 Poster: A snowHead
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I've got lost here about who's a loser, and how much we should be cossetting the poor dears.
However, there are several hundred skiers (from 6 to 60+) who every weekend throughout the summer who go out to rank themselves in how well/fast they can get down 100 metres of toothbrush which someone has littered with several poles, generally with the deliberate intention of tripping you up. In a typical entry of 150 there will be 149 losers. (OK if you consider the agegroups there will be 18 winners - and 132 losers). So do those of us who have always been 'losers' crawl away with our tails between our legs and onto the comforting couch of our psychiatrists? No, we go away and try to work out what we did wrong and how to do it better next time!
Actually it's not about being above- or below-average, but about being above- or below-target. Choose your targets so you get a reasonable mix of wins and losses. Last year, in my first year racing, I had a regular battle with one guy. I beat him in one series and he beat me in the other, but we were both quite a way off our agegroup leaders (and in that second series I actually came bottom of the regular entrants), and of course will never get close to the overall leaders. So there was some serious training last winter and this year I've moved on; my battles have all been with those in the leading group, but he's been having a royal battle with another guy. As another example, Nick W in his first year is a way off the back of his group, but he can see he's closing on the guy above him, and that spurs him on to improve.
So being a 'loser' is not a problem at all, and is actually an advantage, if you take the right attitude to it. Only when you have no competition does being a 'winner' or 'loser' get boring (and at the moment there's only one guy in the whole ranking system who can be expected to beat all-comers). In which case it's back to reason 1) and find a more appropriate pool to swim in.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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GrahamN, how true - I beat my 17-year-old for the first time this year, and I got within 0.2 seconds of the 19-year-old! 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| T Bar wrote: |
slikedges,
4) There is no real objective measure of skiing ability other than timed down a course that seems to work . |
I think timing can be pretty effective on piste, particularly if skiing through gates, because a certain level of technique to manouvere through the gates is implied, to achieve a particular standard of time (looking again at the quote I have taken above I see you refer to a "course" so perhaps on piste is what you are referring to). However I think timing is not so effective off piste.
Two people can ski the same pitch off piste in the same time but if one person is using brute force and the other has better technique, assuming the same level of fitness to start with, the brute force person might be knackered at the end of the pitch wheras the person with good technique will be raring to continue. That becomes very important when going off piste for a whole day with a group with regard to the capability of everyone to ski all day at the same pace. It's also important if you the group may have to ski more challenging cruddy stuff or tricky routes.
Off piste therefore I feel there has to be an assessment element with regard to technique as well.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| richjp wrote: |
| .........I think timing can be pretty effective on piste, particularly if skiing through gates, because a certain level of technique to manouvere through the gates is implied, to achieve a particular standard of time ......... |
Aye, there's the rub. I can potter through gates OK. I don't seem to be skidding. And to me the line seems neat. But the clock shows I am ponderous. Maybe I need some practice. Maybe I should be using the tail of the ski a bit to bite in the 'high g' part of the turn. I wonder if CSJ does instruction ..... 
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richjp,
When I was talking about the timeing on a course I was really meaning the kind of system that allows people to improve and compare their performance over a period of time or with other people if they wish by having a formal opener with a known handicap so that you can get an equivalence of performance over different courses and different times.
I agree that time down a slope when people are useing different techniques taking different lines etc. is not really a very objective measure but if you are skiing with people over a period of time on any kind of testing terrrain relative abilities usually become apparent fairly soon. What I would like though is something a little more like a golf handicap system that allows you to measure your own performance over time and communicate it with other people if you wish.
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| achilles wrote: |
| I can potter through gates OK. I don't seem to be skidding. And to me the line seems neat. But the clock shows I am ponderous. |
Actually, if you're not going fast you will be skidding - a lot. You just won't notice it because you'll be skidding all the way round the turn rather than having mostly carved sections to compare the small skidded bits against.
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| Maybe I should be using the tail of the ski a bit to bite in the 'high g' part of the turn. |
Quite the reverse - if you try to hit the tails on the high-g part that will cause the skid (as I demonstrate, frequently  , to my cost). You need to get the ski to bite at the entry to the turn (preferably at say 1 o'clock rather than 3 or 4), and let your legs fold up in the high g part to absorb the extra pressure and prevent the edges breaking away. (There is of course a whole load more that needs to go on as well.)
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| T Bar wrote: |
| What I would like though is something a little more like a golf handicap system that allows you to measure your own performance over time and communicate it with other people if you wish. |
There is, here. This is the ranking for national artificial slope competitions, with 6 points representing you being 1% slower than the British champion (in theory anyway). Below 80 points you're poo-poo hot, 80-150 you're a pretty competent skier (for an amateur, say 'expert' on most punter scales), 150-250 is quite reasonable (say 'advanced'), above 250 you have some work to do. There's another one for domestic snow competitions, and of course the FIS one for international competitions.
This of course only shows how good you are at essentially piste skiing. It's a tougher job to quatify off-piste skill, but you could imagine something like the Derby de la Meije or the Red Bull races. And this addresses richjp's point - the guy who gets down the slope in good style is probably skiing well within himself, but the muscler is probably nearer his limit. If trying to get down against the clock I'm sure the two would separate big time. I think there could be significant problems with H&S with actually trying to do this though.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| T Bar wrote: |
| What I would like though is something a little more like a golf handicap system that allows you to measure your own performance over time and communicate it with other people if you wish. |
There is, here.. |
I know, there are systems like this for raceing like NASTAR in USA and the various Fleches in France. My point was that this is all for ski raceing and it would be good to have a system for skiing as a whole, (difficult because it is not competetive) that could evaluate realtive performance.
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T Bar, The system GrahamN, is also used for seeding races for those countries too. Nastar is a system to allow non-racers to compare themselves with seeded racers.
But why do we need to
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| evaluate realtive performance |
anyway ?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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T Bar, isn't that what internet forums are for? 
...actually, if you want to evaluate relative performance, then the way to do it is to get a video of an instructor/expert/... doing a run, then get a video of you doing it (if possible on the same day and either just before or just after the instructor)
Or, alternatively, video 10 people doing the run - all of them of differing abilities, then compare your video to them. (and get others to do the comparison as well)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| .....Actually, if you're not going fast you will be skidding - a lot. You just won't notice it because you'll be skidding all the way round the turn rather than having mostly carved sections to compare the small skidded bits against.... |
That does largely figure. I hired some high-performance, but new-to-me skis for race day at the EOSB. Didn't really get them to work for me until well after the race was over. Later in the day I was getting far more bite and angle and could feel the speed whipping up. So it just may have been not being used to strange skis - or maybe I tense up during a race. Or maybe I am incompetent. At the time, I put the lack of speed down to lack of confidence, and therefore not really working the skis - but I can see the skis may well have been skidding, too. It's be nice if one had the opportunity to nip down gates more often, timed- so that one began to get a feel for how one was doing. I know I could put myself down for a basic race-training course - but I am a bit long in the tooth for that sort of thing - and anyway, with only a 3 week ration of alpine skiing, I don't think I would want to spend a week on race training.
I wonder if we couldn't have a couple of days at the MSB working on technique, though.
PS. It would also be nice if admin didn't decide that, because I am incredibly ancient and therefore have quite a few weeks skiing under my belt, I must be an incredibly good skier and should ski almost last down the ruts. Perhaps for race purposes I could have a notional skiing experience more in line with my overall state in life - second childhood 
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Wed 11-07-07 15:11; edited 1 time in total
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achilles,
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know I could put myself down for a basic race-training course
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You could do that on the plastic, and not waste any time on snow at all !
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but I am a bit long in the tooth for that sort of thing
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My coach retired from racing last year. At the age of 77 
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You know it makes sense.
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| ski wrote: |
| .......You could do that on the plastic, and not waste any time on snow at all !......... |
That's a good point. Or maybe see what I can do at Castleford.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Yep, agree with all this. Comparisons don't have to be nasty or traumatising. They can be constructive, positive, a point of common interest, a focus for realistic attainment, someone or something to aspire to, a role model, a mentor etc etc. If someone makes them negative or uses them to denigrate, then they're just another idiot to be avoided. How is another question. I think timings have their place but they're not the only word...
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Poster: A snowHead
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| ski wrote: |
You could do that on the plastic, and not waste any time on snow at all !
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Skiing gates on snow is wasting time? Wash your mouth out with soap young man!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Megamum wrote: |
graeme, I know its rather shallow, but I see nothing wrong with having your ego boosted. It's very difficult to thrive without encouragement - I know I do much better with it. 
Edit
The above doesn't read quite as I intended - that is not to say graeme, that I think your comment suggested that there was something wrong with boosting someone's ego. |
the thing is megamum, apart from a few instructors on the site, your listening to the views/oppinons of so many people who basically know fook all. yeah maybe they can ski, but what qualifies them to make some of the statements they make? from what i have seen so far, the majority of folk here just want to create some kind of super safe ski slope, filled with ski clones in there own image.
i learnt from the k.i.s.s. way of teaching. enjoy your skiing above all else, dont worry about the small things (and yes its all small things), just go out and enjoy every damn minute to its maximum.
i will prob be slagged of for saying these things, whitegold does every time he says anything (and to be honest he is prob most sensible person on here), but so be it....lol
sick of hearing the same old narrow minded views spouted of on this site at times, safety safety safety...blah blah blah, ffs its a friggin extreme sport, or at least its meant to be, its supposed to be about pushing boundaries. dont go to fast, dont listen to music, get your boots here, dont get them there, that style ski is wrong, this style ski is right, it just never ends at times........lol
ok off rant now
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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graeme, My sport of skiing is in no way an extreme sport, and I would appreciate it if you didnt try and make it so by your actions.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Frosty the Snowman, but thats just it, why should i ever ride like you think i should be riding? i dont think....ooo that guy should go faster. i do what i do in the way i want to, because i can. my skills are certainly up to it, so why shouldnt i ride as fast as i possibly can because fts doesnt like it that way.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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graeme, Ride how you like, fall off any cliffs you like, hug a tree or two, but dont endanger me, my loved ones, friends, in fact anyone else apart from you and those that ski/board with you.
EDIT: Its like driving a car; do what you want on a track or closed road, but in the public domain you have a duty to others.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 11-07-07 23:16; edited 1 time in total
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graeme, because one day you might find yourself in a hot tub with him?
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Frosty the Snowman, your assuming that i am going to put you in danger, sorry but that is a huge miss assumption on your part. because i ride fast then you assume i am some kind of idiot, sorry but thats not the case. you think because of my speed then i am not in control.... sorry wrong again. just because your unable to ride like i do, does not mean i cant do it in a safe controlled manner.
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Frosty the Snowman, and guess what, i can ride this way with my headphones blasting in my ears
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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graeme, I have seen many fast, inconsiderate and dangerous skiers and far less fast and safe skiers. Your posts seem to intimate that you consider yourself first and others afterwards. The fast safe skiers I have seem think the opposite way round. If I have got it wrong then I am very sorry.
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| graeme wrote: |
| Frosty the Snowman, your assuming that i am going to put you in danger, sorry but that is a huge miss assumption on your part. because i ride fast then you assume i am some kind of idiot, sorry but thats not the case. you think because of my speed then i am not in control.... sorry wrong again. just because your unable to ride like i do, does not mean i cant do it in a safe controlled manner. |
Have you never crashed when going very quickly?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Frosty the Snowman, yes i ride fast (not all the time though), yes i push myself. but i am a very safe skiboarder. i just hate it when folk automatically say your unsafe and dangerous!!!!! how the hell do they know???? i am not talking up my skills in any way, no need to, i ride for me and me only. plus my chosen sport is the safest on the slopes
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| graeme wrote: |
| Frosty the Snowman, your assuming that i am going to put you in danger, sorry but that is a huge miss assumption on your part. because i ride fast then you assume i am some kind of idiot, sorry but thats not the case. you think because of my speed then i am not in control.... sorry wrong again. just because your unable to ride like i do, does not mean i cant do it in a safe controlled manner. |
Have you never crashed when going very quickly? |
i think the last spill i took was while doing a national snowblade race, cant remember the year possible 1998, at glenshee. didnt make the final because of that tumble
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| graeme wrote: |
i think the last spill i took was while doing a national snowblade race, cant remember the year possible 1998, at glenshee. didnt make the final because of that tumble |
So you can't guarantee 100% that you won't fall, even if it doesn't happen too often when you're skiing quickly. Would I be right to assume that when you do ski quickly you take into account the potential for a high speed fall to take you sliding down the slope into other skiers and boarders? Or do you just ski as fast as you like regardless of other slope users because you're a good skier?
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You know it makes sense.
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| ski wrote: |
But why do we need to
| Quote: |
| evaluate realtive performance |
anyway ? |
This question was what I was trying to answer in my reply to slikedges question in my first post on the thread.
For me the most important of the factors is to evaluate my performance relative to previous years. I have been skiing a little over 20 years and inspite of lessons and time on snow do not feel I have improved much if at all over the last ten, getting objective evidence of improvement or otherwise would be helpful to me.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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T Bar, Sorry - I misunderstood you !
Couple of thoughts - video yourself on a particular run each year - and see if the result changes - even a still photograph can show changes !
If (like me) you try a bit of racing, you can record your history of increasing underachievment with the results of each race. If not, then I think you need to resort to having some goals each year, and measure your progress against them.
The thing I was trying to say in my earlier post is that it's impossible (IMO) to judge peoples skiing ability with any useful accuracy from what they talk or post about it.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 12-07-07 13:23; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| graeme wrote: |
i think the last spill i took was while doing a national snowblade race, cant remember the year possible 1998, at glenshee. didnt make the final because of that tumble |
So you can't guarantee 100% that you won't fall, even if it doesn't happen too often when you're skiing quickly. Would I be right to assume that when you do ski quickly you take into account the potential for a high speed fall to take you sliding down the slope into other skiers and boarders? Or do you just ski as fast as you like regardless of other slope users because you're a good skier? |
How many "slow" skiers take into account the potential for sliding down the slope into other skiers and boarders?
While I myself is NOT a fast skier by most measure (I do ski faster than the absolute beginer), the few times I got hit from behind, were from clueless beginers/low intermediates going rather slowly BEFORE they slip, picked up speed and slide into me rather quickly.
Basically, I just don't see much correlation between speed and crashes. What I DO see is correlation between EXCCESSIVE SPEED and crashes. And my definition of "excessive" is a speed outside the skill of the skier/boarder.
That's why I actually PREFER steeper reds and blacks. Even though the skiers/boarders there does go rather faster than the majority on the blue and easy red, they seem to have plenty of control on where they're heading (and a general pattern of heading down the hill). While the skiers, and particularly boarders, on the easier slopes were heading every which way, often unable to stop when they need to!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| graeme wrote: |
i think the last spill i took was while doing a national snowblade race, cant remember the year possible 1998, at glenshee. didnt make the final because of that tumble |
So you can't guarantee 100% that you won't fall, even if it doesn't happen too often when you're skiing quickly. Would I be right to assume that when you do ski quickly you take into account the potential for a high speed fall to take you sliding down the slope into other skiers and boarders? Or do you just ski as fast as you like regardless of other slope users because you're a good skier? |
like i posted earlier, i have the skills to match the speeds i ride at, you can take that to mean the skills involve risk assesment also
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| graeme wrote: |
| you can take that to mean the skills involve risk assesment also |
Glad to hear it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ski,
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Sorry - I misunderstood you !
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No worries
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Couple of thoughts - video yourself on a particular run each year - and see if the result changes - even a still photograph can show changes ! ,you need to resort to having some goals each year, and measure your progress against them
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Good suggestion by you and WTFH There are practical problems though in as much as I do not have the technical skill to analyse my movements on video (or a videocamera at the moment) I think goals are good but as progress is again by small increments judging whether one has achieved them is difficult.
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The thing I was trying to say in my earlier post is that it's impossible (IMO) to judge peoples skiing ability with any useful accuracy from what they talk or post about it.
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I'm sure you're right, there was a slightly heated thread on this last year IIRC
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| T Bar wrote: |
There are practical problems though in as much as I do not have the technical skill to analyse my movements on video (or a videocamera at the moment) I think goals are good but as progress is again by small increments judging whether one has achieved them is difficult.
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Don't worry, there are plenty of us on here who don't have the technical skills to do MA, but that doesn't stop us! 
...but seriously, it's not even about detailled technical analysis (which is useful, if you can get a group of instructors to view your vid), but being purely aesthetic - if you can build up a collection of videos of you skiing, and you make improvements, you'll be able to spot which looks "better" and which looks "worse"
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| T Bar wrote: |
| Quote: |
The thing I was trying to say in my earlier post is that it's impossible (IMO) to judge peoples skiing ability with any useful accuracy from what they talk or post about it.
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I'm sure you're right, there was a slightly heated thread on this last year IIRC |
I don't agree. I think you can tell something with some accuracy if they are truthful, reasonably objective and have some perspective.
| Megamum wrote: |
veeeight, skimottaret, Thank you for protecting me from myself - bubble well and truly burst 
I'll admit to being a tad disappointed since the level below is still beginner. I wish there was a system of ski school for adults like the kids have - master certain skills and advance a level, at least you'd have tangible proof that you were achieving something rather than just a gut instinct that its feeling easier. Rather like driving, where you can still start at L plates, then get a licence, then an advanced licence, train as a driving instructor, and then as an advanced driving instructor and if along the way there is the opportunity even do some police pursuit driving skills. With skiing I can have all the lessons under the sun and still there is no proof that you can ski. The kids can go to any resort that recognises their system and the instructors know where they have got to, the only way I can be assessed is to waste part of a valuable lesson whilst the instructor watches my current skill level. That's why I hope my instructor of the last two years is still there again this year. English pupils are such a rare occurence at our resort that he remembered me!! |
I hope Megamum doesn't mind my copying this over from another thread, but for a lot of people I think her heartfelt expression of what she feels is missing strikes a chord. Perhaps this is why at a more advanced level people start doing qualifications which carry instantly recognisable credibility. I still think lots of the reasons I listed at the start of the thread are valid, and whether some people really don't need clearer attainable goals/micro-steps of achievement and external comparisons or just say they don't aside, there is obviously a desire amongst many for these, and no-one's given me any reason to think we shouldn't do it other than that oversensitive winners and losers might need therapy (sounds like they'd've needed it anyway ), un-English (not sure what that means today  ), it's un-PC (never cared for that, not about to start  ).
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slikedges, there was some talk on another thread about SnowSport UK offering some sort of award scheme whereby you can get graded. Not sure where or when this is done though.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, it's on this thread, but they aren't much promoted or supported by anyone, they're not recognisable, they lack any credibility, at the mo at least, imho
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FAQ
