 Poster: A snowHead
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May be we should ask the pro-helmet camp to see if there is any SH selling them for a living, involved in their manufacture or processing related insurance claims.
According to ise's figure there was only 5% of injuries involving more than one party whereas 95% injuries were self-inflicted (for Switzerland) thus the helmet is really for protecting the skier/boarder against his/her own mistakes!
So why call others mad?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| saikee wrote: |
May be we should ask the pro-helmet camp to see if there is any SH selling them for a living, involved in their manufacture or processing related insurance claims.
According to ise's figure there was only 5% of injuries involving more than one party whereas 95% injuries were self-inflicted (for Switzerland) thus the helmet is really for protecting the skier/boarder against his/her own mistakes!
So why call others mad? |
Since the cause of the 95% of accidents wasn't categorized, at least in my post, it's entirely unsupported by the data to use that figure as an argument either for or against wearing a helmet or any particular safety measure.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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ise,
I know but in the 95% one cannot use the argument that the helmet could be for against injury introduced by another skier because there was nobody else involved.
If the helmet is useful it could only be reduce the injury but not to prevent it from happening.
Your figure if authentic is only be for Switzerland. France's figure if available should be higher because there are more skiers per piste. Wearing a helmet would be sensible move if one goes to Meribel when the French schools are having their mid term breaks. The best testing ground could be standing at the middle of a Meribel Mottaret slope just before reaching the bottom lift stations at 4pm.
To me equating one's experience in a busy resort to the rest of the skiing world is inappropriate.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Kel,
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ban the ipod from the piste
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you'll find other threads on this topic. (  )
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I have to say however that I find it ironic when I see the ipod wires coming from the helmets of these safety conscious skiers/snowboarders ( ) being able to hear what is going on is far more important than protecting your noggin
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Totally agree!
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I say ban the ipod from the piste
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Again, not the solution...People's choice....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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A few days ago my boarder mate had his gf nick the back of his helmet with a ski tip after he suddenly flipped backwards. Judging by the cut he would have required quite a few stitches for a scalp laceration if he hadn't been wearing it.
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| Scarpa wrote: |
| A few days ago my boarder mate had his gf nick the back of his helmet with a ski tip after he suddenly flipped backwards. Judging by the cut he would have required quite a few stitches for a scalp laceration if he hadn't been wearing it. |
They are obviously in love but maybe they should not ski/board down so close to each other...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Kruisler, I agree, like driving a car too close to make evaisive action if required. It is the skiers responsibility to look after him/herself, not any one persons position to dictate to any one of us. Their opinon on wearing helmets are valid but only their opinon, and possibly any one  's view is not the same as anothers views, this applies to sport, resorts, politics and everything in between. We all have different opinions on all sort of subjects, long may this continue.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Roy Hockley wrote: |
| ............ We all have different opinions on all sort of subjects, long may this continue. |
Let a hundred flowers bloom, let a hundred schools of thought contend. 
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My friend, who is a boarder with helmet + iPod reckons that anyone overtaking on his blind side should be giving way to him and therefore shouldn't cause him a problem. I do hope he's right! Perhaps this may be an instance where wearing a helmet might actually cause a problem, if he's wrong?
I don't think I'm good enough to ski without knowing/hearing what's going on around me. Shame, because I'd love to use my MP3 player skiing. 
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You know it makes sense.
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mdemon2, Wearing a helmet is commendable, skiing using a mp3 is reckless and potentially more dangerous than not wearing a helmet!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| mdemon2 wrote: |
| My friend, who is a boarder with helmet + iPod reckons that anyone overtaking on his blind side should be giving way to him and therefore shouldn't cause him a problem. |
I agree with your friend but would bring the quote down to: "anyone overtaking should be giving way"
If a skier/boarder is overtaking you , he is at one point uphill from you and therefore he/she is the one that has to avoid you/make sure there is plenty of space between you and them...
In pratice, and it really got to me this year as a beginner boarder, people cut right across your path about a foot in front of your skis/board... and the slopes weren't even crowded 
As a skier I have always made sure I was giving others "plenty of air to breathe"...
And all of that would be why I would not listen to music on the slopes even if on my own, because I don't trust others and need to hear them coming...
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Poster: A snowHead
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People who listen to ipod on the move is not giving 100% attention to skiing/boarding. He/she can argue the reduced attention is good enough in his/her case. Of couse some will be right but skiers/boarders with less experience and skill may copy the same and they could introduce risk to themselves and other piste users.
If people accept wearing a helemt can be safer why can't they drop the ipod while on the move?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Roy Hockley wrote: |
| mdemon2, Wearing a helmet is commendable, skiing using a mp3 is reckless and potentially more dangerous than not wearing a helmet! |
I'd be pretty curious if anyone has been involved in an incident where using an MP3 has been a contributing factor? I've never heard one.
On the other hand, anyone complacent enough to believe they can identify and localize the sound of an oncoming skier or 'boarder with enough time to react is someone I'd prefer not to share the slope with personally.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ise wrote: |
| I'd be pretty curious if anyone has been involved in an incident where using an MP3 has been a contributing factor? I've never heard one. |
That'd be because you've got your earphones in then  .
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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ise,
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I'd be pretty curious if anyone has been involved in an incident where using an MP3 has been a contributing factor? I've never heard one.
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Maybe that's 'cos your MP3 is turned up too loud !!! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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GrahamN, you beat me to it . . . . . i didn't hear you comming !
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| ise wrote: |
On the other hand, anyone complacent enough to believe they can identify and localize the sound of an oncoming skier or 'boarder with enough time to react is someone I'd prefer not to share the slope with personally. |
I've heard the telltale scraping of an incoming snowboarder dozens of times. I listen out for them particularly when skiing slow or stopping. It's not that hard to work out where they are and how far away. Hearing is certainly a useful function to have out on the slopes, so I wouldn't give it up.
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| ise wrote: |
Anyway, the fact is that people get worked up about non-existent risks, post after post here over years trot out the same silly old rubbish, convinced that they're perfectly safe and they're only at risk from the reckless actions of other people and yet the only figures I can find tell us that 19 out 20 accidents actually involve just one person, not an out of control skier/boarder/blader (select misinformed prejudice of choice) wearing an ipod just the one person without any outside help at all. |
Statistics hey
The only accidents my wife has had skiing, have ALL involved some feckless out of control idiot crashing into her. I can think of 3 or 4 notable incidents over the last few years. With considerably more experience, I tend to avoid them easier, but I've still had several unfortunate clashes with other skiers/boarders over the years and countless near misses. I've also had a couple of my very own crashes, but perhaps due to my experience, those have been very rare. So my personal statistics (which are what matters to me) don't really fit yours.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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uktrailmonster, Very true, However I think ise, is with us in saying that hearing that a skier/boarder is too close is so important in PREVENTING an accident from behind. Like most I believe that it is irresponsible to have one of your senses diluted by noises in your ear!!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| ise wrote: |
Not my statistics, I've never had an accident personally and only one near miss ever. The numbers I quoted were from the "Swiss Council for Accident Prevention".
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You seem to believe them though. Which again is your perogative. They're still irrelevant to my own experiences, which are totally different.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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looks like we are all in total agreement then 
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You know it makes sense.
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ise, yes to your question about accidents involving mp3 players. A pretty nasty high speed collision between two boarders at Kirkwood, saw that it was going to happen from the chair quite a bit before it did happen. They absolutely smashed into each other at full tilt from opposing directions. It transpired that they both were wearing helmets, both were listening to MP3 players inside their lids and neither knew a thing about it. Both were stretcher cases.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| ise wrote: |
Not my statistics, I've never had an accident personally and only one near miss ever. The numbers I quoted were from the "Swiss Council for Accident Prevention".
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You seem to believe them though. Which again is your perogative. They're still irrelevant to my own experiences, which are totally different. |
huh? you're suggesting that our "Swiss Council for Accident Prevention" can't count or something? It's not a test of faith, either the figures are correct or they aren't.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| ise wrote: |
huh? you're suggesting that our "Swiss Council for Accident Prevention" can't count or something? It's not a test of faith, either the figures are correct or they aren't. |
I know enough about statistics to know that they are rarely clear. You have to know exactly what context they're taken in. But as I said, I have enough personal experience (about 25 years of skiing) to draw my own conclusions about what kind of accident I AM most likely to have. The number of collisions I've witnessed first hand compared to the number of single accidents is nowhere near your quoted 1 in 20 ratio. It's more like the other way round. I'm not arguing with the statistics, just pointing out that they're not relevant to my own situation.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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uktrailmonster,
Your own statistics of accidents appears to be from other piste users crashing into you and your wife.
Thus the risk could be lower if there are fewer piste users on the slope. You can control this if you
do not go skiing at peak holiday periods
avoid popular resorts known to have big crowds in some countries
stay away from the slopes that have more mis-judged skiers/boarders like the blue runs. Skiers on the red and black runs tend to be able to avoid you better.
ise's quoted data is based in Swiss resorts and could be representative of that country. It is quite possible that it is safer to ski in ski in that country as you will meet a lot less beginners there., May they can't afford it, may be there are no green slopes, may they are too many red runs, may be Swiss are more careful with each other etc. etc.etc.
My point is if we look at our own statistics and others together may there is a way within our control that we can lower our own risk.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| saikee wrote: |
uktrailmonster,
Your own statistics of accidents appears to be from other piste users crashing into you and your wife.
Thus the risk could be lower if there are fewer piste users on the slope. You can control this if you
do not go skiing at peak holiday periods
avoid popular resorts known to have big crowds in some countries
stay away from the slopes that have more mis-judged skiers/boarders like the blue runs. Skiers on the red and black runs tend to be able to avoid you better.
ise's quoted data is based in Swiss resorts and could be representative of that country. It is quite possible that it is safer to ski in ski in that country as you will meet a lot less beginners there., May they can't afford it, may be there are no green slopes, may they are too many red runs, may be Swiss are more careful with each other etc. etc.etc.
My point is if we look at our own statistics and others together may there is a way within our control that we can lower our own risk. |
I agree. Unfortunately we do often have to ski at peak periods. But we make an effort to keep away from crowded resorts. All the collisions my wife has had have been on easy blue runs, when she was an early intermediate herself. In all but one case, she was hit from behind by out of control teenage boarders. At least 3 times in the last 5 years. One of them managed to hit me this year while I was standing right at the edge of the piste. Luckily I saw him coming and managed to mitigate the accident in my favour I've collided with 2 other skiers in the last couple of years. One was an out of control skier who slammed into the side of me coming into a ski lift. The other was a skier I was overtaking on a narrow traverse. I actually went off the side of the piste to give her tons of room, but the unfortunate woman decided to suddenly turn 90 degrees and head off the piste without bothering to look at the exact moment I was passing. A bit of a freak one that, but it can happen. I've had dozens of near misses, particularly with crap boarders on intermediate runs. As you say, on more advanced runs it's generally less of an issue. Oh yeah and I've witnessed loads of other collisions where we have not been directly involved.
It sounds to me like Swiss skiers fall over a lot by themselves!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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uktrailmonster, let me know where you ski, and I will stay way from there. You and your wife do seem very collision prone. I am an experienced skier - well over 50 weeks. What you are describing does not match my experience at all - but I almost never ski in school holidays. And at LDA I consider, and sometimes take, the option of taking a lift down rather that be subject to home-run mayhem at the end of the day - so maybe my experience is not fully representative of the average. However, if I had to endure what you describe, I would give up skiing - I can't see the pleasure in it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
I'd be pretty curious if anyone has been involved in an incident where using an MP3 has been a contributing factor?
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Ise, as other have said, you missed the point...It's not that listening to music make someone more dangerous, it's that listening to music impairs your ability to hear trouble coming and react to avoid it.
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anyone complacent enough to believe they can identify and localize the sound of an oncoming skier or 'boarder with enough time to react is someone I'd prefer not to share the slope with personally.
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Not too sure what to make of this one! In my nearly 30 years of skiing/boarding, I can safely say that many a times I have altered my line because I could hear someone skiing/boarding coming from uphill, looked up and decided that they were going to be too close to me for comfort...In most cases, no point arguing with the skier/boarder(although I do occasionally utter some choice words), so I just alter my line, keep safe distance with them and all is ok..otherwise everybody gets too close and you end up in the same sort of incidents as mdemon2 friends. I am in no way complacent!
I'd go as far as saying that if you think that your hearing sense does not make any contribution to your safety then you are indeed the complacent one..
If someone wants to listen to music on the slopes... it's their choice, as per the whole helmet thing, as it is only their safety (IMV) that is at risks... I have no issues with it
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uktrailmonster,
| Quote: |
| It sounds to me like Swiss skiers fall over a lot by themselves! |
I am sure ise will come down like a ton of brick on me for using the Swiss statistics but in a nutshell the data suggests 95% accidents involving one party and the remaining 5% involving more than one party.
If you drive in Switzerland minor roads you will notice the Swiss are one of the most law abiding people in Europe. I happen to believe their skiers are also more careful with each other than those in the South of the Alps.
We have been skiing about 9 to 10 years and done 17 trips. The wife got hit once in the early days and I haven't had an accident yet. Like achilles we control it by going to the slopes with less skiers by selective with the holiday time, countries we visit, resort's popularity and finally by avoiding the blue slopes or busy bottlenecks. Given a choice between a black and a blue run to a point of our interest we would choose the black every time as long as it is groomed.
We are not good skiers fond of skiing on the black runs but it is true that we choose them for avoiding being hit and over the years we have learned to cope with them. We did feel when we first managed to ski the red runs and so able to stay away from the crowdy blue our chance of being hit was drastically lowered and could concentrate more on learning to ski.
It is possible that once you are at liberty to avoid the crowdy blue slopes your chance of being hit by other piste users may change.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 13-02-08 11:27; edited 1 time in total
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| ise wrote: |
On the other hand, anyone complacent enough to believe they can identify and localize the sound of an oncoming skier or 'boarder with enough time to react is someone I'd prefer not to share the slope with personally. |
How on earth cabn you come out with that ridiculous comment?
There is ZERO possibility that anybody who believes that being able to hear improves their chance of avoiding collisions is "complacemt".
And to suggest that anybody who believes that is somehow or other more dangerous than those who don't (which is the clear implication of your saying you would prefer not to share a slope with them) is so ridiculous that I really can't comprehend how it could be possible to come to that conclusion.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ise wrote: |
| my question "I'd be pretty curious if anyone has been involved in an incident where using an MP3 has been a contributing factor? |
I have had to take avoiding action when skiing down parallel with a (techically very good) skier who was listening to an MP3 player. I was taking a regular, predictable line down the slope and she was taking a wide, randomly varying line which frequently encroached on mine. She was completely unaware of my presence. It's arguable that it would have made little difference if she could have heard me, but I'm convinced that if she'd been paying less attention to the music and more to her surroundings she would have been much less dangerous. If I'd been skiing in the same way as her, and not altered my line several times there would have been a nasty accident.
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| achilles wrote: |
| uktrailmonster, let me know where you ski, and I will stay way from there. You and your wife do seem very collision prone. I am an experienced skier - well over 50 weeks. What you are describing does not match my experience at all - but I almost never ski in school holidays. And at LDA I consider, and sometimes take, the option of taking a lift down rather that be subject to home-run mayhem at the end of the day - so maybe my experience is not fully representative of the average. However, if I had to endure what you describe, I would give up skiing - I can't see the pleasure in it. |
So you've never had any kind of crash or collision at all during your 50 weeks? Surely you must have had some near misses? The vast majority of time I have no problems either. As a beginner/early intermediate my wife had a few annoying experiences with idiots as described, but those days are long behind her now. We ski quite a lot - usually 4-5 weeks a year, so you have to consider that against number of potential incidents. I've skied 100+ weeks in total and certainly don't consider myself "collision prone" as you put it. Yes I tend to ski quite fast, but stay well in control and always give people room. But those times when the pistes are busy, the lack of control many people ski with is quite appalling. As we are often forced to ski at peak times, it's one of the reasons we never ski the large French resorts anymore. Perhaps if I had to endure all those incidents in a single day I might consider packing it in, but thankfully the reality is not so dramatic!
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FAQ
) but I fail to see why helmets were made mandatory. I suppose it was seen as a way of reducing NHS costs - and so is a consequence of having a state-run medical system.
