so in your case, they cannot charge an extra £32 unless your package price is less than £640).
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Um, is your maths correct?
£32 is 2% of £1600. |
Oops. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| magic_hat wrote: |
katski, The price was in £s and i paid the last instalment in December 2007. That was us all paid up... or so i thought....
red 27, Sort of yes. After trying every method conceivable of contacting the company concerned (phonecalls, emails to every address i could find etc), I contacted ABTA. I started to try and explain my point about the T&Cs and he stopped me and said "before we get into the wording of T&Cs, let me check something with out legal team".
Basically it appears that if a company wants to charge a surcharge to its customers, it has to get permission to do so from Abta. This involves serving a notice of intent to surcharge or something. Only once this has been approved can the surcharge be invoiced to customers. My company has not requested this permission and has not served its notice of intent to charge.
I've had to forward all my details to ABTA and they are looking into it for me.
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It looks rather likely that they can't do it then 
| Quote: |
alex_heney, The T&Cs for my holiday are:
Once the price of your chosen holiday has been confirmed, then, subject to the correction of omissions or errors, we will only increase the price in the following circumstances: changes in our costs resulting from transportation costs e.g. fuel, scheduled airfares and any other airline surcharges which are part of the contract between airlines (and their agents) and the tour operator, and government (including foreign) action such as increases in VAT or any other governement imposed increases. This increase will cover any changes in our costs in excess of those taken into account in the aviation insurance/security supplement charged at the time of booking.
Mine differ from katski's in that there is no mention of refunds as well as surcharges and no mention at all of currency fluctuation as a possible reason for a surcharge. |
In that case, even if they had notified ABTA, those Terms would be unenforceable according to the law.
Overall, I don't think they have a foot to stand on, never mind a leg 
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| red 27 wrote: |
magic_hat, This is starting to look a serious issue for the TO - rightly so as they seem to be operating disgracefully...
Well done for pulling them up on it. I wonder how many of your fellow 'punters' have already paid up? |
That, of course, is exactly what they rely on.
Punters who don't know their rights, and will just pay up like good little sheep. 
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An update... this is all getting rather messy...
This is the situation as it now stands...
I bought my holiday over the phone from company A. Company A email me the details including a password and pin to log into their website to make payments and view my holiday details etc. I conduct all my business with company A, paying through their website, calling them with queries and adding in a couple of extra bits and pieces to my holiday.
When i get the surcharge notification, i log back in and see the £259 added in to my account and showing as outstanding. Underneath my balance outstanding is a link that says "Click here for the terms and conditions". If i click the link i get the T&Cs that i cut and pasted above.
I contact ABTA and it now transpires that even though I have only ever dealt with Company A, they are acting as a travel agent for a Company B who are not registered with ABTA. Even though my booking is with Company A, I am not covered by ABTA protection so they have walked away. My issue with this is that if the travel agent you booked with is ABTA protected then surely that is all that counts, but apparently not.
So, I decide to take up the issue of the T&C wordings with Company A and pursue the fact that the T&Cs make no mention of a downwards revision or of a currency surcharge being applied...
I log on to the Company A website to get the phone numbers and to have the wording on my screen for when i phone up and guess what... the sneaky little so and so's have changed their T&Cs! The ones on there now are totally different to the ones on there this morning!
They now read:
(i) Once the price of your chosen holiday has been confirmed, then, subject to the correction of omissions or errors, we will only increase the price in the following circumstances: changes in our costs resulting from transportation costs e.g. fuel, scheduled airfares and any other airline surcharges which are part of the contract between airlines (and their agents) and the tour operators alternatives arrangements from us if we are able to do so and compensation as described. Please note that travel arrangements are not always purchased in local currency and some apparent changes have no impact on the price of your travel due to contractual and other protection in place. (iv) The price quoted on the Final Invoice is guaranteed, unless you change your booking. Any increase in our costs which occur after the Final Invoice has been sent will be borne by us. In exchange for this promise to you and the risk to us, we will not make any refunds, nor reduce any increases in other costs by any credit, for favourable cost movements.
No idea what has happened to sections ii and iii as they seem to be missing! Still no mention of a decrease in prices, but a completely different set of words that does now include something about the holiday being purchased in a different currency but doesn't say anything about applying currency fluctuation surcharges!
What a cuffuffle. With ABTA pulling out I don't really know where to go next - it's not the kind of thing you can pursue on your own so i guess they have won the battle!
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magic_hat, name and shame company A and company B!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
| he price quoted on the Final Invoice is guaranteed, unless you change your booking. Any increase in our costs which occur after the Final Invoice has been sent will be borne by us. In exchange for this promise to you and the risk to us, we will not make any refunds, nor reduce any increases in other costs by any credit, for favourable cost movements |
Seems clear enough to me.
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But wait. Isn't company A registered with ABTA? Is it allowed to change the T&C AFTER you booked?
Granted, I don't suppose you have a print out of the old version of T&C to show it's been changed...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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magic_hat, ABTA is only your travel agent's professional organisation, your tour op will not be with ABTA because they are a tour operator . It's just like going to Hays Travel and bookng a Thomson Holiday.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Helen Beaumont wrote: |
| Quote: |
| he price quoted on the Final Invoice is guaranteed, unless you change your booking. Any increase in our costs which occur after the Final Invoice has been sent will be borne by us. In exchange for this promise to you and the risk to us, we will not make any refunds, nor reduce any increases in other costs by any credit, for favourable cost movements |
Seems clear enough to me. |
"The Final Invoice" is what they call the final contact you have from them to tell you that your account is all clear and your tickets are going to be on their way. It's normally sent out with about a month to go... if they are going to charge you a surcharge, it is on the final invoice that they do it.
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| magic_hat, name and shame company A and company B! |
Company A (took my money and my booking and changed their t&cs) are Igluski.
Company B (not ABTA registered) are Ski Activity.
| abc wrote: |
But wait. Isn't company A registered with ABTA? Is it allowed to change the T&C AFTER you booked?
Granted, I don't suppose you have a print out of the old version of T&C to show it's been changed... |
I would imagine you are not allowed to change T&Cs after someone has booked, and yes I do have a printed out copy of the previous ones (thank goodness) - it's just i'm not sure what to do with them! Am planning on calling them tomorrow and seeing if i can get to speak to someone that isn't just a call centre rep.
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| Helen Beaumont wrote: |
| magic_hat, ABTA is only your travel agent's professional organisation, your tour op will not be with ABTA because they are a tour operator . It's just like going to Hays Travel and bookng a Thomson Holiday. |
So in reality the fact that my travel agent (Igluski) are registered with ABTA means nothing as it gives me no protection whatsoever !
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You know it makes sense.
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magic_hat, not as far as the price of your holiday is concerned, because your holiday is not with Igluski it is with Ski Activity, it is Ski Activity's terms and conditions that apply to your holiday price. Igluski is simply an agent for the tour operator, and as such just acts as a middleman, passing on any invoices and costs to the customer. However, as I am not either a travel agent or even a tour operator, I am not an expert on this. I assume then that your final invoice is what is showing the extra cost.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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magic_hat, There has been much written on this site about the role of agents and ABTA which is just wrong ... the agent has many duties (including informing you of their role in the transaction etc) .. I'd be amazed if Igluski got that wrong. I'll have a look at the whole tomorrow night if you like as I've only skim-read. Initial reaction is your case ( if any) lies with Ski Activity but lots to check before that.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| magic_hat wrote: |
...
I log on to the Company A website to get the phone numbers and to have the wording on my screen for when i phone up and guess what... the sneaky little so and so's have changed their T&Cs! The ones on there now are totally different to the ones on there this morning!
They now read:
(i) Once the price of your chosen holiday has been confirmed, then, subject to the correction of omissions or errors, we will only increase the price in the following circumstances: changes in our costs resulting from transportation costs e.g. fuel, scheduled airfares and any other airline surcharges which are part of the contract between airlines (and their agents) and the tour operators alternatives arrangements from us if we are able to do so and compensation as described. Please note that travel arrangements are not always purchased in local currency and some apparent changes have no impact on the price of your travel due to contractual and other protection in place. (iv) The price quoted on the Final Invoice is guaranteed, unless you change your booking. Any increase in our costs which occur after the Final Invoice has been sent will be borne by us. In exchange for this promise to you and the risk to us, we will not make any refunds, nor reduce any increases in other costs by any credit, for favourable cost movements.
No idea what has happened to sections ii and iii as they seem to be missing! Still no mention of a decrease in prices, but a completely different set of words that does now include something about the holiday being purchased in a different currency but doesn't say anything about applying currency fluctuation surcharges!
What a cuffuffle. With ABTA pulling out I don't really know where to go next - it's not the kind of thing you can pursue on your own so i guess they have won the battle! |
It most certainly is the type of thing you can pursue on your own.
I would save a copy of the above page, in addition to the previous one you have already saved.
There is zero posisbility they can lawfully charge you a surcharge based on either of those two sets of T&C.
You write to them, pointing this out, and telling them you expect them to provide the contracted service at the contracted price. And that the T&c as shown are not valid in law, so cannot be enforced.
If they refuse to send you the tickets without you paying, then take them to court for a refund when you return. Make it VERy clear when you pay that you are doing so under protest, and will be reclaiming the unlwfully demanded money.
It is even possible they would be committing a criminal offence if they did that (extortion), although that is not totally clear cut.
It will be a small claim (and they will be relying on you just deciding it isn't worth the hasle), which will cost very little, and the fee will be added to the claim. The chances are they won't even defend it, since they will know that they would have no case at all.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 20-02-08 12:37; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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magic_hat, I'm no legal eagle, but the Ski Activity website has a logo for the 'Travel Trust Association', and if you go to their website at www.traveltrust.co.uk and click on consumer, there is a section for complaints, where it says it will help and intervene if necessary in disputes.
Might be useful if you don't get anywhere with the company??
D
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I organise my own groups to ski with (ie 3 x 6 holidays) and only charge the others for what I have to pay for - at the time I pay it. This does lay me open to someone cancelling and leaving me with a hole in the finances for things that will have to be payed for with fewer people - but I rely on them being nice (ie feeling sufficiently guilty). Not sure if their insurance would pay for something they haven't payed yet (?)
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magic_hat, I think you also need to go back to the original Package Holiday Regulations that state that no surcharge can be added within 30 days of your holiday which should apply to you regardless of whether or not there is any mention of currency fluctuation in the terms and conditions. I would also speak to the Travel Trust and see if they can advise you at all. It may also be worth speaking to Ski Activity directly as it may well be that if you start questioning it they might decide that actually £32 per person is not worth arguing over and might just waive the surcharge? (you never know!). I'm very suprised at Iglu too - I was under the impression that if you purchased your holiday through an agent your contract is with the agent themselves rather than with the tour operator hence the need for the agent to be ABTA protected rather than the TO. If nothing else it certainly should be something that Iglu are prepared to take up with Ski Activity on your behalf.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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A well placed mention of Trading Standards probably won't do you any harm. They would be up for having a look into an issue like this - mucking about with costs after a booking is made is something they are very hot on.
As a TO I am hugely hacked off with the slide of the pound against the euro (and I don't think the extent of the fall could have been predicted) but shafting clients is not the way ahead! That said there will be firms out there who simply cannot absorb the added costs and survive - particularly on top of a poor 2006/07 season. Not suggesting that anyone mentioned here is in that position though.
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ctskifam, shafted clients are unhappy clients, and unlikely to rebook.
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Helen Beaumont, my thoughts entirely.
I do suspect that some cases of surcharges are being prompted by a survival instinct rather than greed though.
My own T&Cs are pretty clear "Once your booking has been confirmed we will guarantee not to surcharge any existing booked arrangements". No plans to change it, just hope Messrs Darling and Brown manage to sort the economy out. That's a slightly bigger debate though...
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Looks as though TOs will have to quote in Euros for the Euro element of the cost, give an equivalent in sterling, but point out that final cost will be that prevailing at the time of payment; I can't see any other fair way. Straight quotes in sterling obviously will have to have a very hefty hedging factor, otherwise TOs may fold.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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achilles, not sure that's going to happen. They'll be too scared that the apparent lack of clarity in the pricing will hit booking levels (I know I would be). Prices on the surface probably won't change much but arm yourself with a magnifying glass for the small print and "optional" add-ons.
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More over, not all the prices are in Euro, the flight cost for example.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ctskifam, you could be right. It's how DIYers already have to price their holidays, though.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ctskifam, No disrespect , but having stayed with 'you' a couple of times . Are you ABTA, ATOL or 'Couldn't Care' ?? If not what 'protection' do you give to your customers in the unfortunate ( and it can happen to even the best) of you going bust? Who would the OP go to if you decided to charge a surcharge ?
Being a 'niche'/premium supplier gives a bit more leeway in terms of margin. No ?
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You know it makes sense.
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| abc wrote: |
| More over, not all the prices are in Euro, the flight cost for example. |
| achilles wrote: |
| Looks as though TOs will have to quote in Euros for the Euro element of the cost |
Bearing in mind that many holiday-makers already cope with that when they DIY, maybe some could cope with TO's producing split pricing - in sterling and the relevant overseas currency, sometime in the future.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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My apartment prices are quoted in euros, no-one seems to have a problem with it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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An update...
Thanks to everyone above who has posted advice, information etc etc, it is all much appreciated.
I called Igluski again who told me that they had received all my emails and had forwarded them on to Ski Activity (and apologised for never getting back in touch with me). They basically said that my issue is with Ski Activity and that unless I either pay the surcharge or Ski Activity inform them to remove it from my account, they will not release the tickets. They cannot help me pursue it and will not get involved.
I asked them about the T&Cs on their website and how they mysteriously changed the other day - no answer.
Couldn't get through to Ski Activity today, tried a few times. Will call tomorrow when i am not having a total nightmare with other things in work! Am going to try and speak to someone "high up" and try everything mentioned above (TTA, Trading Standards, Wording in the contract etc etc etc) and if that fails, I'm going to follow the advice of ALEX_HENEY above and go down the legal route.
Mystic Meg prediction.... Either Ski Activity can't/won't give me the number or put me through to anyone important or they distance themselves completely from the "Ski Activity Terms and Conditions" on the Igluski website try and dismiss them as irrelevant.
I feel desperately sorry for the independent chalet owners etc who have lost out because of this, it never really occurred to me before that things like the value of the pound could affect people this badly!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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magic_hat, fortunately, I have been protected to some extent by charging in euros, others won't be so fortunate.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Agenterre, we operate a trust whereby all money paid to us for a holiday goes into an account we can't touch until after a client has returned from their holiday. We can't spend it or borrow against it - in the eyes of the law it's the client's money until the product/service has been delivered.
If we went bust prior to an individual's holiday the money would be sitting in that account. In theory anyone providing a "package" needs to either operate a trust account or hold a bond. Some "couldn't care" or don't think this legislation covers their kind of operation; not a route I'd go down.
If I decided to ignore my T&Cs and charge a surcharge (which I wouldn't) then Trading Standards would be the obvious port of call. Package Travel Regs apply to anyone selling a package regardless of whether or not they are ABTA members or hold an ATOL licence - as do more normal laws governing consumer protection.
... and the size (or otherwise) of the margins might surprise you. Not all done purely for love but it has to play a part!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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magic_hat, this is completely out of order. I would try to pull out and look on independent chalet sites for suitable alternatives. There are plenty of last minute deals as long as you are flexible. Also i cant believe that a large company like iglu, which has won many awards for its website and relies on its reputation, is distancing itself form you problem. Surely they must take some responsibility for what they do? If their prices cant be trusted they will loose customers. Also by selling Ski Activity holidays they support that company and the way it deals with its customers, not to mention changing its terms and conditions after you paid up!!?? Disgraceful.
If all else fails trash their name on this board. Start a thread with screwed by iglu ski in the title, or something like that and i am sure you will get their attention. It has worked on 2 previous occasions, when aggrieved snowheads finally got taken seriously when companies and individuals names got dragged through the mud on a public forum. Good luck and keep us posted. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I don't have any sympathy for tour ops who are finding themselves getting stung by currency fluctuations - it is dead easy to protect yourself from these. Helen Beaumont, is doing it in a very simple and transparent way by just stating costs in Euros
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Arno wrote: |
| I don't have any sympathy for tour ops who are finding themselves getting stung by currency fluctuations - it is dead easy to protect yourself from these. Helen Beaumont, is doing it in a very simple and transparent way by just stating costs in Euros |
Tour Operators aren't getting stung, they will have agreed a price with the Hotels, chalets etc well before publishing there brochures. Like any other Major business who deals in Europe they will have bought/agreed an exchange rate with banks, currency dealers at the same time. It is the private companies who run small chalets for about 14 people who are getting stung. These people may have the same people coming back year after year, they will probably not operate in this way and will be not be able to put up there prices after taking a booking for fear of losing good will.
For sure you are going to see prices in € probably from next year from the privateer's, but I doubt tour ops will do this.
Historically the € as fluctuated by around €0.03 from €1.45 (i.e 1.42 - 1.48 ) which they can take on the chin either way but not €0.17 in the wrong direction and if economist are to be believed there is still a way to go yet.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 21-02-08 9:51; edited 2 times in total
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One of the most interesting threads I've read in a long time. I am sorry to hear of this situation, apalling behaviour by Ski Activity (must admit had never heard of them but I'll make sure that all my friends and aquaintances do !) and particularly Iglu who I thought usually served the UK ski market well.
As a regular trip organiser (groups of up to 20) I know what you must be going through. Even if you do get the surcharge dropped then your holiday will be scarred from this, you don't have the normal build up to a holiday which for many is just as exciting as being there ! I hope you get a satisfactory resolution. Maybe taking Alex's advice of paying up but under protest and with the threat of subsequent legal action will allow you to stop stressing about this and get on with the holiday that you've looked forward to. If you get the money back treat it as a bonus. Would you have paid "original price + £32" for your holiday when you booked it ? If so, I would pay it now (under much duress and with gritted teeth) and start looking forward to what, despite this, is sure to be a fab holiday !!
| magic_hat wrote: |
I feel desperately sorry for the independent chalet owners etc who have lost out because of this, it never really occurred to me before that things like the value of the pound could affect people this badly! |
Must disagree though, had the currency gone the other way I don't think there would be many chalet owners out there offering refunds. David Trax has it right. Some you win some you lose. Counts for both chalet owner and client.
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masmith, on your closing point a 9% drop cannot be viewed as part of the normal ebb and flow of the currency markets. Had it gone the other way you are almost certainly right to say that you wouldn't have got a refund - but I would bet that with most single chalet operators and small independents you would have seen much of the "windfall" re-invested in staff and properties the following season.
I'll bow out of this one now but going back the original point I think magic_hat has a very strong case. Just a shame that it looks like he's going to be made to work to prove it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think at this stage your best course of action would be as Alex and masmith say, pay up, but clearly state on sending the payment, that you will be pursuing a refund through court as this surcharge contravenes the package holiday regulations and is unlawful.
At this point I'm not sure you will get very far by threatening 'if you don't do this I'll do that', as they seem to be burying their heads in the sand, just state clearly what you WILL be doing.
Having said that, maybe if you draw their attention to the regulations now, they might drop it??
Either way, it's apalling behaviour though (on their part, not yours  ).
Let us know how you get on if there are any updates.
D
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| masmith wrote: |
| One of the most interesting threads I've read in a long time. I am sorry to hear of this situation, apalling behaviour by Ski Activity ........... |
I don't see it as appalling; a 10% swing in the currency market could wipe them out, for all we know. From what I understand, TO margins are so tight that they could run each holiday at a loss if they don't pass the surcharge on. What they are doing may possibly be in breach of the Package Holiday Regulations (though we are only getting magic_hat's side of the story, and I am always wary of Trial By Snowheads) but it is very understandable.
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FAQ
