 Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, this is why I've usually gone with British organisations in France, but I could imagine it being a problem elsewhere. Vive la TT, l'Eurotest et BASI.
little tiger, in recent times I've usually been where there is a choice of ski school and for the family gone for the one with the best reputation. So far it's only the British ski schools that've done well. For myself I've either gone with a group organised by a specific trainer, used a British ski school or gone specially to ski with someone I know is there. The coming season I'm likely to be contacting the ski school in advance to ensure someone suitable.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ski instructors will probably be like every other industry.
~10% of staff will be great.
~70% will be good or average.
~20% will suck.
On balance, full-timers are more likely to be better than part-timers. They train more.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| slikedges wrote: |
| rob@rar, this is why I've usually gone with British organisations in France, but I could imagine it being a problem elsewhere. Vive la TT, l'Eurotest et BASI. |
It was only by (tragically bad) luck that I became friends with a BASI Trainer one summertime and I was persuaded to give ski school another try, with Masterclass (which eventually became Ski Supreme) in Courchevel. After a fairly disheartening process of unpicking all my bad habits and trying to put it back together again I discovered how much of a difference good instruction can make, both to technical development as well as overall enjoyment of skiing. The conclusion I came to during that process was that unless you had a personal recommendation it was not so much the choice of ski instructor (which is often a matter of good or bad luck) but the choice of ski school which is most critical. So, like you, I've gone with British ski schools in France, happily paying the premium they charge, and have never had a bad experience.
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rob@rar, was that gareth roberts?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| rob@rar, was that gareth roberts? |
No, before Gareth's time (although I've skied with him a few times since). It was Dave Renouf.
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Ah you see I had a bad experience with a British instructor back home in Oz... so I'd not have automatically chosen a British ski school....
and the European instructors I had were all pretty damn good... but then I have skied with Austrians at home and they have always been very good.... and our Swiss imports always come with pretty good reports as do the Czechs.... We don't seem to get many French... although one of my instructor friends did bring one back from Val d'Isere and she was VERY good in the bumps... but they broke their engagement off and she did not return...
So I guess some of it is in luck of the draw...
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rob@rar, tried but failed (Easter) to get a pvt with gareth while my kids were with kenny dickson...had been with phil the week before and had had no lessons for myself planned for 2nd week. BTW dave renouf very highly spoken of by a basi3 friend of mine.
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slikedges, Kenny is quite a character. Once told me I skied like a lamppost 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| slikedges wrote: |
rob@rar, I'm sure he meant it as a compliment  |
Nope, it was just a good description of the upright and fixed stance I had. Although it was said with humour it did give me a mental image to work with. He's a quality instructor.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, yep, left with absolutely no doubt about that. Supreme were very good - wasn't quite so sure about grumpy george though!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| slikedges, Kenny is quite a character. |
He always has been! I certainly remember him being so in Aviemore in the 70s, when he used to make hats.
No ski school can function without part-timers for the peak periods. I don't see why they shouldn't be just as good instructors as full-timers. Often, I would imagine that the attributes that would make them good ski teachers (patience, empathy, powers of persuasion, concise logic, etc) could also be highly useful in their "real" jobs.
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All sports are supported by a host of poorly paid (if at all) interested, dedicated, amateur trainers and coaches . . . why should skiing be any different? Yes there is a need for high-end very qualified training/teaching to be available from VERY competent sources but down at the dirty end of learning BASIC body and ski control we need people who can teach and finesse the very straightforward steps to safe enjoyment of our sport. It's not rocket science. it's the BASICS and if that's where an instructor excels then we should all be happy because that's where it all begins and without that we'll never get to the next level. Coaches who know, acknowledge, respect and teach to their limits are far better than those who just want the next badge and for whom, the client is just a step on that path.
I wrote the beginners guide to snowboarding not because I want to be a teacher but because my own experience coupled with that of many others was one of unpleasant pain and wasted time . . . basic understanding of how and why a board or ski does something as it slides or reacts to rider input is the FIRST part of learning and apocryphal tales tell me that this is NOT what normally happens in snowsports, the drive seems to be get peeps to slide as fast as possible with the just enough control to stop then tell them that they're an intermediate and move them to the next class (higher cost?) for more of the same at higher speeds.
The more I slide . . . the more I have to learn and the more I need a teacher that knows this and truly knows how or why. Amateur or professional is not the issue
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
To me, it's completely irrelevant what their jobs status is.
Are they a good teacher? Can they listen, understand and explain in a way that encourages, challenges and leads to improvement? Are they humble - does their skill outstrip their ego? Are they enthusiastic?
Sometimes the most enthusiastic are the part-timers who do it because they love doing it, rather than having it as their main source of income. (but enthusiasm doesn't mean they are good or bad teachers) |
What would you think if someone had all those attributes but couldn't ski for toffee? |
It's not a scenario I've come across before, but I have come across those who can ski reasonably well, but due to ego/prejudice they are not good teachers, or those who can ski well, but can't explain well.
From experience, enthusiastic teachers are enthusiastic students, so if they feel that ski instruction is their calling in life, then their enthusiasm will drive them to take lessons and become better (whether or not they like toffee).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Whitegold wrote: |
| On balance, full-timers are more likely to be better than part-timers. They train more. |
full-timers might teach more, but if they are not forced to re-train or be re-evaluated, then I doubt if they will have as much free-skiing time, or as much determination to re-train than part-timers.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Wear The Fox Hat, my only point in asking is that I think both teaching ability AND skiing ability is important. Either one without the other is not sufficient. Although I think there is a link between the two aspects, having mastery of one doesn't automatically guarantee mastery of the other. I think we probably have similar views on this?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| skimottaret wrote: |
There has been a bit of debate on various threads about the merits and quality of part time grade 3 BASI's, ASSI's, CI’s delivering instruction in the UK and abroad. I recon that most of the instruction delivered in the UK is by part timers and that there are only a very small number of full timers primarily employed as instructors.
I have been told by a BASI trainer that there are roughly 5,000 current BASI members with less than 500 grade 1's (including 70 or so trainers). I am guessing that only the grade 1's and a handfull of grade 2's are full time "professionals"
How do you feel about having your kids and other beginners taught by part timers?
Is BASI right to take over the level 1 and effectively killing off the ASSI qualification?
Should there continue to be a Club Instructor rating?
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I have been a ASSI instructor (part time) for nearly 20 years during that time I have taught for 100's of hours on the dry slope and I feel that the instruction I and many instructors like me give at the level we teach is as good as most full time instructors. If we are CI's or ASSI's we are only teaching on plastic and we are only teaching to a fairly basic level.
I have yet to see the full details of the new Level 1 qualification but from what I have heard it has not yet been fully thought out according to BASI it is pitched above the current ASSI but according to SSE it is somewhere between CI and ASSI level. The one good thing that might come about because of it is it might give SSE a wake up call.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, yes, I think we have fairly similar views. I just seem to read a lot of emphasis on being able to pass certain skiing skill tests, but don't read much on here about being able to actually do the teaching bit.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| I just seem to read a lot of emphasis on being able to pass certain skiing skill tests, but don't read much on here about being able to actually do the teaching bit. |
If you want to start a thread on the importance of good teaching I'd be really happy to contribute to it I think that all of those who have weighed in on the importance of skiing skills would probably do the same.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| rob@rar I just seem to read a lot of emphasis on being able to pass certain skiing skill tests, but don't read much on here about being able to actually do the teaching bit. |
Good point it would be great to see more threads about teaching techniques but there have been a few, the ski myths threads, using simple terrain or any of fastmans posts. What would you like to see, perhaps you could get one going 
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kevinrhead,
I have been told by a reliable source that it is betweem CI and ASSI, in order to make it achievable for CIs.
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easiski, slight thread creep. We met a guy on the train on Sunday who had a ski lesson with Luca a couple of years ago (when he had a broken arm/wrist?) . Small world.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret, well, the thread is there. (or is what I started not what you meant?)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Wear The Fox Hat, I did think you had hit the nail on the head WRT teaching and i did comment on your thread, but i recon that developing a discussion on a "soft" topic will prove more difficult than the contencious issue i started here
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Mr Contentious, perhaps if you had started it, it would have had more success!
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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kevinrhead, I think that's happening! In the 90s SCE (then English ski council) had huge credibility. The coaches award was highly regarded. Then, the old boys find themselves in a comfortable niche, take of their skis and start pontificating. Such a shame as it was a great scheme. Do you think SSE can claw back, or is this the end.
On the level thing ( BASI level 1) isn't an ASSI achievable for a club instructor? Funny old statement that as you need to be a CI to go for your ASSI. Therefore, the ASSI is achievable for CIs?
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Poster: A snowHead
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elbrus,
Sorry, i meant achievable as an entry level for someone who would before have got the CI.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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elbrus, The "achievable" wording is from the BASI website.
The description of the replacement for the old APC courses has been put up now as well.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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kevinrhead, THis was discussed on another thread http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=684875&highlight=dumbed#684875 and i believe BASI is pitching the level below the ASSI and above the CI.
elbrus, what is happening to the CI rating, will it carry on same as before?
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 13-09-07 18:51; edited 1 time in total
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| if you go to SSE's website they are very worried about the loss of income from their courses. |
I expect that's what BASI's initiative was all about in the first place. </cynicism>
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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laundryman, i think that is a bit cynical. there was a white paper a few years ago when all the bodies involved tried to lay out a "modernisation" programme. Little happened from what i can see until BASI finally steamed ahead. All the quango's are worried about their government funding levels.
does it really make sense to have all these bodies in the UK all certifying instructors to different standards, SSE, SSW, SSS, BASI and not to mention snowsport GB?
Personally i think for a small country with only a few mountains it is high time for some consolidation and increase in profile. BASI is now trying to do this by streamlining all the instructor courses and coaching awards into a single understandable framework. taking on clive woodword may also help get some press...
Hopefully SSE can concentrate on recreational skiing promotion and racing
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laundryman, It won't just be course fees that SSE lose. To do the new courses (and I suspect the refresher ones too) you need to join BASI, I suspect that some people will let their SSE registration lapse after this.
I have already paid my SSE registration for 2008, I don't see why I should pay a similar amount again to BASI in order to keep my qualification current.
The "Modernisation" proposals were not just about changing instructor education, they also included the idea of unified membership.
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| kevinrhead wrote: |
| I have yet to see the full details of the new Level 1 qualification but from what I have heard it has not yet been fully thought out according to BASI it is pitched above the current ASSI but according to SSE it is somewhere between CI and ASSI level. |
The guys at Gloucester reckon it's nearer to the SSE CI than ASSI, they also suggested to me that the SSS ASSI, which the BASI Level 1 is based on, was set at a lower level than the SSE ASSI.
I don't know how true that is but it strikes me, unless I've been misinformed, that a 5 day course (which, as I understand it, was what the SSS award has based on and now the BASI Level 1) has got to be pitched at a lower level than the SSE ASSI which involves far more training, practice and teaching over a longer time.
| Quote: |
| The one good thing that might come about because of it is it might give SSE a wake up call. |
Well I think they're going to have to bow to the inevitable eventually but I'm unsure whether the BASI Level 1 qualification is better although it makes sense to me to have all qualifications under the BASI umbrella.
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rjs, The coaching scheme looks remarkably similar to the CSCF.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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veeeight, I know, particularly the "trained" and "full qualification" levels for level 2.
The old system was based on CSCF as well, all the tutors were CSCF 3 or 4.
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As a relative newcomer to all this (I've just paid my first Associate Membership fee to BASI) I would like to see one body for instructors' qualifications (including race coaching badges), and one body to promote competition (from junior levels right up to WD/Olympic). Everything else is just preserving fiefdoms.
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FAQ
