 Poster: A snowHead
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AB Just noticed that you're in Northumberland.
Is the Phoenix factory outlet shop still going on the Amble trading estate ? If it is they'll probably do some decent mountain jackets.
If we get some snow this year pop down to Yad Moss near Alston for some local skiing. That'll be a good place to try out your goretex.
Although on 2nd thoughts with all the oil and grease dropping from the pylons and Pomas perhaps that not a good idea for your new jacket. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Do Phoenix still exist in the UK? The original Phoenix gear was great, but after the Karrimor takeover I bought a jacket and trousers which were made in Portugal. Not a patch on the originals for quality. I thought that the Phoenix directors then set up Omega, but what happened to them?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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My O'Neill jacket keeps me dry enough when skiing (not sure what fabric that is) but to be honest I'm looking for warmth more than anything else there. I'm sure it would be useless out in the Dales or the Lakes where I wear a Lowe Triplepoint hardshell, but you're right after a good days walk in pouring rain, everything is sodden. Probably as much from the fact that wet shell seems to breathe less than when dry. The only thing that I have found to keep me as dry as possible is my Musto offshore sailing oilies which are Gore-Tex but a much heavier guage than anything I've seen for skiing or walking. They're too heavy to climb a hill or ski in though., although it has crossed my mind!
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From what I've seen 3 layer Gore-Tex XCR looks like the way to go, although that Keela jacket does looks interesting. My last two jackets have been Berghaus Gore-Tex so I am inclined to change to a different brand this time. Perhaps Arcteryx if I can find somewhere local that sells them!
Is it cheaper to buy a jacket in the UK or in a French resort ?.
Peter S, I haven't heard anything about the Phoenix outlet for some time and don't see any trace in the yellow pages so I guess it is no longer there. Lets hope we get some snow this winter and I might make it to Yad Moss.
As suggested factory outlet shops can offer some good deals, but where are they ?
I know there is a Lowe Alpine outlet beside Castleford Xscape. Anybody know where the outlet shops for other ski/mountain equipment manufacturers are ?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hatfield Galleria has one. As well as the Regatta (and Craghoppers) and Mountain Warehouse shops, there's an independant one that does mainly Oakley stuff on the upper floor (though it's not very big). The shop on the lower floor is owned by the same bloke who also owns the Countryside shops in St. Chavanage and Cambridge. They're very good, if not especially cheap.
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There is a NorthFace one and a hellyhanson one at chesire oaks designer outlet got some kit there last year saved quite a bit
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The Tog24 factory shop is, suprisingly, at their factory in Heckmondwike. There's usually a very good selection of slight seconds at good prices, not just the last couple of years kit that they're looking to shift.
http://www.tog24.com/default.asp
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm with Skanky on this one. I don't think you can beat the breathability of Paramo gear, absolutely no damp clamy back even after a day skiing with a backpack on.
Also, I think I'm right in saying that the breathability of Goretex is virtually zero once the jacket 'wets out'. (might be wrong though).
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All breathable fabrics work on a similar principle, that of allowing water vapour through fabric but not water particles, in very humid conditions however (which includes torrential rain) they will not work as the level of water vapour outside the jacket can be higher than the level inside which prevents the process from working, however under ski conditions this is very very unlikely to occur so it doesn't really matter
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skanky, & DAVID F, I thought Paramo would be a bit warm for skiing, and it's not like you can just take a fleece out. I've no real experiance of it though.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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marc gledhill, it can be a bit warm for some people, apparently. I tend to run hot anyway and sweat no more in Paramo than in any other jacket I've worn. It's coped very nicely with a range of temperatures, shifts condensed sweat (not just water vapour). I have the Velez though, which is designed for more "active" use (shorter and less bulky), so that might help.
On the other hand, "a bit warm for skiing" is a little odd statement to me as I was skiing in -27 (wind chill) at times last winter. 
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skanky,  Yeah, lowest I've been aware of was -22 ambient at Val Thorens. But even then I never really felt the cold - other than on long slow chairs in shadow.
I've been much colder mountainbiking here in the Pennines than I ever have been whilst skiing.
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You know it makes sense.
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marc gledhill, well, as I said earlier I was skiing down to a warm, sunny valley with sunbathers and back up to a glacier with very strong winds (they had to shut the t-bar) and -27 wind chill (and it was very cold as my exposed bits would testify to) and the Velez coped with both. I think what you wear underneath it has some effect, too.
You may have been colder in pennines as the air would have been wetter? Not sure on the physics of that, though.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| skanky wrote: |
| You may have been colder in pennines as the air would have been wetter? Not sure on the physics of that, though. |
Here's another sad man remembering his thermodynamics and psychrometrics. (Physics man will be along in a minute  ) ......
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Latent heat of evaporation - This is where a liquid turns into a gas (e.g. When the kettle boils). When happens when you get out of the bath? you are cold at first and then even though the air temperature doesn't change as you dry out you are warmer. This is because the water on your body is turning into water vapour (Dalton's Law of Partial Pressures has something to do with it) and using the heat from your body to fuel the process. That's why we sweat, the evaportation of the sweat cools the body.
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Air as an insulating layer - All around us is a 'dead' layer of air which acts as an insulator, when air is blown onto us it breaks down this dead air and improves heat transfer. This is why air from a fan cools you down even though the air that is blown is at the same temperatue as the rest of the air in the room.
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More later .......
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Okay, but there are a few complicating factors. The main one is air saturation. If the air is saturated, then your sweat won't evaporate, so it won't cool you down. This is why you can feel a lot less comfortable in hot and humid than hot and dry.
So if you're out in cold and saturated air, any water on you will have trouble evaporating. Incidentally, the amount of energy required to make water evaporate is quite a lot, so evaporation is the best method humans have of keeping cool. Which is why some cloting that aids evaporation cools you in tropical conditions better than no clothing.
However, in order for water from the air to collect onto you, it has to condense which releases latent heat. This is how moist air (eventually) rises at a different rate than dry air as it cools more slowly.
Also, if water vapour has condensed out of the air, it can evaporate back into it, and the warmth from your body will raise the temperature of the air immediately around you to higher than the dew point, so raising its vapour carrying capacity. This could allow evaporation and any wind (whether natural or from skiing/biking) would take it away allowing more air in its place...but if the wind's too high can you warm it up enough?
Finally, moist air is warmer than dry air at the same pressure (or less dense at the same temperature), so that may have some effect.
I've done a cursory google but haven't yet found anything. I'll keep looking.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Skanky,
That's why I said "more later ...."
| skanky wrote: |
However, in order for water from the air to collect onto you, it has to condense which releases latent heat. This is how moist air (eventually) rises at a different rate than dry air as it cools more slowly.
Also, if water vapour has condensed out of the air, it can evaporate back into it, and the warmth from your body will raise the temperature of the air immediately around you to higher than the dew point, so raising its vapour carrying capacity. This could allow evaporation and any wind (whether natural or from skiing/biking) would take it away allowing more air in its place...but if the wind's too high can you warm it up enough? |
The heat comes from the body so I doubt the dew point of the internal surfaces would be low enough for moisture to re-condense. Maybe in sunny weather when there is a large solar gain which in turn causes a rise in internal jacket air temperature.
Anyway the main point I was trying to get to is that I believe breathability is the key in skiing and Goretex appears not to be the best material, it's the marketing that makes Goretex so popular. In most cases when it gets clamy and hot (e.g. after a long climb in the spring sun) opening underarm vents works much better for me than waiting for the Goretex XCR to breath. When there's rain/sleet the Goretex can't breath anyway so one might as well use a more breathable layer and an emergency waterproof.
The quickest drying material may not be the best in winter as it's using your heat to cool. Sweaty hot and then cold and damp cycles are typical of too fast a drying material. A system of layers that transports the water to the outer layers and then eveporates at a rate to maintain the right temperatue is the optimum. Here there is a warm but not too wet interior that will dry out without overcooling the body. Just buying an expensive Goretex Jacket doesn't ensure this but I believe it can be achieved for less with other materials and layers.
Just found a Mammut Jacket with Schoeller Drysking technology cheap so I'm going to put it to the test against the Arcteryx Goretex XCR Jacket.
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Helly Hansen Have a jacket in the white book using 3L Event fabric gets a good write up (called the SXR eVent jkt if your looking) at £350 but it does sound good i'm actually torn between that and the northface XCR one at the moment the HH loosing slihgtly because its light blue.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bootneck,
Have a look at the links I gave to the Montane Jackets further up the page.
They are made of soft textured, mini rip-stop 3 layer eVENT fabric and are almost half the price of the Helly Hanson.
The Montane SuperFly Event Waterproof won
TRAIL MAGAZINE: BEST IN TEST Multi Activity Jackets Feb 2004
TRAIL MAGAZINE: BEST LIGHTWEIGHT WATERPROOF JACKET August 2004
"Buy it if performance on the hill in any weather is what really matters to you. All the features are about as good as they can be, and the fabric is equal to anything else on the market in terms of waterfproofness and breathability. It's ideal for any outdoor action."
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Now that does sound good missed those links earlier I've been using northface kit for years and i'm reluctant to change but at the same time i'm willing to be converted so i may give one a chance have you used them DB?
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Ah may have found a problem there doesnt seem to be many pockets i do use a day sack most of the time but like the option not to when just messing around the piste with my mates
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DB, I think my point was the difference between warmer, moister air (Pennines) and colder, dryer air (high alps). What's good for one may make you feel colder in the other - I was just trying to work out why. But what you say makes sense.
Montane make good jackets, in my experience (not seen their eVent ones in the flesh...er eVent, though).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Having only just noticed Peter S's comment on the previous page, Not Sprayway, useless piece of rubish in comparrison with the Berghaus, mine started coming apart after 2 years compared with Berghaus 5 years at the same wear rate, the build quality is just not there which is why my third jacket was another Berghaus
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Have to agree there DG try northface too thier kit has never let me down either
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| bootneck wrote: |
| Have to agree there DG try northface too thier kit has never let me down either |
My Expedition System jacket lasted a couple of years climbing and skiing and then became about as much use as a tea-towel. I'm a long way from convinced that Goretex is of any particular use for ski jackets, the lifetime is just way too short. I realise all you UK guys have a new ski outfit each year but I prefer something a bit more robust personally
I am though far more impressed with Goretex in footwear than I would have expected to be.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I've found my goretex kit to hold up really well considering the abuse i give it. The only reason i'm replacing my jacket this year is it didnt hold up to well sliding down the road at 80mph when i came of my bike. Nearly all my friends have had the same jackets for about 4-5 years with no major problems. The only thing i could think of more robust is ike leathers or a suit of armour which would rust when skiing 
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Try Paramo - my jacket is 8 years old, and still waterproof.
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You know it makes sense.
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ski, you have to keep waterproofing it though 
That said, re-waterproofing involves bunging it in the washing machine with a cup of TX-Direct.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| ise wrote: |
| My Expedition System jacket lasted a couple of years climbing and skiing and then became about as much use as a tea-towel. I'm a long way from convinced that Goretex is of any particular use for ski jackets, the lifetime is just way too short. I realise all you UK guys have a new ski outfit each year but I prefer something a bit more robust personally |
My TNF Expedition jacket was bought in 1994 and has seen lots of action climbing, snowboarding and general travelling. A bit grubby now and some of the bottom seams are coming undone on the wear points (too much sitting on my ar$e in the middle of the piste just over the brow of the hill). Still perfectly waterproof though. I'll probably replace it soon but it has been a great bit of kit and very well made.
I'd swear by Buffalo if it wasn't for the fact that you look like a weirdo (not helped by the fact that my Buffalo top has a furry crotch strap). Still, i do sometimes wear my Buffalo under my goretex while boarding if it is really cold or i expect to spend lots of time in powder.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| ski wrote: |
| Try Paramo - my jacket is 8 years old, and still waterproof. |
It was still waterproof but not breathable as far as I could tell. That was back in around 1996 or so, it may have improved since then.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| ise wrote: |
| ski wrote: |
| Try Paramo - my jacket is 8 years old, and still waterproof. |
It was still waterproof but not breathable as far as I could tell. That was back in around 1996 or so, it may have improved since then. |
It is not only breathable, but it actually shifts liquid water (as opposed to just vapour), so you tend to get less wet inside (that's their claim, and it seems to work). It is however quite warm, so you might sweat more (esp. in 1996 when the "pump" liner was heavier, they've made it lighter in the latest range) - which will make it seem less breathable. They do tend to have plenty of venting options though.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Just found a Mammut Jacket with Schoeller Drysking technology cheap so I'm going to put it to the test
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DB, is this the New Age jacket? how much/where? i am also considering this jacket, so pls keep me posted. I have tried a couple of softshells recently and find that they fit me really badly. I am tall 6'2'' and slim, the med is too short and the large to baggy 
cheers.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| crispy wrote: |
| you can actually put your hand into a bucket of liquid nitrogen if you dip it straight in and don't hold any of the nitrogen on your hands. The liquid immediately vapourises due to the heat of your hand and forms a small layer of gas between your hand and the liquid thereby inhibiting heat transfer. Heat transfers poorly through a gas by conduction and so your hand is safe - for a short while!!! |
Repeated experiments of this nature wouldn't be why you're called "crispy", would it?
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| skanky wrote: |
| DB, I think my point was the difference between warmer, moister air (Pennines) and colder, dryer air (high alps). What's good for one may make you feel colder in the other - I was just trying to work out why. But what you say makes sense. |
Been thinking about this, used to live in Manchester, Derbyshire and have done a lot of walking in Northern England so I know about moist air. Was also in Obergurgl when it was minus 25 Deg C in the valley and ca minus 30 with a strong wind on the mountain.
If the humidity level in the air is high then all breathable waterproofs struggle to breath as DG says. I think what happens in the Pennines is that the water struggles to get out and the internal layers become much damper than they would in the high alps. Water has a much higher specific heat capacity than air (4.2 KJ/Kg K if I remember correctly) so your body has to heat the air and the water/moisture in the jacket. As you say when the air is moist and you are hot it becomes very uncomfortable so people fling open the jacket to cool down and get some fresh cold air in there. What happens next is that some of the moisture evaporates off but cools the moist garments/layers left behind. This results in a cold damp person who is convinced that the 400 quid jacket he bought isn't that good afterall.
Possible solutions -
1. What do you do when your cars windows steam up? Crack open the window. Why does this work? Because the specific moisture content of the dry cold air is less, as it mixes with the moist air and warms up it can absorb the moisture leading to a drop in % humidity. If you open the jacket at the collar the hot air rises out so that isn't a good solution. Cracking open the underarm vents a little has the same affect. This is why I believe underarm vents are so important.
2. Going for a jacket that has better breathability than Goretex may help a little (e.g. Schoeller Dryskin or eVent).
3. Accept that because of the laws of thermodynamics, psychrometrics, human biology and sod's law you are going to get wet. Look for materials that dry quickly but remain warm while doing so. (e.g. Dryskin Schoeller).
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DB, well I don't need to switch to anything as my jacket(s) have all coped with everything I've thrown at it so far (as I say, the makers claim that it shifts moisture as well as being breathable). Some jackets have vents even lower down the than even the armpits.
Basically though, goretex is a plastic bag and I'll be very surprised if I ever go back to using it again. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Ok been and looked at both the paramo and keela jackets and must say they both look fantastic. But the main thing i can see they lack is a bicep or wrist pocket, i find these ideal for your ski pass especially in sauze where you just wave your card over the sensors. A bit like alarm tags in stores. for some reason they dont work well in chest pockets and you look a bit daft rubbing you nipple up againt the gate. Any suggestions?
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Yes, find somewhere more discrete to rub your nipple!
(I'll see if I can think of something more sensible to suggest tomorrow)
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FAQ
) but you can actually put your hand into a bucket of liquid nitrogen if you dip it straight in and don't hold any of the nitrogen on your hands. The liquid immediately vapourises due to the heat of your hand and forms a small layer of gas between your hand and the liquid thereby inhibiting heat transfer. Heat transfers poorly through a gas by conduction and so your hand is safe - for a short while!!!
(I grew up in Munich).
