 Poster: A snowHead
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CANV CANVINGTON, A great ending, admirable principles shown by all.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Jump off lift,
Rest of group - check
Poles back on - check
Large Balls as required for next run - DOH!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm a little bit of a gear guy but I also do like to keep my bags to a minimum ie <15kgs can never see point of much more. On leaving chalet it's
lift pass
sun glasses
gloves
rucksac (for everything else)
sun cream
brain:~/
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Yoda wrote: |
| Megamum, if you had been to helinick´s talk at the EoSB you would have learned that many deaths in avalanche burials are apparently due to the exhaled CO2 being unable to escape from the vicinity of the victim´s nose and mouth and thus asphyxiating the buried person. |
Sounds implausible if the carbon dioxide cannot get out the oxygen cannot get in. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The very first day- or preferably the previous evening, before any serious drinking has begun - requires a little thought. Thereafter, a special place is earmarked in the room for what I've taken off at the end of the day (or its clean equivalent) plus what's come out of my pockets (inc. replenished stocks eg Kleenex). That way, the morning departure can be conducted on hung-over auto-pilot. At the top: tighten bootclips, check pockets are zipped up, and point skis downhill. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Fill rucksack with necessary bits and bobs, Leatherman, drinks, mars bars, tissues, camera, video, gloves, scarves, wallet, sunglasses/goggles etc. walk to slope, take out gloves & googles and enough cash for the daily lift pass, give rucksack to DH head for the pass office and then the lift!!
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Check boots are in ski mode not walk. And off. You can put your pole straps on while moving.
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bhmandminx, dead right buddy - off the chairlift... hands into pole straps on the little run-off slope...push past the boarders strewn everywhere...and GO 
CD.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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chrisdavis, I thought that we just me in anti-faff mode!
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Anything that needs to be faffed with can be faffed with on the lift. If on my own, it's just straight off the lift and away. However, if skiing with a bunch of faffers, it's more normally a case of ski off lift, look over shoulder to check everyone is there and then stop and wait while they all faff 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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T Bar, Megamum, Yoda, I think you are all right
Asphyxiation is a combination of lack of oxygen and build up of carbon dioxide due to a difficulty with breathing.
When the avalanche stops, the snow sets solid around you. You can't even open your eyes.
The key is to get a space in from of your face (see Pistehors). I would add breath in deeply to give your chest and abdomen room for breathing.
Then stay calm. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I've not checked, but as I understand it a big problem is the small space in front of the mouth melts a little, and makes a soggy mass a fraction further out where moisture in the breath condenses and freezes and is even less permeable to gasses. The exit area from the Avalung is a larger area and is less liable to this.
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| Rossfra8 wrote: |
| The only check i make is zips |
Oh my gawd, there is nothing worse than speeding down to a restaurant, clambering down slippery steps to the basement loos, only to find the wiener has suffered major frostbite in the descent! 
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You know it makes sense.
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Does anyone else find, at bottom of the run, that the only open pocket will be the one with the car keys in ?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| ski wrote: |
| Does anyone else find, at bottom of the run, that the only open pocket will be the one with the car keys in ? |
No. It will be the one that now doesn't have the car keys in.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Caspar, you calling me a faffer?
hands in pole straps and wait with Caspar for the other faffers
I do try to put stuff in a pile in the hotel room to make the auto pilot function better in the morning tho
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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mistermouse, Not at all. It's the others....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skis clipped
boots tight
cards, cash and phone on inside pockets
hat on
glasses/goggles on
boots tighter
gloves on
straps off!
Go!!!!
Sun cream? Lip salve? what they then?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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S£%t - forgot to take cat tracks off 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Nearly 2 whole pages and not one mention of a hip flask 
CD.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| halfhand wrote: |
| S£%t - forgot to take cat tracks off |
Doesn't that prevent the first of the things listed in your previous post?
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chrisdavis, Oh yes - normally Lagavulin, but I don't have to check that, that's always there. I once dropped it on a fairly steep slope (offpiste but old snow) because I tried to get it out with gloves still on. I had to chase it about 200 yards down the mountain, till finally I got below it and caught it.
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PisteHead, My Leatherman has proved invaluable to me. Using the hex keys we had to take a leaking tank off a motorbike on tour this year. With a full set of hex keys/screwdrivers it will also adjust ski boot buckles and bindings. I've also seen one of the guides fix a jammed buckle on an avi transceiver during a previous snowheads trip using one. However, I doubt I'd bother sticking it in my rucksack unless venturing off piste.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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T Bar, O2 can permeate to some extent, but exhaled CO2 can build up to lethal levels very quickly. A lot of trapped cavers die due to CO2 build up in confined spaces. I'd guess an avilung may prove handy if trapped in a tree well also.
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| Scarpa wrote: |
| PisteHead, My Leatherman has proved invaluable to me. Using the hex keys we had to take a leaking tank off a motorbike on tour this year. With a full set of hex keys/screwdrivers it will also adjust ski boot buckles and bindings. I've also seen one of the guides fix a jammed buckle on an avi transceiver during a previous snowheads trip using one. However, I doubt I'd bother sticking it in my rucksack unless venturing off piste. |
I carry my leatherman (Charge Titanium is anyone is interested) all the time when not skiing and would feel naked without it. I carry a Swiss army knife when skiing as it is less bulky than the leatherman.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Sage, Charge Ti for me too... I use it in work a lot. The socketted tool is a must for dismantling jobs. My 20 odd year old SAK hardly sees the light of day now 
I do put up with the extra weight over the knife when skiing as when combined with a few cable ties of various sizes the pliers allow you to make strong impromptu repairs to broken kit such as ski poles. For winter climbing a serrated blade is a must for cutting lengths of frozen rope/tat for setting up V threads or slings when abbing.
Oh - and the file and diamond file allow sharpening in the field for ice tool points and dings in ski edges.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I've got the PST II. The pliers are brilliant - I've lost count of the number of things they've been handy for. Mind you if I've got my handbag with me (and I often take it to the slope and leave with DH) then we could probably cope with WWIII. It can produce various bits and bobs, including, but not limited to the leatherman, 2 swiss army knives, a metal teaspoon and metal fork, a torch, 3 tape measures, 2 pairs of rubber gloves, tin of Nivea, lip salve, tissues, insect bite cream, plasters, 2 x resucitation face shields, numerous biro's, note books, PDA, scientific calculator, rubber bands etc.
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TRANSCEIVER… check… 8…
PROBE… unused but test anyway… 7…
SHOVEL… check... still in wrapper... 6….
AVALUNG… check speed of tube to mouth… 5…
Check 4,...... off piste wording of Insurance policy, check, not sure, stay on piste, check, 
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You know it makes sense.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| ... leatherman, 2 swiss army knives, a metal teaspoon and metal fork, a torch, 3 tape measures, 2 pairs of rubber gloves, tin of Nivea, lip salve, tissues, insect bite cream, plasters, 2 x resucitation face shields, numerous biro's, note books, PDA, scientific calculator, rubber bands etc. |
How big is your handbag? - 3 tape measures??
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Sage, BIG!! Handy as they double up as string, childrens makeshift reins esp. when they were younger and a threat was needed, I can loan one to mum if we are in different parts of the store, you can use tape measures for all sorts of things - mind you three might be overkill - I had a session when I couldn't find them the other week bought another one so now I've got three. I was a Girl Guide when I was younger - Be Prepared and all that.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Us boarders have a hard enough time making sure our trousers are pulled up! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Megamum, you are a total fruitcake.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Scarpa,
I suspect the two situations are not entirely analogous.
Caves may have areas of stagnant air, where if there is CO2 production from chemical reactions or biological output there is a build up of CO2 exacerbated at depth because when there is no air flow or turbulence the heavier CO2 will sink although there will be reduced oxygen it may still be enough to support life.
In an avalanche however you will already be at altitude in a reduced oxygen environment and an initially normal CO2 environment. The rate of carbon dioxide rise cannot be greater than the rate of oxygen depletion as you will require oxygen to generate the carbon dioxide, a normal rate would be approx 250 mls of oxygen consumption for every 200 mls of CO2 production approx every minute. If CO2 cannot escape then oxygen cannot get in so you will get a more rapid depletion of an already diminished oxygen environment than you will a build up of CO2.
At altitude if you reduce your breathing without any depletion of oxygen the fall in oxygen in your lungs will kill you before the build up of carbon dioxide does.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Lizzard, Well I've baked and eaten sufficient for this to be at least partly right
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| halfhand wrote: |
straps off!
Go!!!!
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Absolutely. Using the straps is an invitation to your poles, when you fall, either to combine with you in intimate and uncomfortable ways, or to dislocate one or more of your limited stock of fingers and thumbs, or both.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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T Bar, It may not be quite that simple. Following taken from
http://www.worldcongress2007.org.uk/images/Grissom%20Avalanche%20syllabus%20World%20Congress%20Scotland%202007.pdf
Respiratory Physiology of Avalanche BurialAcute asphyxiation during avalanche burial may occur if inhaled snow occludes the upper airway. More commonly, asphyxiation during avalanche burial is due to re-breathing expired air and occurs during the first 15 to 30 minutes of avalanche burial if there is no air pocket for breathing. Inspired air contains 21% oxygen (O2) and less than 0.03% carbon dioxide (CO2), while expired air contains about 16% O2 and 5% CO2. Rebreathing expired air results in progressive hypoxia and hypercapnia that will eventually result in death from asphyxiation. An air pocket in the snow for breathing can delay asphyxiation during avalanche burial. The larger the air pocket the greater the surface area for diffusion of expired air into the snowpack and diffusion of ambient air from the snowpack into the air pocket, and the longer the survival time before death occurs from asphyxiation. Ice mask formation around the avalanche victim’s face will accelerate asphyxiation by preventing diffusion of expired air away from the air pocket in front of the mouth. Ice mask formation occurs when water in heated and humidified expired air freezes on the snow surface in front of the face forming a barrier that is impermeable to diffusion of air. The physiology of asphyxiation from breathing with an air pocket in the snow was demonstrated in a study by Brugger and colleagues( where subjects breathed into one or two liter volume air pockets in snow of similar density to avalanche debris (density 150 to 600 kg/m3 or 15 to 60 % water). Subjects sat outside a snow mound and breathed through an air-tight mask connected by respiratory tubing to a one or two liter volume air pocket in snow. The initial fraction of inspired oxygen (FIO2) in the air pocket was 21%, and the initial fraction of inspired carbon dioxide (FICO2) was near 0%. As expired air was rebreathed in the air pocket, FIO2 decreased to about 10% and FICO2 increased to about 6% over 30 minutes (Figure 2). These changes in O2 and CO2 in the air pocket resulted in a decreased arterial O2 saturation as measured by a pulse oximeter (SpO2 %) and an increased end tidal CO2 (ETCO2) partial pressure. Most subjects were not able to complete the entire 30 minutes of the study and had to stop secondary to dyspnea, hypercapnia, and hypoxia, but some subjects reached a plateau of physiologically tolerable oxygenation and ventilation parameters and were able to breathe for a full 30 minutes with the air pocket in the snow. Brugger and colleagues suggest that an equilibrium may occur where the FIO2 and FICO2 in an air pocket reach a plateau within a physiologically tolerable range and the avalanche victim may survive prolonged burial. It should be emphasized that this may occur even with small air pockets, as hasbeen observed in the extrication of survivors of avalanche burials of up to two hours in duration(6). Radwin and colleagues(19) demonstrated that there is sufficient ambient air in densely packed snow to permit normal oxygenation and ventilation as long as all expired air is diverted out of the snowpack. They studied subjects totally buried in dense snow while inhaling air directly from the snowpack (density 300 to 680 kg/m3 or 30 to 68 % water) through a two-way non-rebreathing valve attached to respiratory tubing that diverted all expired air to the snow surface. Subjects maintained normal oxygenation and ventilation for up to 90 minutes. This study demonstrated that there is sufficient air for breathing in snow of similar density to avalanche debris, as long as expired air is not rebreathed. This is the principle behind a breathing device designed to prolong survival during avalanche burial (The AvaLung, Black Diamond Equipment, Ltd., Salt Lake City, Utah) (Figure 3). This breathing device allows inspiration of air from the snowpack via a one-way inspiratory valve and then diverts expired air around to the back via a one-way expiratory valve. The device also has the advantage of preventing ice mask formation. The limitation of the device is that expired air permeates around the buried person’s body and through the snow and eventually contaminates inspired air.
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Scarpa,
I could not download the article which sounds interesting .
The argument is slightly a semantic one as pointed out by Jonpim, earlier, but I think it is the lack of oxygen that is going to do the damage rather than the increase in carbon dioxide, the main problem with rebreathing the expired air is that it is oxygen depleted not that it is CO2 enhanced. In the quote you have given above the oxygen level has decreased from 21% to 10% and the CO2 has increased to 6%. This level of carbon dioxide will not be doing any harm, however at 2000m the ambient oxygen will have dropped to a level that is just about compatible with life in a fit person, it will be the equivalent of taking someone up to 8000m without acclimatisation. The carbon dioxide may be doing a little added damage, (It will be stopping the body from carrying oxygen) But the main life threatening problem is the lack of oxygen.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Tue 6-11-07 8:30; edited 2 times in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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A simple, daft post designed to diffuse the boredom of the asylum in which we all exist has become hijacked by a complex thesis on hypoxia, hypercapnia and completeobollockosis. Go have your avalanches and enjoy.
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