FastMan, I thought that counter-rotation came from the waist, rather than rotating the hips into the turn?
Counter and counter-rotation are not the same AFAIK
OK, someone will have to explain the difference to me in that case?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar wrote:
I thought that ILE was something much more complicated than it has been described by Fastman. Anyone who carves a turn does it (inside leg is flexed, then extends as it becomes the outside leg), and I think focusing on ILE is simply a way of getting on the new edge early in the turn. That's a good thing, certainly for me, but ILE is not quite as groundbreaking as I thought it might be.
Yes, rob@rar, it is pretty simple. But you should have seen the stink the concept raised when I first explained it to the folks on Epicski a few years back. I was new to the forum, and the resident pros were very disapproving of the idea of making an extension of the old inside leg the move that could/should initiate a transition. Eventually they came to understand the attributes of it, and you now see ILE spoke about frequently over there.
The difference in it, as to what most people do when carving, is found in that first move. Some relax the old outside leg (the OLR description comprex requested), some retract, some even extend off the old outside leg, or both legs,,, but few do a pure ILE. The sensation when done properly is very distinct.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
FastMan wrote:
The difference in it, as to what most people do when carving, is found in that first move. Some relax the old outside leg (the OLR description comprex requested), some retract, some even extend off the old outside leg, or both legs,,, but few do a pure ILE. The sensation when done properly is very distinct.
I can really see it as a great mental trigger, but the same comment I made to LT: don't lots of things all happen at the same time? Inner leg extends, outer leg flexes, centre of mass moves across the skis, etc. If these things don't happen at the same time you move out of dynamic balance.
little tiger, does it really happen first? If you extend the inner leg without moving your centre of mass and without flexing your outer leg all at the same time surely you are going to be out of dynamic balance?
YES.... that imbalance is what gets you tipping downhill ... it is a smalll extension required to start... from there you can start to flex the other leg and continue the extension and the rate at which you do these controls the rate at which you transition.... but that imbalance on a supinated foot which has heel ahead of hips is what makes it all so superbly simple and so connected and why it works so well.... everything else will sort of happen....
I still remember my instructor(aussie but a canadian race coach) trying to get me to do it .... but he was describing all the flexion and extension that I cannot feel... in the end he left my "homework" as being playing with extending that uphill(old inside) leg WITHOUT standing up onto it.... and "seeing what happened"....
As soon as I read Fastman's ILE post I recognised what I was missing (i kept freaking as I started to fall and failed to continue to extend).... Once I had the picture the rest started to fall into place very quickly
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rob@rar wrote:
FastMan, I thought that counter-rotation came from the waist, rather than rotating the hips into the turn?
Hmmmm,,, if you rotate the the waist and don't involve the pelvis, counter is derived from a twisting of the spine. If counter originates in the pelvis, the entire upperbody can come along and remained aligned. Keeping aligned provides a stronger position, and affords a larger range of angulation capability.
abc, thank you for reading my description so carefully
Enjoy reading your description. For a subject that doesn't lent itself to words, you write very clearly.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rob@rar wrote:
little tiger wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
FastMan, I thought that counter-rotation came from the waist, rather than rotating the hips into the turn?
Counter and counter-rotation are not the same AFAIK
OK, someone will have to explain the difference to me in that case?
I never learnt counter-rotation.... so I'll leave that to someone else....
Counter - body not aligned with skis... Usually facing just outside the turn... helps to keep your balance over the outside ski edge and the outside foot pronated (help please Fastman - I forget exactly how)
After all it is free
After all it is free
little tiger wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
I thought that ILE was something much more complicated than it has been described by Fastman. Anyone who carves a turn does it (inside leg is flexed, then extends as it becomes the outside leg), and I think focusing on ILE is simply a way of getting on the new edge early in the turn. That's a good thing, certainly for me, but ILE is not quite as groundbreaking as I thought it might be.
It is what you move first that is important... even in Outside Leg Relaxation transition you have to extend that inside leg sometime.... the difference is which moves first... and so how much "float" versus "connectedness" you will feel.... It is the transistion that is different....
Using both ILE and OLR transitions at some point in the turn the old inside leg must extend and the old outside must retract... else you would look really weird.... So both involve eng_ch's "pedalling" at some point in the turn... the transition though is a different animal in each...
rob@rar, this response of Little Tiger's, is spot on. And her answer about the balance question is too. Creating a state of imbalance IS THE GOAL of ILE. It's that state of imbalance which causes the body to move across the skis, and into the new turn. By doing this, we're harnessing the external forces acting on us, and using them to do our bidding. Let the forces do the work, and we don't have to.
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Oh rob@rar, check out the canadian video.... IIRC the Nyberg one you can see the ILE quite nicely... both extension and inside hip drive
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
FastMan wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
FastMan, I thought that counter-rotation came from the waist, rather than rotating the hips into the turn?
Hmmmm,,, if you rotate the the waist and don't involve the pelvis, counter is derived from a twisting of the spine. If counter originates in the pelvis, the entire upperbody can come along and remained aligned. Keeping aligned provides a stronger position, and affords a larger range of angulation capability.
OK, is there a danger of dropping the pelvis into the turn (and rotating it) too far? This has been pointed out to me on several occasions, including once here on snowHeads, and has the opposite effect to what all this ILE or OLR business is trying to achieve: large, early edge angles.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
BTW - you all are typing faster than I can read I think!!!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
FastMan wrote:
rob@rar, this response of Little Tiger's, is spot on. And her answer about the balance question is too. Creating a state of imbalance IS THE GOAL of ILE. It's that state of imbalance which causes the body to move across the skis, and into the new turn. By doing this, we're harnessing the external forces acting on us, and using them to do our bidding. Let the forces do the work, and we don't have to.
I appreciate that you are trying the get the skier to topple early onto his new edges, but surely that acts within a situation of dynamic balance? If you're so far out of balance don't you fall over?? I'm sure I'm not the only one who has fallen inside because I've toppled too far, too quickly. Please tell me I'm not the only one.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
little tiger wrote:
Counter - body not aligned with skis... Usually facing just outside the turn... helps to keep your balance over the outside ski edge and the outside foot pronated (help please Fastman - I forget exactly how)
Pretty good, Little Tiger.
Basically the difference is, according to commonly understood definitions over here: COUNTER is a position in which the skis and body face/point in different directions,,, and COUNTER ROTATION is a means of manually turning the skis via an aggressive body movement.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
FastMan wrote:
Basically the difference is, according to commonly understood definitions over here: COUNTER is a position in which the skis and body face/point in different directions,,, and COUNTER ROTATION is a means of manually turning the skis via an aggressive body movement.
Ah, thanks. I was using somewhat dated terminology but actually thinking of the same thing. Showing my age I think
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
rob@rar, I think you are thinking of "shoving off" your old inside(uphill) ski.... It is a very subtle extension... just enough to "feel the edge in snow" to start with.... as you really start to feel that little toe edge then continue to extend and also retract the other leg....
If you have not yet retracted your old outside(downhill) leg then you will not fall too far in AIUI
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Poster: A snowHead
rob@rar wrote:
FastMan wrote:
rob@rar, this response of Little Tiger's, is spot on. And her answer about the balance question is too. Creating a state of imbalance IS THE GOAL of ILE. It's that state of imbalance which causes the body to move across the skis, and into the new turn. By doing this, we're harnessing the external forces acting on us, and using them to do our bidding. Let the forces do the work, and we don't have to.
I appreciate that you are trying the get the skier to topple early onto his new edges, but surely that acts within a situation of dynamic balance? If you're so far out of balance don't you fall over?? I'm sure I'm not the only one who has fallen inside because I've toppled too far, too quickly. Please tell me I'm not the only one.
No, of course you're not.
It's this very state of balance equilibrium which intimidates people when first learning to do an arc to arc turn. They have to move from one state of stable balance, though a state of imbalance, and into another state of stable (yet dynamic) balance. It's a scary thing the first times, that feeling of being out of balance and falling downhill into the abyss. But as the ski engages again, new turn forces are created, and equilibrium is re-established.
A mechanism you can use to fine control the process of going through the balance-imbalance-balance process is the flexion of the old outside (downhill) leg. Not allowing it to free flex as the tipping downhill proceeds can add a bit of pressure to that foot, which slows the cross over, and allows forces to build before the CM gets to far ahead in the tipping process. Make sense?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar wrote:
I appreciate that you are trying the get the skier to topple early onto his new edges, but surely that acts within a situation of dynamic balance? If you're so far out of balance don't you fall over?? I'm sure I'm not the only one who has fallen inside because I've toppled too far, too quickly. Please tell me I'm not the only one.
You'll be falling "outside"!
Remember, you're extending your INSIDE leg (maybe even retracting your outside leg). So if you gone too far and topple over, you're falling over to the "outside" ("outside" of your old turn, though "inside" of the new turn, which at this stage hasn't started jsut yet).
In reality, most of us rarely fall outside. Most of us topple over to the INSIDE because we have our CM to far to the inside, putting too much pressure on the inside skis, etc...
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
little tiger wrote:
rob@rar, I think you are thinking of "shoving off" your old inside(uphill) ski.... It is a very subtle extension... just enough to "feel the edge in snow" to start with.... as you really start to feel that little toe edge then continue to extend and also retract the other leg....
If you have not yet retracted your old outside(downhill) leg then you will not fall too far in AIUI
This is good too! The slower and easier you push down on the uphill foot (little toe edge), the more gradually pressure will transfer to that foot, and the more slowly the cross over process will take place. Slowing it way down like this when first learning makes it much easier to feel and control the process.
A mechanism you can use to fine control the process of going through the balance-imbalance-balance process is the flexion of the old outside (downhill) leg. Not allowing it to free flex as the tipping downhill proceeds can add a bit of pressure to that foot, which slows the cross over, and allows forces to build before the CM gets to far ahead in the tipping process. Make sense?
Yes, that makes perfect sense. But doesn't that flexion of the outside leg happen at the same time and the same rate as extension of the inside leg, enabling the centre of mass to crossover the skis.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
abc, no it is his OLD inside leg... on its way to being the OUTSIDE leg that is extending... so he can fall in...if it is later in the transition...
I appreciate that you are trying the get the skier to topple early onto his new edges, but surely that acts within a situation of dynamic balance? If you're so far out of balance don't you fall over?? I'm sure I'm not the only one who has fallen inside because I've toppled too far, too quickly. Please tell me I'm not the only one.
You'll be falling "outside"!
Remember, you're extending your INSIDE leg (maybe even retracting your outside leg). So if you gone too far and topple over, you're falling over to the "outside" ("outside" of your old turn, though "inside" of the new turn, which at this stage hasn't started jsut yet).
In reality, most of us rarely fall outside. Most of us topple over to the INSIDE because we have our CM to far to the inside, putting too much pressure on the inside skis, etc...
No I don't think so - I described falling to the inside of the turn. The only time I fall outside the turn is when I manage the pressure badly and get high-sided
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
little tiger, I know. But either he's new turn got initiated successfully, in which case he would stay upright just fine. Or he falls over WITHOUT initiated the new turn (and falling over to the outside of his OLD turn).
After all it is free
After all it is free
FastMan wrote:
The slower and easier you push down on the uphill foot (little toe edge), the more gradually pressure will transfer to that foot, and the more slowly the cross over process will take place. Slowing it way down like this when first learning makes it much easier to feel and control the process.
Is ILE a slower transition? I've just done a little bit of slalom (rather badly) and the last thing I wanted was to slow down my transition! It was already waaay too slow!
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As people are now getting a better grip on the principles, it might warrant another look.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
rob@rar wrote:
Yes, that makes perfect sense. But doesn't that flexion of the outside leg happen at the same time and the same rate as extension of the inside leg, enabling the centre of mass to crossover the skis.
No you START by extending the (old) inside(AKA uphill) leg.... that is why it is an ILE transition...
the start with extension is the defining part of this transition type... so your old inside extension is leading your old outside relaxation...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
abc wrote:
little tiger, I know. But either he's new turn got initiated successfully, in which case he would stay upright just fine. Or he falls over WITHOUT initiated the new turn (and falling over to the outside of his OLD turn).
There's a third option: being on your new edges already, but driving your hips too far, too fast so that your centre of mass is so far outside your base of support that your skis can't catch up with you no matter how much edge angle you have on them to whip them around.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
FastMan, thanks for clearing up which side of the hip should lead.
what happens though if the skier is waist breaking and the old inner hip has collapsed. does ILE force the hip forward or do you end up with too much counter with the new outer ski lagging?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rob@rar wrote:
FastMan wrote:
The slower and easier you push down on the uphill foot (little toe edge), the more gradually pressure will transfer to that foot, and the more slowly the cross over process will take place. Slowing it way down like this when first learning makes it much easier to feel and control the process.
Is ILE a slower transition? I've just done a little bit of slalom (rather badly) and the last thing I wanted was to slow down my transition! It was already waaay too slow!
The speed of cross over in ILE can be controlled via the aggressiveness of the push down, and a bit of muscular supplimentation when needed. But generally it is not conducive to negotiating slalom race courses. ILE is in it's glory as an arc to arc transition while freeskiing, but race courses require more pivot entries, so retraction is usually a better choice.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
abc wrote:
little tiger, I know. But either he's new turn got initiated successfully, in which case he would stay upright just fine. Or he falls over WITHOUT initiated the new turn (and falling over to the outside of his OLD turn).
I was supposing he starts transition OK and then over relaxes old outside(new inside) - too much too fast and sort of falls into his new turns inside...
but I can see it your way now you describe it that way... he could fall before he hits neutral and so be falling out...
As people are now getting a better grip on the principles, it might warrant another look.
I've looked at those video a lot (and stepped through them frame by frame on the youcanski.com website) and for the life of me I can't see any difference in rate or range of the inner leg movements compared to their outer leg. It just looks like one seamless package to me. Smooth and coordinated. Obviously their inner leg is extending, but it seems to me that is balanced by an outer leg flexion. Maybe it's more of a subtle movement than I assumed it to be?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
skimottaret wrote:
FastMan, thanks for clearing up which side of the hip should lead.
what happens though if the skier is waist breaking and the old inner hip has collapsed. does ILE force the hip forward or do you end up with too much counter with the new outer ski lagging?
Yes, focusing on the forward driving of the new inside hip should go a long ways toward eliminating the collapsing of the new inside hip/half. If the problem persists, I'd suggest some time working on the Schlopy drill. It's a great complimentary drill.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rob@rar, yes veeeeeeerrryyyy subtle I would have said.... My instructors direction was that I just "feel" that edge in the snow... not really "push" that foot down to start....
For me it still feels that way - not much more than focusing on that edge... just adding a shade more pressure... then feeling it all start.... once I have done a few it seems to become easier.... I still need to do some slow transitions to dial in before I can try faster ones.... I need a lot more practice until they are really an owned movement....
As people are now getting a better grip on the principles, it might warrant another look.
I've looked at those video a lot (and stepped through them frame by frame on the youcanski.com website) and for the life of me I can't see any difference in rate or range of the inner leg movements compared to their outer leg. It just looks like one seamless package to me. Smooth and coordinated. Obviously their inner leg is extending, but it seems to me that is balanced by an outer leg flexion. Maybe it's more of a subtle movement than I assumed it to be?
Yes, it is subtle. A minor extension of the old inside leg kicks things off, and sets the CM in external force driven lateral motion, and the new inside leg relaxes and flexes to allow the process to happen. If the new inside leg wasn't allowed to flex, the process would come to a screeching halt. When done well, it's a very simple and flowing process, as displayed in the video. "A seamless package": yes, great description!
Yep, that's a great one. Hit the VIEW FULL SCREEN option in the upper right hand corner of the screen. Focus on the old inside (uphill) leg at the beginning of the transition between turns. Leg extends, body starts moving downhill
FastMan, thanks, that's much clearer in my mind now. I think sometimes there's not much of a line between something which is a good mental trigger and something which is a real, albeit subtle, movement. I think at my level of skiing the ILE is much closer to a mental trigger, maybe with the exception of very long radius carved turns when I'd have the time to start the turn with a slight ILE.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rob@rar wrote:
I've looked at those video a lot (and stepped through them frame by frame on the youcanski.com website) and for the life of me I can't see any difference in rate or range of the inner leg movements compared to their outer leg.
Look right as Nyberg comes through the belly of turn... his inside leg is flexing... then you see it start to extend... the outside leg has not yet started to flex.... his kneecap moves just that fraction down before anything else happens to start to finish the old turn....
I can see it in two of the early turns - one has red gate behind him next has blue to side and behind him
After all it is free
After all it is free
rob@rar, remember this process is starting when the skier is at maximum edge angle.... because the ILE provides the mechanism for decreasing edge angle (gait machanics)... so look to that point in video
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little tiger wrote:
I can see it in two of the early turns - one has red gate behind him next has blue to side and behind him
Is there any chance you could capture the relevant frames and post them. I've just stepped through the Nyberg video frame by fame, back and fore, and I just can't see it. If you could post just one frame where he begins a turn with an ILE I'll be able to find it in the video then step around the frame to try to see what's going on.
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